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Functions of a Government

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
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Elwher
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Founded: May 24, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Functions of a Government

Postby Elwher » Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:59 pm

What, in your ideal state, would the government do? I'll start with mine.

Military to defend against outside violence;
Police to defend against inside violence;
Civil Courts to defend against fraud and enforce freely entered-into contracts

Beyond that, no coercive functions. For example, food inspections should not be mandatory BUT if not inspected, they must be clearly labeled as such so people can make their choice as an educated consumer. If not labeled or if mislabeled, see function 3 above.
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The Black Forrest
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:01 pm

Oh no.

Sorry. I like food being safe. I have had food poisoning and it’s not worth waiting for the “free market” getting around to correcting it.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
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PhilTech
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Founded: Sep 29, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby PhilTech » Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:54 pm

I just wish for a government free from the Culture of Corruption.

The Irony is that this nation of mine is an extremely corrupted City-State, so there's that.
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Dimetrodon Empire
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Dimetrodon Empire » Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:57 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:Oh no.

Sorry. I like food being safe. I have had food poisoning and it’s not worth waiting for the “free market” getting around to correcting it.

Not to mention that such a scenario would turn society into a mine field and push the responsibility onto the consumer. Get poisoned by bad food? Your fault. Fall victim to fraud? Your fault. Don't have enough money to sue? Well, sucks to be you.

Billionaires manipulating markets? They're geniuses.
"They say evil prevails when good men fail to act. What they ought to say is, evil prevails." -Yuri ; Lord of War

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Kerwa
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Founded: Jul 24, 2021
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Kerwa » Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:07 pm

Dimetrodon Empire wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:Oh no.

Sorry. I like food being safe. I have had food poisoning and it’s not worth waiting for the “free market” getting around to correcting it.

Not to mention that such a scenario would turn society into a mine field and push the responsibility onto the consumer. Get poisoned by bad food? Your fault. Fall victim to fraud? Your fault. Don't have enough money to sue? Well, sucks to be you.

Billionaires manipulating markets? They're geniuses.


Thank god we are free from fraud and food poisoning with plenty of money to sue in our Wall Street run paradise eh?

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The Black Forrest
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Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:14 pm

Kerwa wrote:
Dimetrodon Empire wrote:Not to mention that such a scenario would turn society into a mine field and push the responsibility onto the consumer. Get poisoned by bad food? Your fault. Fall victim to fraud? Your fault. Don't have enough money to sue? Well, sucks to be you.

Billionaires manipulating markets? They're geniuses.


Thank god we are free from fraud and food poisoning with plenty of money to sue in our Wall Street run paradise eh?


Ohhhhh you are one of those.

Look I found fraud! The system doesn’t work! RUN!!!! SAVE YOURSELVES!!!!

Ok. I am bored.

What should society be? If it’s an ancap thing. Don’t bother. Just say ancap…..
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

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Dimetrodon Empire
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Founded: Sep 21, 2022
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Dimetrodon Empire » Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:15 pm

Kerwa wrote:
Dimetrodon Empire wrote:Not to mention that such a scenario would turn society into a mine field and push the responsibility onto the consumer. Get poisoned by bad food? Your fault. Fall victim to fraud? Your fault. Don't have enough money to sue? Well, sucks to be you.

Billionaires manipulating markets? They're geniuses.


Thank god we are free from fraud and food poisoning with plenty of money to sue in our Wall Street run paradise eh?

And gutting those regulations would turn our situation from bad to worse. :roll:
"They say evil prevails when good men fail to act. What they ought to say is, evil prevails." -Yuri ; Lord of War

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Picairn
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Founded: Feb 21, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Picairn » Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:17 pm

The whole Pure Food and Drug Act was passed because American companies were putting formaldehyde in your food and opium in babies' medicine.
Last edited by Picairn on Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Kerwa
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Founded: Jul 24, 2021
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Kerwa » Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:35 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Kerwa wrote:
Thank god we are free from fraud and food poisoning with plenty of money to sue in our Wall Street run paradise eh?


Ohhhhh you are one of those.

Look I found fraud! The system doesn’t work! RUN!!!! SAVE YOURSELVES!!!!

Ok. I am bored.

What should society be? If it’s an ancap thing. Don’t bother. Just say ancap…..


Maybe start caring about the corruption. That might be a start, rather than arguing over things that won’t happen in any event.

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Kerwa
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Founded: Jul 24, 2021
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Kerwa » Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:36 pm

Dimetrodon Empire wrote:
Kerwa wrote:
Thank god we are free from fraud and food poisoning with plenty of money to sue in our Wall Street run paradise eh?

And gutting those regulations would turn our situation from bad to worse. :roll:


Well arguably regulatory capture is in fact worse than no regulation. But that’s not what I’m getting at.

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Clownish Dystopia
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 4
Founded: Dec 03, 2022
Ex-Nation

Postby Clownish Dystopia » Sat Dec 03, 2022 9:06 pm

Picairn wrote:The whole Pure Food and Drug Act was passed because American companies were putting formaldehyde in your food and opium in babies' medicine.


And we should bring that back because... freedom! /s

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The Black Forrest
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54149
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Sat Dec 03, 2022 9:11 pm

Kerwa wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
Ohhhhh you are one of those.

Look I found fraud! The system doesn’t work! RUN!!!! SAVE YOURSELVES!!!!

Ok. I am bored.

What should society be? If it’s an ancap thing. Don’t bother. Just say ancap…..


Maybe start caring about the corruption. That might be a start, rather than arguing over things that won’t happen in any event.


Yes and how do we do that?
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

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Bombadil
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Posts: 17148
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bombadil » Sat Dec 03, 2022 9:25 pm

1. A strong legal framework (legislature, legal and enforcement) that provides equality before the law
2. Investment in the education and health of the population
3. Investment in infrastructure projects that further the nation

Take the money out of elections, each candidate receives:
1. A templated website laying out their policies in key areas
2. 3 televised/webcast debates at region(i.e state)/federal level, town hall/webcast debates at local level

That's it, no advertising or PACs.

All media to placed in trusts, ensuring the finance side and the editorial side are kept separate, given their importance I'd be open to government subsidies to ensure at least every city and rural area has access to media relevant to them.

And yes, render unto Caesar that which is Caesars, complete separation of religion and state.
Last edited by Bombadil on Sat Dec 03, 2022 9:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

十年

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Elwher
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Founded: May 24, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Elwher » Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:26 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:Oh no.

Sorry. I like food being safe. I have had food poisoning and it’s not worth waiting for the “free market” getting around to correcting it.


And if you only purchase food that has been certified as inspected, you will not get food poisoning.
CYNIC, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be. Hence the custom among the Scythians of plucking out a cynic's eyes to improve his vision.
Ambrose Bierce

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23477
Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:27 pm

Elwher wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:Oh no.

Sorry. I like food being safe. I have had food poisoning and it’s not worth waiting for the “free market” getting around to correcting it.


And if you only purchase food that has been certified as inspected, you will not get food poisoning.

you can fake those stamps extraordinarily easily... as the innumerate numbers of people dealing with food stuff fraud in PRC demonstrates
Last edited by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary on Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Elwher
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Founded: May 24, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Elwher » Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:32 pm

Bombadil wrote:1. A strong legal framework (legislature, legal and enforcement) that provides equality before the law
2. Investment in the education and health of the population
3. Investment in infrastructure projects that further the nation

Take the money out of elections, each candidate receives:
1. A templated website laying out their policies in key areas
2. 3 televised/webcast debates at region(i.e state)/federal level, town hall/webcast debates at local level

That's it, no advertising or PACs.

All media to placed in trusts, ensuring the finance side and the editorial side are kept separate, given their importance I'd be open to government subsidies to ensure at least every city and rural area has access to media relevant to them.

And yes, render unto Caesar that which is Caesars, complete separation of religion and state.


I like your last two, at first glance, but the devil is in the details. For example, who decides what the key areas for a particular office are?

As to the first 3, number 1 is fully in line with my preferred functions. Number 2 is acceptable as long as the educational system is non-coercive, giving people the right to opt-out and educate their children as they see fit. As to #3, if the investment will actually further the nation, it could be accomplished by private industry.
CYNIC, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be. Hence the custom among the Scythians of plucking out a cynic's eyes to improve his vision.
Ambrose Bierce

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Rusozak
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Founded: Jun 14, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Rusozak » Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:48 pm

Looks like we're doing the thing again where libertarians act like "wash your hands" signs are tyranny. Just read The Jungle. Libertarians want to take us back to the god damn gilded age I swear. What's next, children have a right to work in coal mines?
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Page
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Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Page » Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:28 am

I feel about government how any decent human being should feel about sex: There should be no coercion involved and one is free at any time to withdraw consent. Just like I would defer to the wisdom of a doctor on medical matters, I am willing to defer to the wisdom of those most qualified to organize and protect a community to govern, but in both cases I reserve the right to disregard advice and make my own decisions.

As to what the purpose of government ought to be, a government should maximize the well-being and minimize the suffering of a people to the best of its ability. A truly democratic government can and should do whatever a community thinks it can do best and allows it to do.
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Charrou
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Charrou » Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:31 am

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Bombadil
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Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bombadil » Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:07 am

Elwher wrote:As to the first 3, number 1 is fully in line with my preferred functions. Number 2 is acceptable as long as the educational system is non-coercive, giving people the right to opt-out and educate their children as they see fit. As to #3, if the investment will actually further the nation, it could be accomplished by private industry.


Opt out if you want your child to be stupid, I’m kind of ok with the idea other than it allows child abuse, part of a well funded education is ensuring children can’t be kept out of school, out of the system and out of protection, currently the average spend on education is between 3-8% of GDP, it should be 15.

For #3, no private company will make upfront investment in technology, or road or rail infrastructure. They just won’t. There is greater return in government upfront investment over short term capitalist return.
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Emotional Support Crocodile
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Emotional Support Crocodile » Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:12 am

To provide the things everybody needs, like safe drinking water.
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Clownish Dystopia
Political Columnist
 
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Founded: Dec 03, 2022
Ex-Nation

Postby Clownish Dystopia » Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:28 am

Rusozak wrote:Looks like we're doing the thing again where libertarians act like "wash your hands" signs are tyranny. Just read The Jungle. Libertarians want to take us back to the god damn gilded age I swear. What's next, children have a right to work in coal mines?

Yes: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/06/07/ ... disagrees/

They are a corporate movement, and yes, the gilded age is their desired outcome.
Last edited by Clownish Dystopia on Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kubra
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Kubra » Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:43 am

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Gravlen
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Gravlen » Sun Dec 04, 2022 5:01 am

Elwher wrote:What, in your ideal state, would the government do? I'll start with mine.

Military to defend against outside violence;
Police to defend against inside violence;
Civil Courts to defend against fraud and enforce freely entered-into contracts

Beyond that, no coercive functions. For example, food inspections should not be mandatory BUT if not inspected, they must be clearly labeled as such so people can make their choice as an educated consumer. If not labeled or if mislabeled, see function 3 above.

So if I murder someone, I should face no consequences if the police shows up after I'm done with my violent act? Neat.
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The United Penguin Commonwealth
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Founded: Feb 01, 2022
Democratic Socialists

Postby The United Penguin Commonwealth » Sun Dec 04, 2022 5:52 am

Elwher wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:Oh no.

Sorry. I like food being safe. I have had food poisoning and it’s not worth waiting for the “free market” getting around to correcting it.


And if you only purchase food that has been certified as inspected, you will not get food poisoning.


or we could just inspect all of the food and then there's less of a chance of a customer making a mistake and dying of food poisoning.

is there an actual reason that we shouldn't do that, or just government bad?
Last edited by The United Penguin Commonwealth on Sun Dec 04, 2022 5:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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