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New Civilizations [OOC | Always Open]

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G-Tech Corporation
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 62124
Founded: Feb 03, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

New Civilizations [OOC | Always Open]

Postby G-Tech Corporation » Mon Oct 10, 2022 1:34 pm

Image

--New Civilizations--





Welcome to the World That Might Be...






╔═══════════════╗
-Introductions-
╚═══════════════╝



You're an old soul in a new world. You are given no explanation - no cause of knowing how you arrived here - nor reason for being here. You don't know where or when you have landed. You are alone, you are naked, and no one is looking for you. You have come just in time to witness the end of humanity's blank slate: the time before history and civilization. Man is finally beginning to understand his real power, and will soon understand his place in the world. You, are the product his quest for knowledge and mastery over the Earth. You have seen the culmination of 5,000 years of labor, before miraculously being sent back to the beginning of it all. No reason was given to you for arriving here, so you must make the reason! Why were you sent to the beginning of time? How did you shape our journey? The history books are blank once again, and you - you shall be the Author!

»»————-  ————-««

Welcome to New Civilizations! A game, which sends you, either your literal self, or a person very like yourself, back five thousand years into the past - the dawn of history, and civilization. There is no explanation of how you arrived, or even why you are here. Not only has the world changed around you, but you have changed as well. From the day you arrive in the past, forever onward, you will not age. You've become a timeless immortal! What is more, you are able to, unconsciously and instinctively, understand and speak every language you come into contact with; your body has become immune to receiving or transmuting disease - though you are still able to be killed by other unnatural means. Sent to the past, as a timeless and near-immortal, you are free to shape history and mankind's journey over the millennia as you see fit - restrained only by your reason, your means, and the will of other Authors. Typically though, you are expected to fashion some kind of civilization or culture - this is an ultimate sandbox game. New Civilizations is one of the oldest and most successful Role Play games in the history of NationStates.net, with the very first iteration having been made all the way back in 2016! In joining our ranks as a fellow Author of mankind's new history, you shall count yourself among some of the most accomplished and imaginative members of the role playing community! We're always open, to new and old players alike!




╔═══════════════╗
-Rules and Expectations-
╚═══════════════╝


1.General NS rules
2. You may not post your author profile to the author list until you have been accepted by the Opening Poster, G-Tech Corporation, or Saxony-Brandenburg, his Co-Op.
3. Your Author should not be someone who just happens to be perfectly suited for the time period. You can't be an expert in metallurgy, blacksmithing, masonry, and carpentry. Your Author should be an otherwise normal person with normal skills. It is preferred that your Author resemble you as much as possible (be yourself if you want), though exceptions will be made if deemed reasonable.
4. The people of the year 2,960 B.C., are not stupid - or even that ignorant. They are, in their own way, usually just as logical and reasonable as you are now - you crafting some bronze and making a shovel isn't going to make people think you are a god. What is more, these people aren't going to make you chief of their village simply because you killed the old chief in a fight. That'd be unreasonable today, it'd be unreasonable then. Treat the ancient humans like they were actual human beings with fully functioning brains.
5. You arrive in this world naked - literally. You come in with nothing.
6. There is no set rule for time skips. At opportune moments in the story, I will do a small global skip a few years into the future. Every participant will be warned ahead of time of when this skip will happen. Prior to these skips, try not to jump more than a few months or a year ahead in your characters development - and significantly less when you are just starting out.
7. You are free to write the reactions of denizens of the past as you see fit. On occasion, I or a CO-OP might intervene simply to make the story more interesting. You are limited in reacting for the ancients of another Author's civilization by what that particular Author will permit (if allowing you to react on their behalf at all).
8. You will arrive in this world after having awoken from sleep.
9. Your Author should not just instantly comprehend with their situation; some kind of panic should be expected.
10. Skills listed in your Author Profile should be specific, relevant to your current situation, and things to which you posses a degree of expertise at. You actually must be an knowledgeable expert at the skill which you list, in order to declare that you have it.
11. Do not list any of the following as a skill: historical knowledge, oration, charisma, leadership, military tactics - unless you have very hard skills in these areas. Do note that skills which are deemed too broad will have to be clarified until they fit our criterion for acceptance.



╔═══════════════╗
-Author Profile-
╚═══════════════╝



Code: Select all
[size=200][i][b]Author Application[/b][/i][/size]
[b]Name:[/b]
[b]Age:[/b]
[b]Height and Weight:[/b]
[b]Physical Description:[/b]
[b]( Optional ) Picture:[/b]

[b]Prior Profession:[/b]
[b]Level of Education - Formal or Informal:[/b]
[b]Physique:[/b]
[b]Useful Skills:[/b]

[b]National Origin:[/b]
[b]What were you doing prior to falling asleep and awakening in the past?:[/b]
[b]Description of Personality:[/b]
[b]Where in the world are you landing?:[/b]

[b]Autobiography/Biography:[/b]

[b]Writing Sample:[/b]


[b]What are your intentions for this RP; what do you think your Author will seek to accomplish?:[/b]
[b]What people or places are you taking inspiration from?:[/b]
[b]Why did you chose to land where you did?:[/b]
[b]What vibe should we get from your civilization and its culture, if you seek to establish one?:[/b]
[b]What are your character's motivations?:[/b]
[b]Theme Song?:[/b]
[b]What do you wanna see in this RP? What would make it better?:[/b]
Last edited by G-Tech Corporation on Mon Dec 19, 2022 5:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
TG if you have questions about RP. If I don't know the answer, I know someone who does.

Quite the unofficial fellow. P2TM Mentor specializing in faction and nation RPs, as well as RPGs.

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G-Tech Corporation
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 62124
Founded: Feb 03, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby G-Tech Corporation » Mon Oct 10, 2022 1:34 pm

-FAQ-

A big question which often plagues Authors is how fast technology should progress, and what kinds of technologies would be available to them. You are free to explore off in any direction you want to, technology-wise, but you should probably keep some things in mind.

1. If you personally do not know how to do this thing right now IRL, your Author won't either.

2. You are starting out from as scratch as literally possible. You are coming into a world naked, during a time were writing and numeracy are practically unknown to anyone outside of other Author civilizations. Very basic laws and concepts of science and the world have not been invented yet, and are likely unknown to the average person. Most places are still using stone tools, and others are just beginning to use copper. The people of this era may be as rational and logical as you are, but that isn't to say that they have access to any specialty tools or knowledge. You will pretty much have to reinvent all the basic concepts of science

3. You are constrained by your resources. If you wanna make bronze, but the area you live in doesn't have any tin - well then you're out of luck.

4. You can learn new knowledge and skills in the IC, it just takes time. Say you wanted to demonstrate your Author's ever growing affinity with carpentry, then you should show them, over a series of multiple posts, experimenting and figuring out the skills needed to be a carpenter. This goes with pretty much everything: blacksmithing, chemistry, tactics, medicine, sailing, etc.

5. If you aren't sure about the feasibility of something, just ask either myself, G-Tech, or post it up in the OOC. You will get helpful feedback and advice from your fellow Authors. Don't try and just fake it - you will be found out eventually, and may be asked to retcon your actions.


History is just a record of the actions of man, and culture is just a man's history remembered. Civilization isn't some arbitrary numerical measurement of a people, it is subjective. What kind of society do you want to build? What actions will propel the people around you towards that goal? What obstacles must you overcome? There is no objective way for a civilization to form, you've just got to figure it out on your own. Look to other Author's for examples if need inspiration.


A lot like regular non-civilized natives do - except a whole lot tougher. These guys aren't barbarians with clubs, these are civilized early nation's in their own right, with developed cultures, political systems, and reasonably advanced technology. Uncivilized peoples are pretty easy to conquer or convince to join your civ, by NPC civ's are a very different story. Your interactions with them will largely be left for you to write out in the IC - with occasional intervention perhaps from either of your OPs.


Eh, that depends. 1. How long were you gone in relation to the IC, 2. Are you still active.

For the first, if you were only gone for say, a single timeskip, and nothing significant happened to your civilization since you've been away, you'll be free to retake command of your old civ. If you were gone for longer, or something significant has happened to your civ, you may be asked to start again somewhere else in the world.

For the second, if you are gone, and your account goes inactive - your author is just presumed dead


Short Answer: Not Central Europe!

Long Answer: Depends. If you are story centric, and don't mind being on your lonesome for a long while, you should probably pick an area far away from any other Author Civ. There, you will have time to explore your own culture, free from having to worry about others interfering with your long term plans.

If you want to interact with others though, and desire rapid technological growth, I would suggest either East Asia, the Levant, or the red sea region. Those places have other authors, and they're not typically as murderous as the Europeans are.
TG if you have questions about RP. If I don't know the answer, I know someone who does.

Quite the unofficial fellow. P2TM Mentor specializing in faction and nation RPs, as well as RPGs.

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Orostan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6243
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Mon Oct 10, 2022 1:58 pm

Hello again.

For my five year time skip I would like:

-A limited way of producing steel or higher quality iron that I develop on the way to cupola furnaces.

-Bandits to not exist in my interior at all, and only exist in border and remote regions which while still important are not a serious threat to the state at this time.

-A large population of allied tribes who while not viewing themselves as Chinese view themselves as subjects to the Emperor. In return for state support and land they pay taxes to the state and follow China’s laws.

-Because my military has been fighting so many bandits, it should be experienced as a whole and the central government armies which are the best men China has should be of exceptional quality. I would also like to rely less on part time soldiers called up for a season in local areas and more on longer term conscription that raises men for two to three years.

-Larger economic and political institutions. Death penalty for corruption will become less common as the state’s capacity expands and it can oversee more officials at once more closely. There are schools specifically for the training of new skilled workers like smiths. These institutions will also become stronger as clan loyalties within the state are broken down and communication ability improves. China will organize an office of the Ministry of the Public Stock only for communication as a precursor to a proper postal service.

-A stronger economy. Improved irrigation and farming techniques means higher yields which require less labor. Because the state can now direct more resources into industrial production cities will grow in size and so will Chinese industrial production. Because China doesn’t have the population to create cities so dense that they begin to have sanitation issues and already builds a lot of sanitation infrastructure this will lead to an increase in quality of life and by extension the state’s legitimacy.

Some issues China might encounter are continuing shortages of raw materials, low levels of literacy among the general population not employed in administration of the state or economy, and very high military spending.
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.
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G-Tech Corporation
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 62124
Founded: Feb 03, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby G-Tech Corporation » Mon Oct 10, 2022 3:08 pm

Orostan wrote:Hello again.

For my five year time skip I would like:

-A limited way of producing steel or higher quality iron that I develop on the way to cupola furnaces.


Incremental improvements to the quality of iron, sure. Steel I'm going to pass on, since innovation won't have exactly been a focus in the YRS when production delays are unconscionable.

-Bandits to not exist in my interior at all, and only exist in border and remote regions which while still important are not a serious threat to the state at this time.


Forgive me if I am mistaken, but isn't China effectively a state of large cities, with large gaps of unintegrated countryside and smaller settlements between them? Just clarifying what you mean by 'interior' - and of course by bandits, you mean enemies, no, not merely the petty commercial brigands that prey on trade.

-A large population of allied tribes who while not viewing themselves as Chinese view themselves as subjects to the Emperor. In return for state support and land they pay taxes to the state and follow China’s laws.


Hmm. Has this been started in any of your posts?

-Because my military has been fighting so many bandits, it should be experienced as a whole and the central government armies which are the best men China has should be of exceptional quality. I would also like to rely less on part time soldiers called up for a season in local areas and more on longer term conscription that raises men for two to three years.


Seems broadly reasonable, understanding, of course, that experience comes at the cost of attrition through combat. Some central units who haven't had the worst of the conflict will be battle-hardened, but those who have had significant losses and thus been rebuilt from new recruits will have seen a drop in the quality of their soldiers. A permanent military class is a good aim, to be sure, though keep in mind that such an army will commensurately put a significantly greater strain on the state's resources; the loss of labor to plough and reap, even in a society working to loose the bonds of agricultural constraints such of yours, will still have repercussions.

-Larger economic and political institutions. Death penalty for corruption will become less common as the state’s capacity expands and it can oversee more officials at once more closely. There are schools specifically for the training of new skilled workers like smiths. These institutions will also become stronger as clan loyalties within the state are broken down and communication ability improves. China will organize an office of the Ministry of the Public Stock only for communication as a precursor to a proper postal service.


Sounds good, with one note. You mention that clan loyalties are being broken down - doesn't the clan-based economic system you promote rather diminish the impetus to stick to one's kinship group?

-A stronger economy. Improved irrigation and farming techniques means higher yields which require less labor. Because the state can now direct more resources into industrial production cities will grow in size and so will Chinese industrial production. Because China doesn’t have the population to create cities so dense that they begin to have sanitation issues and already builds a lot of sanitation infrastructure this will lead to an increase in quality of life and by extension the state’s legitimacy.


Can you give examples of these improved irrigation and farming techniques? Pound for pound I'm going to need a good reason to approve them - a state seeking production without disruption during wartime usually isn't a promoter of innovation which can lead to disruption, so any changes aside from those introduced from the top down are going to be slow and incremental.

Some issues China might encounter are continuing shortages of raw materials, low levels of literacy among the general population not employed in administration of the state or economy, and very high military spending.


Makes sense to me, sure.
TG if you have questions about RP. If I don't know the answer, I know someone who does.

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Suriyanakhon
Minister
 
Posts: 3269
Founded: Apr 27, 2020
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Suriyanakhon » Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:10 pm

From the top of my head,

ー Kampung Rayang becomes a larger town with a local government of clan heads, with Grace as the overarching ruler
ー war between Rayang and the Neo-Hindu colony in northern Taiwan
ー Hanajima has settled Eastern Japan and Hokkaido, while trying to colonize and assimilate the native Siberian population
ー Buddhist revival in Osaka which is spreading across Western Japan and into Korea and Ryukyu
ー small Hanajima outpost in northern Taiwan which is limited because of resources being tied to the eastward expansion
ー production of iron armor in Hanajima to replace older forms made of bamboo and leather
Last edited by Suriyanakhon on Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Resident Drowned Victorian Waif & Theravada Buddhist
dO yOu LiStEn tO gIrL iN rEd
Kagawa Toyohiko wrote:I want to be God-all-knowing and all-powerful, creator of supreme beauty. This is my essence. I want to get out of my skin and become God.

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G-Tech Corporation
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 62124
Founded: Feb 03, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby G-Tech Corporation » Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:30 pm

Suriyanakhon wrote:From the top of my head,

ー Kampung Rayang becomes a larger town with a local government of clan heads, with Grace as the overarching ruler
ー war between Rayang and the Neo-Hindu colony in northern Taiwan
ー Hanajima has settled Eastern Japan and Hokkaido, while trying to colonize and assimilate the native Siberian population
ー Buddhist revival in Osaka which is spreading across Western Japan and into Korea and Ryukyu
ー small Hanajima outpost in northern Taiwan which is limited because of resources being tied to the eastward expansion
ー production of iron armor in Hanajima to replace older forms made of bamboo and leather


Broadly looks like good jazz. The iron armor - we’re talking scale mail? Chain mail? Coat of plates?
TG if you have questions about RP. If I don't know the answer, I know someone who does.

Quite the unofficial fellow. P2TM Mentor specializing in faction and nation RPs, as well as RPGs.

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The Orson Empire
Post Czar
 
Posts: 31347
Founded: Mar 20, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Orson Empire » Mon Oct 10, 2022 6:00 pm

I'm unsure how far Tarcun would progress. I feel like not much would change at all in five years.

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G-Tech Corporation
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 62124
Founded: Feb 03, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby G-Tech Corporation » Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:17 am

The Orson Empire wrote:I'm unsure how far Tarcun would progress. I feel like not much would change at all in five years.


Hmm. Fair enough. Then what of Trevor's personal development?
TG if you have questions about RP. If I don't know the answer, I know someone who does.

Quite the unofficial fellow. P2TM Mentor specializing in faction and nation RPs, as well as RPGs.

User avatar
Orostan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6243
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:54 am

G-Tech Corporation wrote:
Orostan wrote:Hello again.

For my five year time skip I would like:

-A limited way of producing steel or higher quality iron that I develop on the way to cupola furnaces.


Incremental improvements to the quality of iron, sure. Steel I'm going to pass on, since innovation won't have exactly been a focus in the YRS when production delays are unconscionable.

-Bandits to not exist in my interior at all, and only exist in border and remote regions which while still important are not a serious threat to the state at this time.


Forgive me if I am mistaken, but isn't China effectively a state of large cities, with large gaps of unintegrated countryside and smaller settlements between them? Just clarifying what you mean by 'interior' - and of course by bandits, you mean enemies, no, not merely the petty commercial brigands that prey on trade.

-A large population of allied tribes who while not viewing themselves as Chinese view themselves as subjects to the Emperor. In return for state support and land they pay taxes to the state and follow China’s laws.


Hmm. Has this been started in any of your posts?

-Because my military has been fighting so many bandits, it should be experienced as a whole and the central government armies which are the best men China has should be of exceptional quality. I would also like to rely less on part time soldiers called up for a season in local areas and more on longer term conscription that raises men for two to three years.


Seems broadly reasonable, understanding, of course, that experience comes at the cost of attrition through combat. Some central units who haven't had the worst of the conflict will be battle-hardened, but those who have had significant losses and thus been rebuilt from new recruits will have seen a drop in the quality of their soldiers. A permanent military class is a good aim, to be sure, though keep in mind that such an army will commensurately put a significantly greater strain on the state's resources; the loss of labor to plough and reap, even in a society working to loose the bonds of agricultural constraints such of yours, will still have repercussions.

-Larger economic and political institutions. Death penalty for corruption will become less common as the state’s capacity expands and it can oversee more officials at once more closely. There are schools specifically for the training of new skilled workers like smiths. These institutions will also become stronger as clan loyalties within the state are broken down and communication ability improves. China will organize an office of the Ministry of the Public Stock only for communication as a precursor to a proper postal service.


Sounds good, with one note. You mention that clan loyalties are being broken down - doesn't the clan-based economic system you promote rather diminish the impetus to stick to one's kinship group?

-A stronger economy. Improved irrigation and farming techniques means higher yields which require less labor. Because the state can now direct more resources into industrial production cities will grow in size and so will Chinese industrial production. Because China doesn’t have the population to create cities so dense that they begin to have sanitation issues and already builds a lot of sanitation infrastructure this will lead to an increase in quality of life and by extension the state’s legitimacy.


Can you give examples of these improved irrigation and farming techniques? Pound for pound I'm going to need a good reason to approve them - a state seeking production without disruption during wartime usually isn't a promoter of innovation which can lead to disruption, so any changes aside from those introduced from the top down are going to be slow and incremental.

Some issues China might encounter are continuing shortages of raw materials, low levels of literacy among the general population not employed in administration of the state or economy, and very high military spending.


Makes sense to me, sure.

1. Is there no new way of producing higher quality iron I can develop?

2. Yes, but there are smaller towns and villages. There are probably very large depopulated areas between clusters of towns and cities. By interior I mean the areas of my state that are far from the borders. I also don’t think there’s any reason to have conventional banditry be a problem because any bandits can simply get a job for much less risk and more reward. Anyone who is attacking merchants in central China is doing it for reasons other than profit.

3. Yes, I think I’ve mentioned importing allied tribes at least twice.

4. Nobody is recruited right into the central government’s army. People who are there are generally veterans of provincial armies who have fought and won a number of times. Losses in the central government army are a big deal because to replenish them sucking up the best men from the provinces is required and I would be losing incredibly valuable veterans. Rebuilding an army would mean a drop in quality, but it wouldn’t be a catastrophic long term blow.

5. Only outside of the government. Bureaucrats are never assigned to work in their homelands and the military never assigns officers from one clan to soldiers of the same clan. The only exception to this is some soldiers raised for a season and even then it wouldn’t be common.

In the economy different clans will have to rely on each other. If the clan which controls iron production cuts off tools to a clan which farms rice the iron clan will not receive any food for example. The regional government will also tend to crack down on that type of behavior because everyone is harmed by it. Inter-clan competition would usually take the form of trying to control who gets luxury goods like silk and soap or who benefits from building projects. Clan affiliation would matter the least in cities and the most in farming towns which could be populated solely by one group and might have land disputes with other groups.

6. The state was doing this before the war. Innovations would include the building of irrigation canals, improved farming machines and equipment, crop rotation, and the use of dung based fertilizer or guano in areas where it is available. Machines that would be common are moldboard plows, harvesting machines, and threshing machines. Better water control would also help limit flooding that could destroy crop land in parts of the country.
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.
#FreeNSGRojava
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User avatar
Suriyanakhon
Minister
 
Posts: 3269
Founded: Apr 27, 2020
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Suriyanakhon » Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:18 am

G-Tech Corporation wrote:
Suriyanakhon wrote:From the top of my head,

ー Kampung Rayang becomes a larger town with a local government of clan heads, with Grace as the overarching ruler
ー war between Rayang and the Neo-Hindu colony in northern Taiwan
ー Hanajima has settled Eastern Japan and Hokkaido, while trying to colonize and assimilate the native Siberian population
ー Buddhist revival in Osaka which is spreading across Western Japan and into Korea and Ryukyu
ー small Hanajima outpost in northern Taiwan which is limited because of resources being tied to the eastward expansion
ー production of iron armor in Hanajima to replace older forms made of bamboo and leather


Broadly looks like good jazz. The iron armor - we’re talking scale mail? Chain mail? Coat of plates?


Lamellar and laminar.
Last edited by Suriyanakhon on Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Resident Drowned Victorian Waif & Theravada Buddhist
dO yOu LiStEn tO gIrL iN rEd
Kagawa Toyohiko wrote:I want to be God-all-knowing and all-powerful, creator of supreme beauty. This is my essence. I want to get out of my skin and become God.

User avatar
G-Tech Corporation
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 62124
Founded: Feb 03, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby G-Tech Corporation » Tue Oct 11, 2022 12:18 pm

Suriyanakhon wrote:
G-Tech Corporation wrote:
Broadly looks like good jazz. The iron armor - we’re talking scale mail? Chain mail? Coat of plates?


Lamellar and laminar.


Sounds reasonable. I'm sure you no more about the metallic resources of Japan than I, so I'll merely mention to keep those in mind. Otherwise that all sounds good.
TG if you have questions about RP. If I don't know the answer, I know someone who does.

Quite the unofficial fellow. P2TM Mentor specializing in faction and nation RPs, as well as RPGs.

User avatar
G-Tech Corporation
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 62124
Founded: Feb 03, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby G-Tech Corporation » Tue Oct 11, 2022 12:30 pm

Orostan wrote:1. Is there no new way of producing higher quality iron I can develop?


Perhaps I'm mistaken about your conceptions of your own iron, but my recollection was that it was effectively at the apex of what non-metallurgically educated denizens could produce. Smelters without an understanding of chemistry, that is. From there you're looking at a transition to different modes of steel-making, or actual metallurgical chemistry, which I don't recall Aaron possessing.

Unless you were under the impression your iron was still suffering from macroscopic flaws, in which case I'm absolutely happy to sign off on incremental improvements in that department.

2. Yes, but there are smaller towns and villages. There are probably very large depopulated areas between clusters of towns and cities. By interior I mean the areas of my state that are far from the borders. I also don’t think there’s any reason to have conventional banditry be a problem because any bandits can simply get a job for much less risk and more reward. Anyone who is attacking merchants in central China is doing it for reasons other than profit.


Ah, yes - but my question is if those smaller towns and cities swore allegiance to China. I recall you noting in your discussion with Joohan about corruption and the MPS that only the largest settlements were controlled by China proper, because of a desire to prevent the former. Those smaller towns and cities are what I would have considered being in your interior, and taking time to pacify.

3. Yes, I think I’ve mentioned importing allied tribes at least twice.


Ahhhh that you did. I suppose it depends what you mean by 'large', then. A decent figure, say, one in ten inhabitants of China being residents instead of citizens - that would make sense to me, but might not jive with what you think of as large.

4. Nobody is recruited right into the central government’s army. People who are there are generally veterans of provincial armies who have fought and won a number of times. Losses in the central government army are a big deal because to replenish them sucking up the best men from the provinces is required and I would be losing incredibly valuable veterans. Rebuilding an army would mean a drop in quality, but it wouldn’t be a catastrophic long term blow.


Logical, sure. If you're building your central armies exclusively of veterans, they'll be veteran organizations to be sure - aren't they at the forefront of your pacification campaigns though, on the grounds that they have the weapons and capability to wage non-season campaigns? That would indicate to me that they are bearing the highest losses on a formation by formation basis, due to the type of fighting they are enduring.

5. Only outside of the government. Bureaucrats are never assigned to work in their homelands and the military never assigns officers from one clan to soldiers of the same clan. The only exception to this is some soldiers raised for a season and even then it wouldn’t be common.

In the economy different clans will have to rely on each other. If the clan which controls iron production cuts off tools to a clan which farms rice the iron clan will not receive any food for example. The regional government will also tend to crack down on that type of behavior because everyone is harmed by it. Inter-clan competition would usually take the form of trying to control who gets luxury goods like silk and soap or who benefits from building projects. Clan affiliation would matter the least in cities and the most in farming towns which could be populated solely by one group and might have land disputes with other groups.


Sounds like a rational way to describe a state - correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my impression that kinship groups, historically speaking, aren't specialists. Specialization sounds like it would promote clanship identity, as that identity has, well, more to it than merely bloodlines. The bureaucrats and soldiers being from different groups would certainly aid in diminishing the rise of factionalism though, a good touch. But I'm still seeing a net drift towards factionalism?

6. The state was doing this before the war. Innovations would include the building of irrigation canals, improved farming machines and equipment, crop rotation, and the use of dung based fertilizer or guano in areas where it is available. Machines that would be common are moldboard plows, harvesting machines, and threshing machines. Better water control would also help limit flooding that could destroy crop land in parts of the country.


Ah, so you don't mean innovation in terms of nascent technologies, but rather the implementation of existing innovations on a broader basis. Sounds dandy to me. Just keep in mind that things like building canals with mass labor, creating iron machines with skilled labor... all that would have been, I presume, subsumed to the war effort, and so proceeding more slowly than it did before the conflict. Not stopped, but slowed.
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Orostan
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Tue Oct 11, 2022 12:45 pm

G-Tech Corporation wrote:
Orostan wrote:1. Is there no new way of producing higher quality iron I can develop?


Perhaps I'm mistaken about your conceptions of your own iron, but my recollection was that it was effectively at the apex of what non-metallurgically educated denizens could produce. Smelters without an understanding of chemistry, that is. From there you're looking at a transition to different modes of steel-making, or actual metallurgical chemistry, which I don't recall Aaron possessing.

Unless you were under the impression your iron was still suffering from macroscopic flaws, in which case I'm absolutely happy to sign off on incremental improvements in that department.

2. Yes, but there are smaller towns and villages. There are probably very large depopulated areas between clusters of towns and cities. By interior I mean the areas of my state that are far from the borders. I also don’t think there’s any reason to have conventional banditry be a problem because any bandits can simply get a job for much less risk and more reward. Anyone who is attacking merchants in central China is doing it for reasons other than profit.


Ah, yes - but my question is if those smaller towns and cities swore allegiance to China. I recall you noting in your discussion with Joohan about corruption and the MPS that only the largest settlements were controlled by China proper, because of a desire to prevent the former. Those smaller towns and cities are what I would have considered being in your interior, and taking time to pacify.

3. Yes, I think I’ve mentioned importing allied tribes at least twice.


Ahhhh that you did. I suppose it depends what you mean by 'large', then. A decent figure, say, one in ten inhabitants of China being residents instead of citizens - that would make sense to me, but might not jive with what you think of as large.

4. Nobody is recruited right into the central government’s army. People who are there are generally veterans of provincial armies who have fought and won a number of times. Losses in the central government army are a big deal because to replenish them sucking up the best men from the provinces is required and I would be losing incredibly valuable veterans. Rebuilding an army would mean a drop in quality, but it wouldn’t be a catastrophic long term blow.


Logical, sure. If you're building your central armies exclusively of veterans, they'll be veteran organizations to be sure - aren't they at the forefront of your pacification campaigns though, on the grounds that they have the weapons and capability to wage non-season campaigns? That would indicate to me that they are bearing the highest losses on a formation by formation basis, due to the type of fighting they are enduring.

5. Only outside of the government. Bureaucrats are never assigned to work in their homelands and the military never assigns officers from one clan to soldiers of the same clan. The only exception to this is some soldiers raised for a season and even then it wouldn’t be common.

In the economy different clans will have to rely on each other. If the clan which controls iron production cuts off tools to a clan which farms rice the iron clan will not receive any food for example. The regional government will also tend to crack down on that type of behavior because everyone is harmed by it. Inter-clan competition would usually take the form of trying to control who gets luxury goods like silk and soap or who benefits from building projects. Clan affiliation would matter the least in cities and the most in farming towns which could be populated solely by one group and might have land disputes with other groups.


Sounds like a rational way to describe a state - correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my impression that kinship groups, historically speaking, aren't specialists. Specialization sounds like it would promote clanship identity, as that identity has, well, more to it than merely bloodlines. The bureaucrats and soldiers being from different groups would certainly aid in diminishing the rise of factionalism though, a good touch. But I'm still seeing a net drift towards factionalism?

6. The state was doing this before the war. Innovations would include the building of irrigation canals, improved farming machines and equipment, crop rotation, and the use of dung based fertilizer or guano in areas where it is available. Machines that would be common are moldboard plows, harvesting machines, and threshing machines. Better water control would also help limit flooding that could destroy crop land in parts of the country.


Ah, so you don't mean innovation in terms of nascent technologies, but rather the implementation of existing innovations on a broader basis. Sounds dandy to me. Just keep in mind that things like building canals with mass labor, creating iron machines with skilled labor... all that would have been, I presume, subsumed to the war effort, and so proceeding more slowly than it did before the conflict. Not stopped, but slowed.

1. I would like a quality of iron that is good enough so I don’t have to use bronze weapons or rely on other metals as much. I don’t want soldiers to have to walk around with multiple spare halberd heads anymore for example.

2. Those towns and cities are the largest settlements. The people who live in villages that are spread out and difficult to reach are hard to govern. When I talk about my interior I mean the mostly empty land between towns and cities.

3. I think ten percent is a reasonable number but this would be growing as China becomes a safer place to travel.

4. Central government armies basically never fight alone, they are backed up by provincial troops which would probably be equipped as light infantry. I don’t think the central government army would have a high attrition rate considering that most enemies seeing these guys simply flee and in a serious battle these guys are kept out of the fight or in reserve. These guys are better soldiers than everyone else and the hardest fights that only they can win happen very rarely. The only issue about replenishing them and keeping their quality high I can think of would be during winter where they can’t rely on pulling in experienced provincial soldiers, but there is probably much less fighting in winter if there is any at all.

5. Any clan can be put to work in any industry. If Luoyang opens up a new blast furnace there is no guarantee it will be run by the same group as the others. The reason I say clans would matter more in rural areas is because when they grow their own food they’re self sufficient and rely less on working with other groups. Because they’re physically separate intermarriage is also much less likely.

6. The war effort does nothing involve everyone at once, and the more farming equipment I distribute the more soldiers I can raise at once because less people are needed in fields. The limiting factor on the size of my military is how many people I can arm at any one time, not manpower.
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G-Tech Corporation
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Postby G-Tech Corporation » Tue Oct 11, 2022 1:12 pm

Orostan wrote:1. I would like a quality of iron that is good enough so I don’t have to use bronze weapons or rely on other metals as much. I don’t want soldiers to have to walk around with multiple spare halberd heads anymore for example.


Hmm. So iron that is both hard, and tough. Historically, that's the rub, and the reason people began forging what is effectively steel - making a blade that keeps its edge and cuts well is easy, or a blade that doesn't break or shatter, but the combination in iron is the tricky part. Working only from experience, given your mass-industrialization stratagems, I'm afraid I can't see that having ensued yet.

[quote[
2. Those towns and cities are the largest settlements. The people who live in villages that are spread out and difficult to reach are hard to govern. When I talk about my interior I mean the mostly empty land between towns and cities.[/quote]

Sure, sure, but when you talk about your interior I hear plenty of villages - villages which are hostile to China on account of you choking off their gravy train from the MPS. I can't think of a scenario where the peoples of that interior would have already been pacified to any significant extent, so I'll have to pass on that desire for such.

3. I think ten percent is a reasonable number but this would be growing as China becomes a safer place to travel.


Works for me, sure.

4. Central government armies basically never fight alone, they are backed up by provincial troops which would probably be equipped as light infantry. I don’t think the central government army would have a high attrition rate considering that most enemies seeing these guys simply flee and in a serious battle these guys are kept out of the fight or in reserve. These guys are better soldiers than everyone else and the hardest fights that only they can win happen very rarely. The only issue about replenishing them and keeping their quality high I can think of would be during winter where they can’t rely on pulling in experienced provincial soldiers, but there is probably much less fighting in winter if there is any at all.


So your central government armies are only going on campaign when they can pull in seasonal provincial armies to support them? I don't have a problem with that, if that's what you want to do, but it'll certainly slow down your pacification efforts.

5. Any clan can be put to work in any industry. If Luoyang opens up a new blast furnace there is no guarantee it will be run by the same group as the others. The reason I say clans would matter more in rural areas is because when they grow their own food they’re self sufficient and rely less on working with other groups. Because they’re physically separate intermarriage is also much less likely.


So the central government breaks up clans by force to work in any new command economic structures it creates? Or are you simply saying that the government deliberately chooses not to pull from experienced artisan groups when it expands existing industries? That's a good idea, if you're looking to build a wide experience base not contingent upon clan loyalties, but there are pretty serious knock-on effects for overall productivity.

6. The war effort does nothing involve everyone at once, and the more farming equipment I distribute the more soldiers I can raise at once because less people are needed in fields. The limiting factor on the size of my military is how many people I can arm at any one time, not manpower.


Sure, I agree. Just keep in mind that every pound of iron beaten into a halberd is a pound of iron that isn't beaten into a sickle - the expansion of your industries, being rate-limited by the same resources which you need to fight the war, will have had to be commensurately slowed given the amount of expansion your armies have undergone to create the provincial forces, and replace wartime losses.
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Orostan
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Postby Orostan » Tue Oct 11, 2022 1:40 pm

G-Tech Corporation wrote:
Orostan wrote:1. I would like a quality of iron that is good enough so I don’t have to use bronze weapons or rely on other metals as much. I don’t want soldiers to have to walk around with multiple spare halberd heads anymore for example.


Hmm. So iron that is both hard, and tough. Historically, that's the rub, and the reason people began forging what is effectively steel - making a blade that keeps its edge and cuts well is easy, or a blade that doesn't break or shatter, but the combination in iron is the tricky part. Working only from experience, given your mass-industrialization stratagems, I'm afraid I can't see that having ensued yet.

2. Those towns and cities are the largest settlements. The people who live in villages that are spread out and difficult to reach are hard to govern. When I talk about my interior I mean the mostly empty land between towns and cities.


Sure, sure, but when you talk about your interior I hear plenty of villages - villages which are hostile to China on account of you choking off their gravy train from the MPS. I can't think of a scenario where the peoples of that interior would have already been pacified to any significant extent, so I'll have to pass on that desire for such.

3. I think ten percent is a reasonable number but this would be growing as China becomes a safer place to travel.


Works for me, sure.

4. Central government armies basically never fight alone, they are backed up by provincial troops which would probably be equipped as light infantry. I don’t think the central government army would have a high attrition rate considering that most enemies seeing these guys simply flee and in a serious battle these guys are kept out of the fight or in reserve. These guys are better soldiers than everyone else and the hardest fights that only they can win happen very rarely. The only issue about replenishing them and keeping their quality high I can think of would be during winter where they can’t rely on pulling in experienced provincial soldiers, but there is probably much less fighting in winter if there is any at all.


So your central government armies are only going on campaign when they can pull in seasonal provincial armies to support them? I don't have a problem with that, if that's what you want to do, but it'll certainly slow down your pacification efforts.

5. Any clan can be put to work in any industry. If Luoyang opens up a new blast furnace there is no guarantee it will be run by the same group as the others. The reason I say clans would matter more in rural areas is because when they grow their own food they’re self sufficient and rely less on working with other groups. Because they’re physically separate intermarriage is also much less likely.


So the central government breaks up clans by force to work in any new command economic structures it creates? Or are you simply saying that the government deliberately chooses not to pull from experienced artisan groups when it expands existing industries? That's a good idea, if you're looking to build a wide experience base not contingent upon clan loyalties, but there are pretty serious knock-on effects for overall productivity.

6. The war effort does nothing involve everyone at once, and the more farming equipment I distribute the more soldiers I can raise at once because less people are needed in fields. The limiting factor on the size of my military is how many people I can arm at any one time, not manpower.


Sure, I agree. Just keep in mind that every pound of iron beaten into a halberd is a pound of iron that isn't beaten into a sickle - the expansion of your industries, being rate-limited by the same resources which you need to fight the war, will have had to be commensurately slowed given the amount of expansion your armies have undergone to create the provincial forces, and replace wartime losses.

1. Okay, then can I increase production of bronze or make weapons and tools with bronze cores to help combat this tendency of iron weapons and tools to break?

2. There would be almost no villages left in many parts of the country. The people would have left, fled into towns if they were loyal to the state, and killed or captured if they were rebels. I am not claiming that the interior people have been pacified, I am claiming that they do not exist in much of the country.

4. No, and they shouldn't need provincial help during winter because there would be very limited fighting during winter. The issue is replenishment during that time, not actually fighting (which they would doing much less of than during a warmer period).

5. The government has no choice, there are not enough experienced artisans. The biggest drain on productivity in China is that there are very few experienced people in any industry. The only reason the industrial base of China can consistently expand is because people have been taught to replicate processes and machines exactly as instructed. Most people who are working on blast furnaces for example do not understand the principles of a blast furnace, they only know how to operate and build one exactly the way the engineer who directs them told them to. Even the engineer doesn't understand it completely, he's there because he can read, do measurements, and understands how to build something.

The MPS might ask a clan familiar with the technology to train another group to run a blast furnace but its not going to give more long term work to a group which is already running at maximum capacity.

6. That is true but combat is not taking place constantly while iron production and refining is. I can also replace the blades on harvesting equipment or plows with lesser metals which will not take iron from other purposes. During the winter when fighting is less common and soldiers aren't breaking their weapons iron can be directed towards civilian use and stockpiled for the summer when iron needs to be directed to more military uses. There is also less fighting in general across China so the military will need less replacement weapons.

Military spending is always a loss for the economy but I don't think that it would be such a burden as to slow down economic growth in many industries by a high degree because I can recycle lost iron and would only lose limited amounts to theft from battlefields. Nobody who picks up a broken halberd from will be able to repair it or make it into something useful without a state controlled iron works, and if they want to try and sell it back to the state it is a quick way to get arrested for what is basically banditry. It's in everyone else's interest to stop them from doing that.
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Ralnis
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Postby Ralnis » Wed Oct 12, 2022 8:19 am

So I'm gonna try again and redo my app to land in Solcal and make Norton's Empire come true from the ashes of failed Communism.
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Saxony-Brandenburg
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Postby Saxony-Brandenburg » Wed Oct 12, 2022 11:28 am

Would you mind if I postpone my time skip summary for a few posts during the actual timeskip until I feel like I know the direction I’m headed?
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G-Tech Corporation
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Postby G-Tech Corporation » Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:02 pm

Saxony-Brandenburg wrote:Would you mind if I postpone my time skip summary for a few posts during the actual timeskip until I feel like I know the direction I’m headed?


Sure, that works for me.

Ralnis wrote:So I'm gonna try again and redo my app to land in Solcal and make Norton's Empire come true from the ashes of failed Communism.


You sure you don't want to make true bandit Communism in China, like you planned?
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Postby Saxony-Brandenburg » Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:03 pm

Also sorry friends but the process of writing fewer longer posts has kind of traumatized me. I may return to the standard original length of 3,000 words a post ;;-;;
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Melon Heads
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Postby Melon Heads » Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:09 pm

Saxony-Brandenburg wrote:Also sorry friends but the process of writing fewer longer posts has kind of traumatized me. I may return to the standard original length of 3,000 words a post ;;-;;


>She says as if 3000 words isn't like seven pages long. And you still post more often then I do!
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Okay, if you’re so great, you do it— here’s the pencil, make it work . . .
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Postby Melon Heads » Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:18 pm

Howdy! I'm sorry I haven't posted my part 4 yet, family's in hospital so I'm focused on that these past few days. Got a good few pages written already though! And once I got that I'll write the updated application and timeskip to the new current year.

I have a couple ideas for what I want to develop in Kemet/Egypt, but seeing as my fellow is still getting established they aren't going to be at the forefront of any of it. I do plan on them steadily growing more respected over time until they have a standing in the society of the Two Lands. : )

    ●Having been too young to rule when he became Pharaoh, Den's mother Meritneith had been regent in his stead. Den has recently come of age and is looking to prove himself by going to, and winning a war. As of now this is still in the preparatory stage. (Aka I have to find somewhere to pillage in the name of Den and Egypt)

    ●Hearing of the new fads being used to the East to measure taxes, new heiroglyphs are developed introduced for mathmatical purposes such as measuring their own taxes and the calendar.

    ●Turquoise mining in the Sinai peninsula has stalled in the past couple years, new groups have been sent from the capital of Thinis to observe the area and see what improvements can be made.

    ●I'm not sure exactly what Geordi will be up to just yet, probably something medicine related. (no im not crazy im telling you diseases are caused by tiny organisms that live in the air and bugs and in your body!) I feel like they're going to end up in the war that the Pharaoh Den is planning, but it's still a work in progress.
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You said I could have anything I wanted, but I just couldn’t say it out loud.
Actually, you said Love, for you, is larger than the usual romantic love. It’s like a religion. It’s  terrifying. No one will ever want to sleep with you.
Okay, if you’re so great, you do it— here’s the pencil, make it work . . .
Build me a city and call it Jerusalem. Build me another and call it Jerusalem.
We have come back from Jerusalem where we found not what we sought, so do it over, give me another version.
The entire history of human desire takes about seventy minutes to tell.
Unfortunately, we don’t have that kind of time.
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Ralnis
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Ralnis » Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:41 pm

G-Tech Corporation wrote:
Saxony-Brandenburg wrote:Would you mind if I postpone my time skip summary for a few posts during the actual timeskip until I feel like I know the direction I’m headed?


Sure, that works for me.

Ralnis wrote:So I'm gonna try again and redo my app to land in Solcal and make Norton's Empire come true from the ashes of failed Communism.


You sure you don't want to make true bandit Communism in China, like you planned?

Is that still possible to do that? I thought that Oorstan managed to stamped them out finally?
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Orostan
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:02 pm

Ralnis wrote:
G-Tech Corporation wrote:
Sure, that works for me.



You sure you don't want to make true bandit Communism in China, like you planned?

Is that still possible to do that? I thought that Oorstan managed to stamped them out finally?

It’s possible. There are a lot of places where a small group can hide in China.
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.
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Ralnis
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Ralnis » Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:14 pm

Orostan wrote:
Ralnis wrote:Is that still possible to do that? I thought that Oorstan managed to stamped them out finally?

It’s possible. There are a lot of places where a small group can hide in China.

Hide in the capital, burn it down? Cool!
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Suriyanakhon
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Postby Suriyanakhon » Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:33 pm

Tbh Ral, I'd really recommend picking an area on the globe that requires you to not have to collaborate with Oro to any extent. The time that I had to do it was a waste of time and a constant headache.
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