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Griner freed, Whelan remains jailed

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Atlantic Isles
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Griner freed, Whelan remains jailed

Postby Atlantic Isles » Thu Dec 08, 2022 4:52 pm

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politi ... -rcna60683

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/12/08 ... raine-news

WNBA player Brittney Griner has been released from prison in Russia, as I'm sure many of you are aware. I'm sure many of you are also aware that former Marine Paul Whelan was not released. He has been in prison for almost 4 years (much longer than Griner) and has been passed over for a prisoner exchange once before. The American government has failed Mr. Whelan in every way imaginable, and my heart breaks tonight for him and his family. I'm glad for Ms. Griner, of course. Her freedom is, of course, a wonderful thing, but it's impossible, for me, to not be incredibly angry over the abandonment of Mr. Whelan. I absolutely have to reiterate that I feel that Ms. Griner absolutely deserves to be free today and I'm incredibly happy to see her release, but I don't think that it's fair to ignore the fact that there was clear evidence that she did commit a crime, and she even plead guilty. Mr. Whelan, however, faces 12 more years in prison for a crime that he insists that he did not commit, and given Russia's track record, we have no reason to believe that he did. It makes me physically sick to think that a man who likely committed no crime has been passed over for exchange, not only once but TWICE. This post has been a messy ramble, but I just cannot convey the outrage that I feel right now. Thanks for reading.

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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:03 pm

It does suck for him.

Not so much the failure of the government. The Russians jailed him for espionage. A simple trade of people isn’t going to satisfy them. Probably more along the lines of pulling back Ukraine support.

I wonder how long before the republicans and the MAGA types blame Biden for his time in jail?
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Big Bad Blue
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Postby Big Bad Blue » Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:45 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:It does suck for him.

Not so much the failure of the government. The Russians jailed him for espionage. A simple trade of people isn’t going to satisfy them. Probably more along the lines of pulling back Ukraine support.

I wonder how long before the republicans and the MAGA types blame Biden for his time in jail?


They're way ahead of you.

The business of liberating various Americans who find themselves being held for sundry kinds of ransom overseas is a delicate and essentially dirty job. We do it because, unlike a whole bunch of other nations, we care about our citizens overseas and we have the resources to do something about it when they wind up in the pokey unjustly. But blaming the US government for any of that is like blaming the bank for being robbed or the victim for being raped. That dog don't hunt.
Last edited by Big Bad Blue on Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Atlantic Isles
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Postby Atlantic Isles » Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:48 pm

Sure, it might take more to get Russia there, but Jesus, Biden really doesn't seem too torn up about it. Maybe I'm jaded. Maybe not. Either way, the guy would do well to show a bit more emotion. I consider myself liberal/progressive/whatever-you-wanna-call-it on most issues, but Biden really does have a lot of shortcomings, and even though I know he probably isn't directly responsible for the swap, it's hard not to feel some very strong things toward him when nothing I've seen has him seeming genuinely sympathetic or feeling badly toward Mr. Whelan. I blame the Trump administration, too, for his time in jail. They also did not manage to secure his release. There's a lot of blame to go around, I think, and I would favor a much stronger stance taken by the US on the sham that is the Russian judicial (not justice) system.

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Atlantic Isles
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Postby Atlantic Isles » Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:51 pm

Big Bad Blue wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:It does suck for him.

Not so much the failure of the government. The Russians jailed him for espionage. A simple trade of people isn’t going to satisfy them. Probably more along the lines of pulling back Ukraine support.

I wonder how long before the republicans and the MAGA types blame Biden for his time in jail?


They're way ahead of you.

The business of liberating various Americans who find themselves being held for sundry kinds of ransom overseas is a delicate and essentially dirty job. We do it because, unlike a whole bunch of other nations, we care about our citizens overseas and we have the resources to do something about it when they wind up in the pokey unjustly. But blaming the US government for any of that is like blaming the bank for being robbed or the victim for being raped. That dog don't hunt.

I'm definitely not blaming the US for the fact that they went to prison, but more the fact that we left behind someone who A) we already left behind once and B) has been in prison for about 4 times as long as Griner. It just doesn't seem right. Won't speak for the MAGA and conservative types, since they have proven time and again that they cannot think logically.

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Big Bad Blue
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Postby Big Bad Blue » Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:53 pm

Atlantic Isles wrote:Sure, it might take more to get Russia there, but Jesus, Biden really doesn't seem too torn up about it. Maybe I'm jaded. Maybe not. Either way, the guy would do well to show a bit more emotion. I consider myself liberal/progressive/whatever-you-wanna-call-it on most issues, but Biden really does have a lot of shortcomings, and even though I know he probably isn't directly responsible for the swap, it's hard not to feel some very strong things toward him when nothing I've seen has him seeming genuinely sympathetic or feeling badly toward Mr. Whelan. I blame the Trump administration, too, for his time in jail. They also did not manage to secure his release. There's a lot of blame to go around, I think, and I would favor a much stronger stance taken by the US on the sham that is the Russian judicial (not justice) system.


And that would advance the cause of getting a US citizen out of jail how? There will be time enough for tough talk about Putin's courts and prisons after he gets out, which he will, just not today. And it will be just as ineffective tomorrow, next week or next year as it would be today. If you'd like a picture of what the US would be like under a second administration of the defeated, disgraced, venal, corrupt, criminal former president, take a look at Putin's Russia, Xi's China or Iran under the mullahs.
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Rusozak
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Postby Rusozak » Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:59 pm

An arms trafficker that's supplied the Taliban and Al Qaeda for an irresponsible basketball player, seems like a fair trade. I hope she's grateful.
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Atlantic Isles
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Postby Atlantic Isles » Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:00 pm

Big Bad Blue wrote:
Atlantic Isles wrote:Sure, it might take more to get Russia there, but Jesus, Biden really doesn't seem too torn up about it. Maybe I'm jaded. Maybe not. Either way, the guy would do well to show a bit more emotion. I consider myself liberal/progressive/whatever-you-wanna-call-it on most issues, but Biden really does have a lot of shortcomings, and even though I know he probably isn't directly responsible for the swap, it's hard not to feel some very strong things toward him when nothing I've seen has him seeming genuinely sympathetic or feeling badly toward Mr. Whelan. I blame the Trump administration, too, for his time in jail. They also did not manage to secure his release. There's a lot of blame to go around, I think, and I would favor a much stronger stance taken by the US on the sham that is the Russian judicial (not justice) system.


And that would advance the cause of getting a US citizen out of jail how? There will be time enough for tough talk about Putin's courts and prisons after he gets out, which he will, just not today. And it will be just as ineffective tomorrow, next week or next year as it would be today. If you'd like a picture of what the US would be like under a second administration of the defeated, disgraced, venal, corrupt, criminal former president, take a look at Putin's Russia, Xi's China or Iran under the mullahs.

I'm honestly doubtful that he'll get out before the end of his sentence. I think there's a clear precedent for him to continue to be left behind now.

Regarding what a second term of the former president would look like, there's no need to tell me twice. It horrifies me to no end that he's running again, and I absolutely think that we could turn down an even darker path at the end of those four years, god forbid they ever come to pass.

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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:01 pm

Atlantic Isles wrote:Sure, it might take more to get Russia there, but Jesus, Biden really doesn't seem too torn up about it. Maybe I'm jaded. Maybe not. Either way, the guy would do well to show a bit more emotion. I consider myself liberal/progressive/whatever-you-wanna-call-it on most issues, but Biden really does have a lot of shortcomings, and even though I know he probably isn't directly responsible for the swap, it's hard not to feel some very strong things toward him when nothing I've seen has him seeming genuinely sympathetic or feeling badly toward Mr. Whelan. I blame the Trump administration, too, for his time in jail. They also did not manage to secure his release. There's a lot of blame to go around, I think, and I would favor a much stronger stance taken by the US on the sham that is the Russian judicial (not justice) system.


Ok. How should Biden get him out?
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Atlantic Isles
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Postby Atlantic Isles » Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:03 pm

Rusozak wrote:An arms trafficker that's supplied the Taliban and Al Qaeda for an irresponsible basketball player, seems like a fair trade. I hope she's grateful.

That's the other portion of this, I think trading Whelan for Bout would be a much fairer deal. Bout is clearly worse than Whelan, he provided weaponry to destabilizing forces committing heinous acts of violence, while we've seen no tangible harm as a result of Whelan's alleged actions, which probably never even happened. Of course I'm glad for Griner and I know she'll be eternally grateful, but my oh my do I think we got shortchanged here.

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Postby The Lone Alliance » Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:11 pm

Brittney Griner was harming Russia more by forcing them to deal with her.

Bad Trade
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Atlantic Isles
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Postby Atlantic Isles » Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:11 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Atlantic Isles wrote:...I know he probably isn't directly responsible for the swap...


Ok. How should Biden get him out?

I wasn't saying that it's Biden's fault there, what I was getting at was his apparent lack of emotion toward Whelan's situation. But, if you want to go down this road, I suppose Biden could threaten increased support for Ukraine in various forms, be that aircraft, weapons systems, whatever makes the most sense based on the needs of Ukrainian forces at the moment. He could threaten sanctions. He could cut travel between the two or completely stop offering visas to Russians. He could kick Russian diplomats out of the country. He could push the American UN ambassador to move to censure/condemn/otherwise reprimand Russia for their sham judicial practices. There's a lot of options here.

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Postby New-Minneapolis » Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:14 pm

The Lone Alliance wrote:Brittney Griner was harming Russia more by forcing them to deal with her.

Bad Trade


I think that this is pure virtue singling by the Biden administration.
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Atlantic Isles
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Postby Atlantic Isles » Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:16 pm

New-Minneapolis wrote:
The Lone Alliance wrote:Brittney Griner was harming Russia more by forcing them to deal with her.

Bad Trade


I think that this is pure virtue singling by the Biden administration.

How so? There's not a whole lot that's virtuous about freeing an arms dealer.

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Postby Nilokeras » Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:16 pm

I really don't have much sympathy for Whelan. Given the independent corroboration that's done by the BBC his story seems like your bog standard 'global security' private intelligence guy who made a career schmoozing with contacts in Russia/collecting info for his employer. He was probably in the ledger most governments keep of people who are obviously spying but who they just keep tabs on because the benefit to arresting them isn't outweighed by the cost of blowing his cover and causing the people he was schmoozing with to scatter.

The occupational hazard of course is that one day your name might get called when the FSB needs to grab an American or you might get sloppy, either of which might have happened.
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Postby Picairn » Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:22 pm

Whelan is held up by Russian intransigence. They insist that a spy is traded for Whelan, which is why Biden is unable to bring him home. The original deal was supposed to be Bout for Griner and Whelan but Russia treats Whelan's case separately.
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Postby New-Minneapolis » Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:25 pm

Atlantic Isles wrote:
New-Minneapolis wrote:
I think that this is pure virtue singling by the Biden administration.

How so? There's not a whole lot that's virtuous about freeing an arms dealer.


I’ll tell you why, it’s because Greiner was a black lesbian and the right wing hates her. This was completely a “own the cons” move. Whelan should be priority, not some chick that was stupid enough to smuggle dab cartridges in Russia.
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Postby Picairn » Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:26 pm

Atlantic Isles wrote:That's the other portion of this, I think trading Whelan for Bout would be a much fairer deal.

You are not going to get anything by insisting on this, because Russia wants a spy for Whelan.
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Postby Concejos Unidos » Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:29 pm

Nilokeras wrote:I really don't have much sympathy for Whelan. Given the independent corroboration that's done by the BBC his story seems like your bog standard 'global security' private intelligence guy who made a career schmoozing with contacts in Russia/collecting info for his employer. He was probably in the ledger most governments keep of people who are obviously spying but who they just keep tabs on because the benefit to arresting them isn't outweighed by the cost of blowing his cover and causing the people he was schmoozing with to scatter.

The occupational hazard of course is that one day your name might get called when the FSB needs to grab an American or you might get sloppy, either of which might have happened.

Right, hard to have much sympathy for spies/semi-spies. Sort of weird to say to a country, even an authoritarian regimes, "how dare you arrest our spy!"
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Postby Nilokeras » Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:29 pm

Picairn wrote:
Atlantic Isles wrote:That's the other portion of this, I think trading Whelan for Bout would be a much fairer deal.

You are not going to get anything by insisting on this, because Russia wants a spy for Whelan.


Doubly important to remember considering Whelan's arrest was almost certainly a tit-for-tat response to the arrest of Maria Butina.

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Postby Parai Hambriven » Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:30 pm

I'm so done with the current government. I mean, I've been done since before the current administration came into power, but a woman incriminated on petty weed charges got traded for a murderer? How can literally anybody be this stupid?
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Postby Tangatarehua » Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:41 pm

I never had much sympathy for Brittney Griner to begin with, but I'm surprised by how much this has actually made me angry.

My position remains that if you're dumb enough to bring cannabis into a country like Russia then you deserve what's coming to you.

What really makes me angry here is the fact that because of some self-entitled brain dead sports player, we now have an arms dealer responsible for god knows how many actual deaths walking free in Russia, where there's no doubt more people will pay with their lives in future.

And that doesn't even touch on the fact that if the US are going to make a deal for such a character then surely Paul Whelan is much more deserving of being part of that exchange.

Not that there's any shortage of reasons to dislike him, surely this demonstrates how much Joe Biden needs to be put out to pasture in 2024.

Parai Hambriven wrote:I'm so done with the current government. I mean, I've been done since before the current administration came into power, but a woman incriminated on petty weed charges got traded for a murderer? How can literally anybody be this stupid?


Well said. My thoughts precisely.
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Postby Picairn » Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:45 pm

Tangatarehua wrote:And that doesn't even touch on the fact that if the US are going to make a deal for such a character then surely Paul Whelan is much more deserving of being part of that exchange.

Not that there's any shortage of reasons to dislike him, surely this demonstrates how much Joe Biden needs to be put out to pasture in 2024.

Russia insists to have a spy for Whelan. How are you gonna answer to that, since you are supposedly a better negotiator than Biden?
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Postby Drongonia » Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:47 pm

Picairn wrote:
Tangatarehua wrote:And that doesn't even touch on the fact that if the US are going to make a deal for such a character then surely Paul Whelan is much more deserving of being part of that exchange.

Not that there's any shortage of reasons to dislike him, surely this demonstrates how much Joe Biden needs to be put out to pasture in 2024.

Russia insists to have a spy for Whelan. How are you gonna answer to that, since you are supposedly a better negotiator than Biden?

When did he say that?

If Biden and the greater administration were competent, they'd tell Russia they get the arms dealer for Whelan, or nobody.

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