NATION

PASSWORD

Is chivalry good?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Privateer Stockholm
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 402
Founded: Mar 01, 2023
Ex-Nation

Is chivalry good?

Postby Privateer Stockholm » Wed Mar 01, 2023 1:52 pm

By chivalry,
here I mean the protectiveness by men and boys towards women and girls.
So please avoid discussions of other aspects of the code of medieval knighthood and whether the ideal I’m referring to, or other ideals in the code, were always or often followed in practice
(Unless where relevant).
My opinion
Personally, I support chivalry as in the best interests of both the genders concerned and society as well as being right, as a deontological principle, in itself.
Last edited by Privateer Stockholm on Wed Mar 01, 2023 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
News:
-Malmo taken as much of the rest of urban Sweden is nuked.
- The Captain-General is dead, long live the Captain-General!
- Captain-General dies leading his men.

User avatar
Northern Seleucia
Senator
 
Posts: 4677
Founded: Aug 29, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Seleucia » Wed Mar 01, 2023 1:54 pm

I have absolutely no issue with it.
The Federal Republic of Northern Seleucia
"That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom – and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth."
Слава Україні! - Glory to Ukraine!
Overview | Northern Seleucian Army | NDSS System | NS Policies | About Me| My Inspiration in Two Videos
National News: Enfield Couple Horrifically Shot to Death; Police Suspect Possible Homicide | Something Went Wrong in Jet Crash, Expert Says | If Railroad Strike Isn’t Settled Quickly, It May Last Awhile | New Study of Obesity Looks for "Significantly Larger" Test Group.

User avatar
Nilokeras
Minister
 
Posts: 2995
Founded: Jul 14, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Nilokeras » Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:08 pm

Privateer Stockholm wrote:So please avoid discussions of other aspects of the code of medieval knighthood and whether the ideal I’m referring to, or other ideals in the code, were always or often followed in practice
(Unless where relevant).


You cannot divorce an idea from its historical context. Chivalry, as a code of behaviour, was always an affectation of the elite in medieval society that was never particularly congruent with reality. The same medieval military class that wrote flowery poems about courtly love had absolutely no problem raping and murdering peasant and lower class women on a large scale while on campaign. Chivalry was always, and is always, a deeply class-oriented and misogynistic belief system that placed certain women on a pedestal at the expense of others, and even for that privileged class of noble women expected impossible standards of behaviour while circumscribing their rights and freedoms. Its modern iterations are no different.
Last edited by Nilokeras on Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Privateer Stockholm
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 402
Founded: Mar 01, 2023
Ex-Nation

Postby Privateer Stockholm » Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:26 pm

Its modern iterations are no different.

Hence why Virginia hasn’t executed a woman (of any race or class) in over 12 years.
had absolutely no problem raping and murdering peasant and lower class women on a large scale while on campaign

Then why was this a capital offence in England and the Holy Roman Empire?
Also, when did Saladin ever commit or order rape?
Last edited by Privateer Stockholm on Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
News:
-Malmo taken as much of the rest of urban Sweden is nuked.
- The Captain-General is dead, long live the Captain-General!
- Captain-General dies leading his men.

User avatar
GuessTheAltAccount
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1894
Founded: Apr 27, 2021
Democratic Socialists

Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:26 pm

Nilokeras wrote:
Privateer Stockholm wrote:So please avoid discussions of other aspects of the code of medieval knighthood and whether the ideal I’m referring to, or other ideals in the code, were always or often followed in practice
(Unless where relevant).


You cannot divorce an idea from its historical context. Chivalry, as a code of behaviour, was always an affectation of the elite in medieval society that was never particularly congruent with reality. The same medieval military class that wrote flowery poems about courtly love had absolutely no problem raping and murdering peasant and lower class women on a large scale while on campaign. Chivalry was always, and is always, a deeply class-oriented and misogynistic belief system that placed certain women on a pedestal at the expense of others, and even for that privileged class of noble women expected impossible standards of behaviour while circumscribing their rights and freedoms. Its modern iterations are no different.

Damn it, Stockholm, quit making me agree with Nilo! :p

On a sidenote, isn't chivalry also unfair to men and boys with medical conditions that leave them in less position to enforce it?

User avatar
Privateer Stockholm
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 402
Founded: Mar 01, 2023
Ex-Nation

Postby Privateer Stockholm » Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:29 pm

On a sidenote, isn't chivalry also unfair to men and boys with medical conditions that leave them in less position to enforce it?

If woman are the only group given an extra protected status beyond that of “human being” then potentially, yes.
However if the measure of being part of a gender is willingness to live as such, wouldn’t there be the argument that men and boys would naturally want chivalry?
even for that privileged class of noble women expected impossible standards of behaviour while circumscribing their rights and freedoms

Many of the suffragettes used chivalry in their campaigns and public outrage at their treatment by the police was widespread.
Last edited by Privateer Stockholm on Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
News:
-Malmo taken as much of the rest of urban Sweden is nuked.
- The Captain-General is dead, long live the Captain-General!
- Captain-General dies leading his men.

User avatar
Zanderlock
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 157
Founded: Nov 07, 2022
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Zanderlock » Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:30 pm

To an extent, being polite is a great thing, but chivalry is often either turned into 2 things at either extreme. One extreme being “Simping” and the other being a sexist incel.
I, Zanderlock, officially, and of my own free will, authorize the posting of this message when this signature appears. If any signature is invalid or different, DO NOT TRUST THEM!

User avatar
Stellar Colonies
Senator
 
Posts: 4415
Founded: Mar 27, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Stellar Colonies » Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:49 pm

I’m in favor of women being better at self-defense partially so that I’m not expected to do it for them.
Native of The East Pacific & Northern California
If you want a mental image of me: straight(?) white male.

I try to be objective, but I do have some biases.

I identify as an egalitarian, feminism and MRAism are too narrowly focused.

Might be slowly going red over time.

Also, I'm diagnosed with ASD.
Stellar Colonies is a loose confederacy comprised from most of the human-settled parts of the galaxy.

Ida Station is the only Confederate member state permitted to join the WA.

Add 1200 years for the date I use.

User avatar
GuessTheAltAccount
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1894
Founded: Apr 27, 2021
Democratic Socialists

Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:21 pm

Privateer Stockholm wrote:
On a sidenote, isn't chivalry also unfair to men and boys with medical conditions that leave them in less position to enforce it?

If woman are the only group given an extra protected status beyond that of “human being” then potentially, yes.
However if the measure of being part of a gender is willingness to live as such, wouldn’t there be the argument that men and boys would naturally want chivalry?
even for that privileged class of noble women expected impossible standards of behaviour while circumscribing their rights and freedoms

Many of the suffragettes used chivalry in their campaigns and public outrage at their treatment by the police was widespread.

My high school history teachers told us no such thing. In what sense, and in what context, did suffragettes invoke chivalry? Did they invoke it directly, or just ironically, to cast a light on how plainly insincere the charade of "chivalry" always was?

As for gender roles, there seems to be a double standard in the extent to which people are expected to be treated as individuals. If I so much as entertain the possibility that eliminating all reasons for a man or boy to say no to a woman's advances would be more doable, and a more constructive outlet for boys' sex drives, than to convince women that a boy genuinely meant "no" to her advances, I get accused of being unfair to asexuals. The same group of people NSers have previously denied existed. Yet somehow NSers think it more acceptable to hold disabled men and disabled boys to higher standards of physically protecting the women and girls they know than the most able-bodied of women and girls are to physically protecting the men and boys they know?

By comparison, plenty of pop culture portrays, as endearing, women who are both stalkerish toward; and violently protective of; the objects of their affection. So why, on webforums, is the "boys are the chivalrous ones, disabilities and other medical conditions be damned" gender role held above the "boys always say yes" gender role, when pop culture does the opposite?

User avatar
Socialist Montenegro
Attaché
 
Posts: 95
Founded: Feb 20, 2023
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Socialist Montenegro » Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:23 pm

If you want gender equality, you have to sacrifice special rights or privileges. Those two go hand in hand. Equal rights, equal responsibilities/obligations. I will take that stand until my last breath.
Culturally conservative socialist state set in alternate Eastern Europe. Policies do not reflect my own RL politics.
"Funny how they always want to be friends right after they rip your guts out," Private Ace Levy, Starship Troopers
Cthulhu 2024. Never settle for the lesser evil.
No, I don't want "free stuff." I just want the government that I paid taxes for to work for me, not for the rich who evade taxes, anyway.

User avatar
Theodores Tomfooleries
Diplomat
 
Posts: 801
Founded: Oct 26, 2021
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Theodores Tomfooleries » Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:30 pm

Privateer Stockholm wrote:By chivalry,
here I mean the protectiveness by men and boys towards women and girls.
So please avoid discussions of other aspects of the code of medieval knighthood and whether the ideal I’m referring to, or other ideals in the code, were always or often followed in practice
(Unless where relevant).
My opinion
Personally, I support chivalry as in the best interests of both the genders concerned and society as well as being right, as a deontological principle, in itself.

Women do not need to be "protected" anymore. They still certainly face discrimination, yes- but the age of chivalry, the paternalism and patriarchy that dominated society is for the most part gone.

That doesn't mean that I think that men should start beating their wives without the whole fake bullshit of "holding the door". Respect and manners will continue without chivalry just fine.
"Workers of the World, Unite! You Have Nothing to Lose but Your Chains!"

• Lover of Lenin • Leninist (iPhone Stealer) • Mentally unstable Queer
she/he/they

I write on iiWiki @here

User avatar
Jabberwocky
Diplomat
 
Posts: 745
Founded: Nov 02, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Jabberwocky » Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:37 pm

Holding the door may be fake for you; not for me. I treat women as ladies routinely. Mostly, they seem to appreciate it.
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gambol in the wabe.
All mimsy were the borogoves
And the mome raths outgrabe.

User avatar
Nilokeras
Minister
 
Posts: 2995
Founded: Jul 14, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Nilokeras » Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:38 pm

Privateer Stockholm wrote:Hence why Virginia hasn’t executed a woman (of any race or class) in over 12 years.


Waiting with baited breath to hear how you think a medieval code of behaviour can be blamed for Virginia's judicial practices.

Privateer Stockholm wrote:Then why was this a capital offence in England and the Holy Roman Empire?


'Capital offense' is a meaningless term to apply outside of a modern legal context with set sentencing requirements. Doubly so in the Empire, considering the vast array of different political and legal systems at work. So is the modern conception of 'rape' - the only Western legal concept that maps onto it is raptus, from the Latin 'to seize'. Medieval courts conceived of it as a crime of property, of unlawful seizure of a woman by a man from the woman's responsible male, ie the father or the husband. It therefore not brought against cases of marital rape, for example. It was also brought against cases of abduction or even elopement by a woman and their lover.

Access to the courts was also entirely dependent on class - the only cases we ever see in the record are dealing with nobles. The rape of lower class people was never considered.

Privateer Stockholm wrote:Also, when did Saladin ever commit or order rape?


Chivalry as a code of behaviour is a Western European phenomena.

User avatar
Fractalnavel
Diplomat
 
Posts: 687
Founded: Oct 04, 2005
Anarchy

Postby Fractalnavel » Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:50 pm

Maybe read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chivalry for background. Fascinating stuff.

User avatar
Juristonia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6043
Founded: Oct 30, 2006
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Juristonia » Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:57 pm

Privateer Stockholm wrote:By chivalry,
here I mean the protectiveness by men and boys towards women and girls.
So please avoid discussions of other aspects of the code of medieval knighthood and whether the ideal I’m referring to, or other ideals in the code, were always or often followed in practice
(Unless where relevant).
My opinion
Personally, I support chivalry as in the best interests of both the genders concerned and society as well as being right, as a deontological principle, in itself.

Here's the thing. Why does there need to be "protectiveness by men and boys towards women and girls" at all?
Why can't everyone just look out for everyone, regardless of whatever attributes we prescribe to them?

I'm protective of the people around me, regardless of who or what they are. If I go through a door and someone's behind me, I hold it for them, regardless of who are what they are.
Why does there need to be some weird kind of gendered system behind it when you can just be generally kind to everyone?
Damn the man! Save the Empire!
Liriena wrote:Say what you will about fascists: they are remarkably consistent even after several decades of failing spectacularly elsewhere.

Ifreann wrote:Indeed, as far as I can recall only one poster has ever supported legalising bestiality, and he was fucking his cat and isn't welcome here any more, in no small part, I imagine, because he kept going on about how he was fucking his cat.

Cannot think of a name wrote:Anyway, I'm from gold country, we grow up knowing that when people jump up and down shouting "GOLD GOLD GOLD" the gold is gone and the only money to be made is in selling shovels.

And it seems to me that cryptocurrency and NFTs and such suddenly have a whooooole lot of shovel salespeople.

User avatar
Juansonia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 883
Founded: Apr 01, 2022
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Juansonia » Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:58 pm

My opinion is that everyone should have equal rights and duties (with exceptions related to medical ability), and I believe that gender roles, if they exist, should be completely voluntary. I don't want to live in a world where women demand that I hold the door for them, a world where me wearing a skirt gets me hate-crime'd, or a world where men act like women are lesser than them.

Everyone should be free to be as courteous or independent as they want. Everyone should be able to protect themselves. Ideally, everyone capable would protect each other, but that won't happen.

I would be opposed to a societal expectation of chivalry.
Last edited by Juansonia on Wed Mar 01, 2023 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
IC: MT, Stats are funded by think-tanks of varying ideologies(don't assume that they are canon). Embassy
OOC: Owns and (sometimes) wears a maid outfit, wants to pair it with a FN SCAR-L. He/Him/His
Space Squid wrote:Each sin should get it's own month.

Right now, Pride gets June, and Greed, Envy, and Gluttony have to share Thanksgiving/Black Friday through Christmas, Sloth gets one day in September, and Lust gets one day in February.

It's not equitable at all
Gandoor wrote:Cliché: A mod making a reply that's full of swearing after someone asks if you're allowed to swear on this site.

It makes me chuckle every time it happens.
だめダネだめよだめなのよあんたが好きで好きすぎてどれだけ強いお酒でもゆがまないおもいでがばかみたい

User avatar
Socialist Montenegro
Attaché
 
Posts: 95
Founded: Feb 20, 2023
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Socialist Montenegro » Wed Mar 01, 2023 4:08 pm

Theodores Tomfooleries wrote:
Privateer Stockholm wrote:By chivalry,
here I mean the protectiveness by men and boys towards women and girls.
So please avoid discussions of other aspects of the code of medieval knighthood and whether the ideal I’m referring to, or other ideals in the code, were always or often followed in practice
(Unless where relevant).
My opinion
Personally, I support chivalry as in the best interests of both the genders concerned and society as well as being right, as a deontological principle, in itself.

Women do not need to be "protected" anymore. They still certainly face discrimination, yes- but the age of chivalry, the paternalism and patriarchy that dominated society is for the most part gone.

That doesn't mean that I think that men should start beating their wives without the whole fake bullshit of "holding the door". Respect and manners will continue without chivalry just fine.


Glad that someone has finally dared to acknowledge that patriarchy was abandoned ages ago. I'm tired of people making excuses like "the patriarchy did this" or "the patriarchy did that." Find another scapegoat for your problems, folks.
Culturally conservative socialist state set in alternate Eastern Europe. Policies do not reflect my own RL politics.
"Funny how they always want to be friends right after they rip your guts out," Private Ace Levy, Starship Troopers
Cthulhu 2024. Never settle for the lesser evil.
No, I don't want "free stuff." I just want the government that I paid taxes for to work for me, not for the rich who evade taxes, anyway.

User avatar
Heloin
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26093
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Heloin » Wed Mar 01, 2023 4:18 pm

Your misogynistic fantasy is not positive and does nothing for equality of the sexes. When you say protective what you mean is possessive, this isn't about keeping women and girls safe it's about holding them down as a lower class in need of a creepy paternalistic kind of protection.

Jabberwocky wrote:Holding the door may be fake for you; not for me. I treat women as ladies routinely. Mostly, they seem to appreciate it.

You'd hold a door open for most people I assume unless you're actively misandric. It's not chivalry, it's being polite.

User avatar
Floofybit
Minister
 
Posts: 3444
Founded: Sep 11, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Floofybit » Wed Mar 01, 2023 5:58 pm

Chivalry is good :hug:
Last edited by Floofybit on Wed Mar 01, 2023 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Straight Religious Authoritarian Socialist Traditionalist Pro-Life Pacificist Patriot Male Furry Who Is Addicted To Fruit
Foxlington News
Fruit addiction terrorises Floofybits, no known cure has been found | After various petitions, the woman arrested for having "too many favourite colours" due to be released in 2034, has now been let free. "I'll be more decisive next time," she stated | Stash of tangerine juice found in high-ranking government official's home in Peachton, accused of "not sharing with the rest of us" | Peachton man identifies as a pomelo, watch his story

Safety > Freedom
"Gotta be some Disneyland style utopia for either people and dogs or... anthropomorphic animals."

User avatar
Morozistan
Secretary
 
Posts: 26
Founded: Aug 13, 2022
Democratic Socialists

Postby Morozistan » Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:14 pm

To an extent, yes. Men should always treat women with respect, but women should be able to have their own independence as well. And when I mean respect, I don't mean the removal of all sexual desires, but that those desired are voluntary towards the woman in question. Women should be seen on an equal pedestal with men socially, but there's not inherently anything wrong with a man being protective of a women so long as that doesn't extend into over-protectiveness or removing all forms of progressive feminist empowerment (feminism as in the kind where women deserve equal rights to men, not the version where women suppress men to eradicate all forms of masculinity).
Classified as a Tier 7, Level 2, Type 5 civilization.

☭"Liberty is being free from oppressive restriction or control. To be free is not merely to cast off one's chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedoms of others. It is not something to just be given, every right you claim for yourself must be given to your brother also."☭

User avatar
The Black Forrest
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54833
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:18 pm

Depends on the woman. A professional fighter can probably handle herself. A tiny woman getting a beating from a guy because “wahhh she slapped me” Hell yes.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

User avatar
Alcala-Cordel
Senator
 
Posts: 4025
Founded: Dec 16, 2019
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Alcala-Cordel » Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:26 pm

Being polite, helpful, and protecting people when needed is cool. Chivalry is weird, sexist, and irrelevant for several hundred years. Assuming women can't do things for themselves is also weird.

On a slightly different note, while I do hate physically fighting I would fight a woman if I had to. Most women are taller than I am anyway.
Last edited by Alcala-Cordel on Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Mediterranean salamander preserve of Alcala-Cordel

User avatar
Washington Resistance Army
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 52957
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:29 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:Depends on the woman. A professional fighter can probably handle herself. A tiny woman getting a beating from a guy because “wahhh she slapped me” Hell yes.


Equal rights equal fights tbh. I'd hit a smaller man back if he hit me, why should the same not be true of a woman?

As for the thread topic, no chivalry is not good and it has no need or reason to exist in our society.
Hellenic Polytheist, Socialist

User avatar
The Black Forrest
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54833
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:32 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:Depends on the woman. A professional fighter can probably handle herself. A tiny woman getting a beating from a guy because “wahhh she slapped me” Hell yes.


Equal rights equal fights tbh. I'd hit a smaller man back if he hit me, why should the same not be true of a woman?

As for the thread topic, no chivalry is not good and it has no need or reason to exist in our society.


Depends on the man. He can be small and yet muscled.

A guy so willing to punch out a woman has some issues.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

User avatar
Dwemer
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Feb 07, 2023
Ex-Nation

Postby Dwemer » Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:37 pm

“Well, I’m dashed! The way I was raised, it was expected that men should open doors for ladies,” says Mr. Dwemer, leaning lightly on his decorative silver-topped cane. “Protecting the fairer sex is an obligation of every gentleman - like learning to ride astride, box ruffians or dance a manly gavotte - and I’m sure many ladies would prefer feeling cherished by society. Rather than discourage chivalry, we should teach it in schools.”

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: -Astoria-, Aituia alt1, Duvniask, El Lazaro, Elejamie, Emotional Support Crocodile, Enormous Gentiles, Fartsniffage, Haganham, Hulldom, Hypron, Ifreann, Karnata, Kiyoya, Mylderm, Nlarhyalo, Nouveau Strasbourg, Reich of the New World Order, Tinhampton, Zurkerx

Advertisement

Remove ads

cron