The United States of Europe

[Fifth Jellian Republic]

For thousands of years, Europe has been witness to war. After 2 horribly destructive world wars, Europe came together, in hope for lasting peace, starting with the coal and steel community and ending with the European Union. Taking a step back for every 2 steps forwards, the Story of the EU is full of triumphs and setbacks, the most recent of which is Brexit.
As of now there are two competing voices in pan-European politics, the federalists and the intergovernmentalists.
On the side of the federalists, you have a call to bring Europe closer together, giving sovereignty of the individual country to the EU. On the other side, you have the push to pull Europe farther apart, and to regain sovereignty already given to the EU.

This thread focuses on the federal idea. What do you think about it?

Is it a good idea, is it not?
Are there unforeseen consequences?
Could this usher in a new age for humanity?
How would even it work?

In short, this is a general discussion about the idea of EU the country,
Or as I call it,
“The United States of Europe”

[Fifth Jellian Republic]

Personally, I love the idea of a second liberal democratic superpower. But I’ll hold off on writing more about it until other people get a go at it

[Durius]

Or as I call it,
“The United States of Europe”

As I said in another post, great concept, terrible name. European Federation (if it is to be a federation) or the classic European Union are much better. There are things that we can copy from the US, but we should mostly create our own union, not be a version of the United States in Europe.

On the side of the federalists, you have a call to bring Europe closer together, giving sovereignty of the individual country to the EU.

Not necessarily. There are EU institutions that ought to be strengthen like the European Parliament, and others that need to be created or enhanced, like the European fiscal union or the European army, but there is also a lot of competences that can (and should) be returned to the states, otherwise we aren't in the presence of a federation, but a European unitary state (entirely undesirable, imo).

How would even it work?

Frankly, not that differently from today. The EU is already a sort of proto-federation. The most important step is for the political class to acknowledge federalization as the goal and to gain the people's acceptance of it. Opinions still vary quite in the union, with the German in general very pro-federalization, the Dutch generally against, or the Portuguese, in favor, but based on bad principles (like, that they can't govern themselves, thus the EU ought to do it - an attitude that is not fitting of a healthy federation, imo).

Taking a step back for every 2 steps forwards, the Story of the EU is full of triumphs and setbacks, the most recent of which is Brexit.

Is this a triumph or a setback?

[Mountains and Volcanoes]

Personally, I love the idea of a second liberal democratic superpower.

As I said in another post, great concept, terrible name. European Federation (if it is to be a federation) or the classic European Union are much better.

Or the Council of Europe?

[Fifth Jellian Republic]

Or as I call it,
“The United States of Europe”

As I said in another post, great concept, terrible name. European Federation (if it is to be a federation) or the classic European Union are much better. There are things that we can copy from the US, but we should mostly create our own union, not be a version of the United States in Europe.

On the side of the federalists, you have a call to bring Europe closer together, giving sovereignty of the individual country to the EU.

Not necessarily. There are EU institutions that ought to be strengthen like the European Parliament, and others that need to be created or enhanced, like the European fiscal union or the European army, but there is also a lot of competences that can (and should) be returned to the states, otherwise we aren't in the presence of a federation, but a European unitary state (entirely undesirable, imo).

How would even it work?

Frankly, not that differently from today. The EU is already a sort of proto-federation. The most important step is for the political class to acknowledge federalization as the goal and to gain the people's acceptance of it. Opinions still vary quite in the union, with the German in general very pro-federalization, the Dutch generally against, or the Portuguese, in favor, but based on bad principles (like, that they can't govern themselves, thus the EU ought to do it - an attitude that is not fitting of a healthy federation, imo).

Taking a step back for every 2 steps forwards, the Story of the EU is full of triumphs and setbacks, the most recent of which is Brexit.

Is this a triumph or a setback?

That’s up to you

And it sounds like you don’t think the EU should become a country, but you do believe some aspects should be strengthened?

Also I think the “United States of Europe” is an awesome name

[Durius]

As I said in another post, great concept, terrible name. European Federation (if it is to be a federation) or the classic European Union are much better.

Or the Council of Europe?

To me, Council of Europe implies a political chamber, not a political union. Furthermore, the actual CoE is quite useless and maybe even under threat of being replaced by shallower entities like the European Political Community. I don't see them replacing the EU as the main political union in the continent, nor I see why would the EU rename itself to Council of Europe.

(And it's already bad enough that the EU already has bodies called "Council of the European Union" and "European Council"!)

[Mountains and Volcanoes]

Or the Council of Europe?

To me, Council of Europe implies a political chamber, not a political union. Furthermore, the actual CoE is quite useless and maybe even under threat of being replaced by shallower entities like the European Political Community. I don't see them replacing the EU as the main political union in the continent, nor I see why would the EU rename itself to Council of Europe.

(And it's already bad enough that the EU already has bodies called "Council of the European Union" and "European Council"!)

WE NEED MERGE ALL OF THEM!

[Durius]

And it sounds like you don’t think the EU should become a country, but you do believe some aspects should be strengthened?

I believe it should become a country, but not a unitary one. I have a hard time conceptualizing any other form of government for the EU that I find acceptable that is not a federation. I defend that a European identity should be composed by and coexist with the many ethnic and cultural European identities that exist, not supersede them. That's why, in a future of a European Federation, I foresee that we will be seeing discussions on states' rights that will seek to draw the line on what the EF should administer and what the member states are (and should) be able to do by themselves. The Federation shouldn't be governing member states, but assure the frictionless interaction, as much as possible, between them. And the same happens in the US, where individual states still hold large degrees of autonomy over their own matters.

For instance, a common defense (and strategy) is of top importance. This should include a common European army (which imo, should be the European part a new bipolar NATO, but doesn't have too), common purchases/development of arms and ministry that is the sole responsible for defense matters of the union (of course, answerable to the Parliament and Senate/Council). However, individual states should be able to keep their "armies" (which I expect would be greatly downsized, as they would be redundant in many aspects, and instead they would be morphed into military policies, like the French Gendarmerie).

Other area where federal action should trump individual action is in financial matters. A fiscal union with Euro as the sole currency should be finalized. This should not, however, excuse the individual states of their responsibilities. This is another area where emulating the US is not such a bad idea: states have their own debts and they shouldn't expect federal help without major (temporarily) loss of autonomy.

Finally, diplomacy and trade (already a EU competency) also ought to be the sole responsibility of the federation. We can't have member states undermining the collective efforts. However, I don't see a problem on them meeting foreign representatives in order to promote investment on their states (as long as such investments don't contradict EF's foreign policy) or cultural exchanges.

On the other hand, I don't see why the states can't be responsible for state citizenship, education, health, cultural and social policy. Surely some core directives, like respect for human rights, can be agreed, and the federation should ensure that citizens of one state are fairly treated on another (thus, safeguarding free-movement, access to the education and health systems, etc.), but the core part of what concerns a member-state should be decided by the member-state itself.

[Durius]

To me, Council of Europe implies a political chamber, not a political union. Furthermore, the actual CoE is quite useless and maybe even under threat of being replaced by shallower entities like the European Political Community. I don't see them replacing the EU as the main political union in the continent, nor I see why would the EU rename itself to Council of Europe.

(And it's already bad enough that the EU already has bodies called "Council of the European Union" and "European Council"!)

WE NEED MERGE ALL OF THEM!

I propose the creation of the «Council of the European Council of the European Union of Europe».

[Mountains and Volcanoes]

WE NEED MERGE ALL OF THEM!

I propose the creation of the «Council of the European Council of the European Union of Europe».

WITH A LGBT FLAG!

[Durius]

I propose the creation of the «Council of the European Council of the European Union of Europe».

WITH A LGBT FLAG!

Can't we simple use Rem Koolhaas' proposal?

[Esternial]

This seems to me little more than just putting a label on things. The United States of America is technically a country but its states seem to constantly vie for more independence to legislate as they see fit.. Russia is technically a country but states like the Sakha Republic are also fairly independent.

[Hispida]

i think the federalization of europe would be fuckin' dumb from both a personal political and generally practical viewpoint

it might happen in the near future when it's harder for the EU as an entity to perform its duties (i.e. siphon shit from eastern europe and the middle east to fuel the west) and it would be easier to do it as a single country but as it stands rn it doesn't make a lot of sense

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

Continental states are more inclusive and humanistic by getting rid of the nation-state understanding of the French Revolution. So how do we convince the right-wingers within these borders ?

[Ethel mermania]

This is the long term goal of the EU, lousy idea. Poland and France aren't the same country, the laws of the individual states should reflect this

[Dimetrodon Empire]

I highly doubt this will work. Also, don't copy the United States, even in naming, as our republic is failing.

I expect this to ignite support for the far-right even further.

[Durius]

the EU as an entity to perform its duties (i.e. siphon shit from eastern europe and the middle east to fuel the west)

I'm always amazed by the capability people have to write the most idiotic crap, but you really showed us another example of that unfortunately too common mental diarrhea.

So how do we convince the right-wingers within these borders ?

Right-wingers or euroskeptics? Plenty of right-wingers support the EU, with many defending more integration. You can even find hard-right parties that defend the EU, though their usually view it as a white European bastion against the world. The point is: you don't really have to convince them; they see the benefits of the union and find their own justifications for why it should exist.

That all being said, your map is clearly ridiculous and I doubt you will find anyone near any position of influence trying to push for it.

[Heloin]

If they want to, sure.

So how do we convince the right-wingers within these borders ?

Right-wingers or euroskeptics? Plenty of right-wingers support the EU, with many defending more integration. You can even find hard-right parties that defend the EU, though their usually view it as a white European bastion against the world.

I mean, Hakinda also supports the idea for insanely racist reasons. His reasons are just focused more on exterminating Armenians and Kurds then a white nationalist Fortress Europa.

[Greater Miami Shores 3]

For thousands of years, Europe has been witness to war. After 2 horribly destructive world wars, Europe came together, in hope for lasting peace, starting with the coal and steel community and ending with the European Union. Taking a step back for every 2 steps forwards, the Story of the EU is full of triumphs and setbacks, the most recent of which is Brexit.
As of now there are two competing voices in pan-European politics, the federalists and the intergovernmentalists.
On the side of the federalists, you have a call to bring Europe closer together, giving sovereignty of the individual country to the EU. On the other side, you have the push to pull Europe farther apart, and to regain sovereignty already given to the EU.

This thread focuses on the federal idea. What do you think about it?

Is it a good idea, is it not?
Are there unforeseen consequences?
Could this usher in a new age for humanity?
How would even it work?

In short, this is a general discussion about the idea of EU the country,
Or as I call it,
“The United States of Europe”

“The United States of Europe” - What a Revolting Idea, Yuck. I love Europe as a union of European Nations. I honor them with my nation of NS Europe and a few other NS Europe nations as named.

[Arvenia]

If they want to, sure.

Right-wingers or euroskeptics? Plenty of right-wingers support the EU, with many defending more integration. You can even find hard-right parties that defend the EU, though their usually view it as a white European bastion against the world.

I mean, Hakinda also supports the idea for insanely racist reasons. His reasons are just focused more on exterminating Armenians and Kurds then a white nationalist Fortress Europa.

Wait, Hakinda is a white nationalist?! I thought he was a Kemalist.

[Heloin]

If they want to, sure.


I mean, Hakinda also supports the idea for insanely racist reasons. His reasons are just focused more on exterminating Armenians and Kurds then a white nationalist Fortress Europa.

Wait, Hakinda is a white nationalist?! I thought he was a Kemalist.

Sorry I didn’t make that clear. He’s a Turkish nationalist and deeply racist when anything that concerns non-turks in the middle east is to be considered. His opinions on Armenians and Arabs often strays just above the line of genocidal.

[Rakhalia]

The concept of a united European identity is interesting in the sense that it lives in the fevered, faux-nostalgia fever dreams of white identitarians, as well as the over-optimistic and naive euro-liberal academic royalty, and ultimately renders both groups analogous to extents that neither would be comfortable with. I, personally, would be opposed to any more codification of the imperialist, neoliberal bureaucratic hell that is the current EU.

[Stellar Colonies]

Continental states are more inclusive and humanistic by getting rid of the nation-state understanding of the French Revolution. So how do we convince the right-wingers within these borders ?

(Image)

You could start by ceasing your incessant push for Turkey to seize portions of its eastern and southern neighbors.

[Arvenia]

Continental states are more inclusive and humanistic by getting rid of the nation-state understanding of the French Revolution. So how do we convince the right-wingers within these borders ?

(Image)

You could start by ceasing your incessant push for Turkey to seize portions of its eastern and southern neighbors.

Turkey should give East Thrace back to Greece.

[Durius]

The concept of a united European identity is interesting in the sense that it lives in the fevered, faux-nostalgia fever dreams of white identitarians, as well as the over-optimistic and naive euro-liberal academic royalty, and ultimately renders both groups analogous to extents that neither would be comfortable with. I, personally, would be opposed to any more codification of the imperialist, neoliberal bureaucratic hell that is the current EU.

So many buzzwords. So little content.