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Libertarianism vs Pragmatarianism

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
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Xerographica
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Libertarianism vs Pragmatarianism

Postby Xerographica » Tue Dec 06, 2022 1:54 am

Kalivyah wrote:
Xerographica wrote:A long time ago i lived in china for half a year. i ate a wide variety of very delicious and affordable street food nearly everyday and didn't get food poisoning once.

regulation has 3 main results

1. decrease the variety and quality of food
2. increase the price of food
3. decrease employment options

everybody gets screwed. poorer people get especially screwed.

you have this idea that legislators are magically enlightened enough to correctly weigh the costs and benefits of regulation for you, me and every other unique individual in society. this idea is the most harmful idea ever.

you want to voluntarily contribute to a non-profit organization that certifies participating food companies as meeting a high standard of cleanliness? fine, no problem. if you're concerned about the problem of free-riding, fine, it's a reasonable concern, therefore taxes. but it is entirely not fine if you think it's a good idea for somebody who doesn't even know my favorite fruit to decide how my taxes should be spent.

Didn't you just say that you lived in China? You mean the one who is still quite regulatory of its economy? Who has never been fully free market capitalist? You... you literally just proved the point that regulation increases the variety and quality of food... not to mention that regulation can actually cause prices to drop down as it prevents corporations from increasing the prices of products.
Ahh... average libertarian.

The average libertarian doesn't know this...
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Seldon, on the other hand, knows my fav fruit.

I recently tried soursop for the 1st time. It was quite good, but it wasn't better than jackfruit, which I only tried for the 1st time a couple years ago. Wish that I had tried it when I was a kid.

It's really sad that most of you have never tried soursop or jackfruit. Is this an example of market failure? No, it's an example of my failure. I failed to persuade the members of a rare fruit forum that it would be incredibly beneficial if donations (to the forum) could be used to rank fruit.

Donations have been used to rank the themes of the past few libertarian conventions, unlike the dates and locations. The Invisible Hand can be trusted to rank the themes, but it can't be trusted to rank the dates and locations?

Libertarianism is characterized by a highly incoherent viewpoint on the Invisible Hand, unlike pragmatarianism.
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Senkaku
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Postby Senkaku » Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:56 am

Xerographica wrote:It's really sad that most of you have never tried soursop or jackfruit. Is this an example of market failure? No, it's an example of my failure.

I think you might be the closest thing NS has to a dril unfortunately

Xerographica wrote:I failed to persuade the members of a rare fruit forum that it would be incredibly beneficial if donations (to the forum) could be used to rank fruit.

WHY ARE YOU DISCLOSING THIS???
Last edited by Senkaku on Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:02 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:21 am

I wonder if theres a reason none of the forums you are on have heeded the call to facilitate donations for decision making. Or why such logic stubbornly fails to make progress towards adoption in real life important contexts as is your eventual aim.

Widespread lack of interest in spending money to be able to properly participate in discussions which they can currently get fully involved in without spending money?

Perhaps from an individual point of view what you suggest is wildly inefficient because the vast majority of people don't actually *want* to spend money, and the majority will reject the legitimacy of the result of your money vote?

Maybe this idea comes across as even more out of touch than previously as a general model for society in the context of a cost of living crisis where people in the developed societies you're suggesting this for currently can't in many cases afford to heat their homes or buy food for their kids?

No, it's the children who are wrong!
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Forsher
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Postby Forsher » Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:32 am

Tropical Fruit World in New South Wales is a great holiday destination and is well worth the trip for family groups of all ages. Book your holiday today!
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The Holy Therns
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Postby The Holy Therns » Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:27 am

I was wondering where you'd gone off to.

Xerographica wrote:It's really sad that most of you have never tried soursop or jackfruit. Is this an example of market failure? No, it's an example of my failure. I failed to persuade the members of a rare fruit forum that it would be incredibly beneficial if donations (to the forum) could be used to rank fruit.


...And the answer turns out to be sad.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:05 am

Senkaku wrote:
Xerographica wrote:It's really sad that most of you have never tried soursop or jackfruit. Is this an example of market failure? No, it's an example of my failure.

I think you might be the closest thing NS has to a dril unfortunately

Xerographica wrote:I failed to persuade the members of a rare fruit forum that it would be incredibly beneficial if donations (to the forum) could be used to rank fruit.

WHY ARE YOU DISCLOSING THIS???

Someone must be paying him.
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Page
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Page » Tue Dec 06, 2022 7:15 am

This is kinda a bizarre thread. Anyway, you can get jackfruit in Germany and I've tried it and it's alright but nothing special. As for regulation and such, I believe in informed consent. In theory I would be okay with a street vendor serving a lye milkshake if that vendor was obligated to say "if you drink this you will die an extremely painful death."
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Uiiop
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Postby Uiiop » Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:06 am

Senkaku wrote:
Xerographica wrote:It's really sad that most of you have never tried soursop or jackfruit. Is this an example of market failure? No, it's an example of my failure.

I think you might be the closest thing NS has to a dril unfortunately

Xerographica wrote:I failed to persuade the members of a rare fruit forum that it would be incredibly beneficial if donations (to the forum) could be used to rank fruit.

WHY ARE YOU DISCLOSING THIS???

One wonders if an forum actually tried to do the donation debate and sent him to the shadow realm.

Anyways, You suck at enjoying fruit.
#NSTransparency

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Kubra
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Postby Kubra » Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:30 am

Senkaku wrote:
Xerographica wrote:It's really sad that most of you have never tried soursop or jackfruit. Is this an example of market failure? No, it's an example of my failure.

I think you might be the closest thing NS has to a dril unfortunately

Xerographica wrote:I failed to persuade the members of a rare fruit forum that it would be incredibly beneficial if donations (to the forum) could be used to rank fruit.

WHY ARE YOU DISCLOSING THIS???
Don't you remember when he did that *here*?
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Tinhampton
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Tinhampton » Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:41 am

I knew exactly who wrote this thread just by looking at the third word of the title. I am about as convinced by the OP's main argument as I have been the last four-and-a-half times it's been raised. (Even less so this time: I have not a clue what exactly our fruit rankings are going to be any good for.)

When I last checked, PizzaExpress - a popular British pizzeria - serves jackfruit on some of its (vegan) pizzas. They do not serve soursop. I did not know what soursop was until five minutes ago.
Last edited by Tinhampton on Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Emotional Support Crocodile
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Emotional Support Crocodile » Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:50 am

Ranking fruit seems like a fruitless pursuit.
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El Lazaro
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby El Lazaro » Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:01 am

Image

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Xerographica
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:09 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:I wonder if theres a reason none of the forums you are on have heeded the call to facilitate donations for decision making. Or why such logic stubbornly fails to make progress towards adoption in real life important contexts as is your eventual aim.

Widespread lack of interest in spending money to be able to properly participate in discussions which they can currently get fully involved in without spending money?

Perhaps from an individual point of view what you suggest is wildly inefficient because the vast majority of people don't actually *want* to spend money, and the majority will reject the legitimacy of the result of your money vote?

Maybe this idea comes across as even more out of touch than previously as a general model for society in the context of a cost of living crisis where people in the developed societies you're suggesting this for currently can't in many cases afford to heat their homes or buy food for their kids?

No, it's the children who are wrong!

Some members of the rare fruit forum already donate to it. In their case the option to help rank fruit would simply be an additional perk. Well, I think it would be the only perk.

Out of all the fruits you haven't tried yet, there is one you would enjoy the most. You would find, and try, this fruit faster if there was a list of fruits ranked by donations. This is a fact. It's the honest truth.

You resist this truth because it would upend your strongly held belief in leadership and democracy.

Regarding leadership, no single member, or subset, of a group has tried more fruit than the group as a whole. Regarding democracy, the majority will never know about some "new" fruit before the minority. Perhaps I'm the only member of nationstates that has heard of the achacha. Sadly I still haven't had the chance to try it yet.
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Necroghastia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Necroghastia » Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:11 am

you know those recipes that have a long winded tangential anecdote before you get to the actual point?


yeah.
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Hispida
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Postby Hispida » Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:12 am

Senkaku wrote:
Xerographica wrote:It's really sad that most of you have never tried soursop or jackfruit. Is this an example of market failure? No, it's an example of my failure.

I think you might be the closest thing NS has to a dril unfortunately

i mean i've been working on it
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The Holy Therns
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Postby The Holy Therns » Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:15 am

Xerographica wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:I wonder if theres a reason none of the forums you are on have heeded the call to facilitate donations for decision making. Or why such logic stubbornly fails to make progress towards adoption in real life important contexts as is your eventual aim.

Widespread lack of interest in spending money to be able to properly participate in discussions which they can currently get fully involved in without spending money?

Perhaps from an individual point of view what you suggest is wildly inefficient because the vast majority of people don't actually *want* to spend money, and the majority will reject the legitimacy of the result of your money vote?

Maybe this idea comes across as even more out of touch than previously as a general model for society in the context of a cost of living crisis where people in the developed societies you're suggesting this for currently can't in many cases afford to heat their homes or buy food for their kids?

No, it's the children who are wrong!

Some members of the rare fruit forum already donate to it. In their case the option to help rank fruit would simply be an additional perk. Well, I think it would be the only perk.

Out of all the fruits you haven't tried yet, there is one you would enjoy the most. You would find, and try, this fruit faster if there was a list of fruits ranked by donations. This is a fact. It's the honest truth.

You resist this truth because it would upend your strongly held belief in leadership and democracy.

Regarding leadership, no single member, or subset, of a group has tried more fruit than the group as a whole. Regarding democracy, the majority will never know about some "new" fruit before the minority. Perhaps I'm the only member of nationstates that has heard of the achacha. Sadly I still haven't had the chance to try it yet.


I think supporting the forum would be the primary perk of donating to it.
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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:17 am

Xerographica wrote:Out of all the fruits you haven't tried yet, there is one you would enjoy the most. You would find, and try, this fruit faster if there was a list of fruits ranked by donations. This is a fact. It's the honest truth.

You resist this truth because it would upend your strongly held belief in leadership and democracy.

and not, y'know, because some obscure fruit would be buried by the normie fruits because fucking obviously.
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The Holy Therns
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Postby The Holy Therns » Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:21 am

Necroghastia wrote:
Xerographica wrote:Out of all the fruits you haven't tried yet, there is one you would enjoy the most. You would find, and try, this fruit faster if there was a list of fruits ranked by donations. This is a fact. It's the honest truth.

You resist this truth because it would upend your strongly held belief in leadership and democracy.

and not, y'know, because some obscure fruit would be buried by the normie fruits because fucking obviously.


Xero: Donation voting would elevate rare fruits!

Donation voting: APPLE.
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The Jamesian Republic
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Postby The Jamesian Republic » Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:25 am

I thought this was about debating Libertarianism and Pragmatism not fruit.

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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:29 am

ranking fruits by donations also says nothing about whether you personally would like it or not, because that tells you nothing about the taste, texture, consistency, or nutritional value. aka things that actually matter when you're eating something.

now this? this is a ranking system.
Last edited by Necroghastia on Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:35 am

Necroghastia wrote:ranking fruits by donations also says nothing about whether you personally would like it or not, because that tells you nothing about the taste, texture, consistency, or nutritional value. aka things that actually matter when you're eating something.

now this? this is a ranking system.

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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:35 am

Xerographica wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:I wonder if theres a reason none of the forums you are on have heeded the call to facilitate donations for decision making. Or why such logic stubbornly fails to make progress towards adoption in real life important contexts as is your eventual aim.

Widespread lack of interest in spending money to be able to properly participate in discussions which they can currently get fully involved in without spending money?

Perhaps from an individual point of view what you suggest is wildly inefficient because the vast majority of people don't actually *want* to spend money, and the majority will reject the legitimacy of the result of your money vote?

Maybe this idea comes across as even more out of touch than previously as a general model for society in the context of a cost of living crisis where people in the developed societies you're suggesting this for currently can't in many cases afford to heat their homes or buy food for their kids?

No, it's the children who are wrong!

Some members of the rare fruit forum already donate to it. In their case the option to help rank fruit would simply be an additional perk. Well, I think it would be the only perk.

Out of all the fruits you haven't tried yet, there is one you would enjoy the most. You would find, and try, this fruit faster if there was a list of fruits ranked by donations. This is a fact. It's the honest truth.

You resist this truth because it would upend your strongly held belief in leadership and democracy.

Regarding leadership, no single member, or subset, of a group has tried more fruit than the group as a whole. Regarding democracy, the majority will never know about some "new" fruit before the minority. Perhaps I'm the only member of nationstates that has heard of the achacha. Sadly I still haven't had the chance to try it yet.


For many years we've seen the same combination of rambling anecdotes followed by bald assertions of this system's supposed objective superiority. Evidently many other forums have as well. Any contrary argument simply slides off and is never addressed in the next regurgitated version of the Z-tier marketing spiel. Yet whenever and wherever your try to sell this you are roundly mocked and the overwhelming response is that people are not interested. You do not have some wonderful, efficiency-maximising system here. The requirement for people to invest scarce monetary resources (which are also unevenly distributed) raises the bar for participation and distorts the signalling in favour of those with the most resources who could more widely participate. That in itself introduces a huge inefficiency in the signalling of the system, and makes it far far worse than what we already have.
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:37 am

The Jamesian Republic wrote:I thought this was about debating Libertarianism and Pragmatism not fruit.

Feel free to be the 1st to address this point in the OP...
Xerographica wrote:Donations have been used to rank the themes of the past few libertarian conventions, unlike the dates and locations. The Invisible Hand can be trusted to rank the themes, but it can't be trusted to rank the dates and locations?

Libertarianism is characterized by a highly incoherent viewpoint on the Invisible Hand, unlike pragmatarianism.
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The Holy Therns
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Father Knows Best State

Postby The Holy Therns » Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:38 am

Xerographica wrote:
The Jamesian Republic wrote:I thought this was about debating Libertarianism and Pragmatism not fruit.

Feel free to be the 1st to address this point in the OP...
Xerographica wrote:Donations have been used to rank the themes of the past few libertarian conventions, unlike the dates and locations. The Invisible Hand can be trusted to rank the themes, but it can't be trusted to rank the dates and locations?

Libertarianism is characterized by a highly incoherent viewpoint on the Invisible Hand, unlike pragmatarianism.


Your hammer doesn't actually transform every problem into a nail.

But you've been told that here for a decade.
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Nue Cascadia
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Postby Nue Cascadia » Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:43 am

Libertarianism is the only ideology that can function without tearing itself apart every 20 years. It's the only feasibly realistic ideology.
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