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Left-wing Extremism: A "Diversity" of Tactics

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The Proud Transphobe
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Left-wing Extremism: A "Diversity" of Tactics

Postby The Proud Transphobe » Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:22 pm

In regards to left-wing extremism and Marxist ideology,
  • Has anyone here escaped the far-left echo-chamber?
  • What did it take for you to get away from the collectivist cult?
  • Have any of your friends (or family) been seduced by Marxist ideology?
  • What can be done to help people renounce left-wing extremism?

(Yes, this is a direct challenge to this topic. Extremism exists on both sides, and we're going to talk about it, gosh darn it!)
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Sordhau
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Postby Sordhau » Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:26 pm

Left-wing extremist and proud. Absolutely loving it. Wish more people could wake up and break free of Right-wing propaganda and optical illusions in critical support for the destruction of unjust hierarchies and predatory business practices.
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Free Algerstonia
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Postby Free Algerstonia » Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:26 pm

i watched rachel maddow once, but my neighbor heard the far-left propaganda and intervened by walking in in full camouflage with a hunting rifle and shot an entire magazine at my tv, i spent over a thousand dollars to replace my tv but it was all worth it because my neighbor saved me from me falling for socialist anti-american propaganda
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The Fanboyists
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Postby The Fanboyists » Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:30 pm

"Far left echo chamber". Lol. I see there's a new way to say "I've never been around any actual leftists". The only thing leftists hate more than fash trash is other leftists.

You can't be "seduced" by Marxist ideology. Ol' Karl wrote a dense-ass, math-heavy book about economics. It's like the least-sexy thing ever. You don't get "seduced" by leftist politics, the world burns you out and all the people with literally any power refuse to do anything that might make life more bearable for anyone else because it might cut into their profits a little, and you get angry.

There is a way to get people to renounce "left-wing extremism", though! It's called "addressing literally any of the problems that literally ruin people's lives that get leftists so angry." You know, making it so the economy serves the public and not the other way around, as it is now in the vast majority of the world.

Hope this helps!
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Diarcesia
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Postby Diarcesia » Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:31 pm

So it's the RWDT and the LWDT in a different coat, eh? Whatever the case, the horseshoe theory is a thing.

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Postby Undemocacy » Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:31 pm

Free Algerstonia wrote:i watched rachel maddow once, but my neighbor heard the far-left propaganda and intervened by walking in in full camouflage with a hunting rifle and shot an entire magazine at my tv, i spent over a thousand dollars to replace my tv but it was all worth it because my neighbor saved me from me falling for socialist anti-american propaganda


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Sordhau
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Postby Sordhau » Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:34 pm

Diarcesia wrote:So it's the RWDT and the LWDT in a different coat, eh? Whatever the case, the horseshoe theory is a thing.


The horseshoe theory is Liberals projecting their long history of collaboration with Fascists onto the Left. It's bunk.
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Diarcesia
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Postby Diarcesia » Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:35 pm

A common thread of extremism is to try to make everything... as in everything... about the ideology. The ideology is inflexible, sacrosanct, and one would prefer to be in denial of the facts on the ground than to admit the ideology is not perfect.

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The Proud Transphobe
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Postby The Proud Transphobe » Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:36 pm

Sordhau wrote:Left-wing extremist and proud. Absolutely loving it. Wish more people could wake up and break free of Right-wing propaganda and optical illusions in critical support for the destruction of unjust hierarchies and predatory business practices.

Well I can't fault you for being proud - I roll that way myself. What "unjust" hierarchies? This also suggests you think some hierarchies are justified - which ones? I wasn't aware leftists supported any kind of hierarchy.

Free Algerstonia wrote:i watched rachel maddow once, but my neighbor heard the far-left propaganda and intervened by walking in in full camouflage with a hunting rifle and shot an entire magazine at my tv, i spent over a thousand dollars to replace my tv but it was all worth it because my neighbor saved me from me falling for socialist anti-american propaganda

Neighbors in camo will get you every time. ;)
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:01 pm

Almost nobody I know who's close to me is left-wing, at least outwardly. On the balance, they are apparently centrist or lean a little right. Some lean strongly Democrat, but they are establishment at most, and there are multiple equally adamant Republicans.

I began as a fairly standard conservative due to influence from the latter as I began to first dip my toe into politics (gifting me books from conservative thinkers and such which I enjoyed reading), and then my beliefs gradually devolved into a weird mush that I shy away from trying to classify in terms of left/right, with this accelerating after 2020.
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American Rockies
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Postby American Rockies » Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:07 pm

LMAO someone denied the existence of a left-wing echochamber

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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:38 pm

Shit guys, he's talking about us! Quick, to the Left-mobile!

But you know, I'm in a playful mood. Let's take it semi-seriously.

The Proud Transphobe wrote:In regards to left-wing extremism and Marxist ideology,
  • Has anyone here escaped the far-left echo-chamber?
  • What did it take for you to get away from the collectivist cult?
  • Have any of your friends (or family) been seduced by Marxist ideology?
  • What can be done to help people renounce left-wing extremism?

(Yes, this is a direct challenge to this topic. Extremism exists on both sides, and we're going to talk about it, gosh darn it!)


1) The first rule of left wing politics is that all those other left wing bastards ruined left wing politics. It's less echo chamber as more continuous, ever shifting war zones only occasionally united in condemning a fascist (as long as they are a western fascist... don't get me started on those tankies).

2) Fortunately, I was never in a cult to begin with. Funnily enough, cults and the behaviours that lead to them are a great personal interest of mine, so I am curious- what would you define as a cult? What checklist are we using to decide whether someone is in a cult or not?

3) Plenty. Some of them even became tankies who praise Russia's invasion of Ukraine, smh. But it's less seduced, and more like finding answers to why your life (or the lives of others) are going awry. Trust me, there is nothing seductive about the 19th century dense math books that are the bedrock of leftie thought. Hell, even when it's updated, like with Piketty, it's still just math thrown at your face all day long.

4) Improving society. Good jobs, greater equality, more power to the working class and minorities, less war, less restriction on personal private life, stopping the apocalypse train called climate change. It's a funny thing, well documented at least in electoral politics, that left wing politics in a sense advocates for it's own abolition. Once problems are solved, who needs people advocating for fixing problems in society, eh?
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Postby Kubra » Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:36 am

Ok let's talk about those left wing extremists and their nefarious nefariousness
Remember that radical left mass shooting
Surely we had one, right?
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Postby El Lazaro » Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:36 am

Kubra wrote:Ok let's talk about those left wing extremists and their nefarious nefariousness
Remember that radical left mass shooting
Surely we had one, right?

Anarchist terrorism was pretty big in the old days. But currently, the left lacks a genuine political movement outside of self-aggrandizing autocannibalism. Terrorism doesn’t work if people aren’t afraid of it happening again.

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Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:46 am

The way to escape left wing echo chambers is to study a bit about ontology and epistemology and interrogate the foundations of leftist thought. You'll come to the conclusion most are of the 'realist' school which boils down to "If we think about a thing in such a way, it can help explain it, and if that explanation keeps being useful, then that's all that really matters", but routinely act and behave like positivists in regard to their explanations.

This is especially damning when you adopt a counter-lens also using a realist mindset to be like; "If we apply this lens, it comes up with wildly different conclusions" and watching them trip over themselves to scream and howl about it. The biggest example of this is feminism, which is epistemologically perhaps the most poorly founded ideology in the modern era, and ontologically often incoherent. You can charitable describe it as a realist mindset adopted by people who do not understand (or even want to understand) the limitations of realism and the strength of claims it can make.

I think if you pushed philosophy courses in schools specifically focused around ontology and epistemology you would dramatically change the left wing and how it operates. One big reason people "Live in different realities" is that the left has badly founded ontological and epistemological claims and doesn't understand the difference between a lens to evaluate problems, and a description of actual capital R Reality. This is due to a complete and total lack of awareness of ontology and epistemology within the mainstream left wing social movement.

I want to emphasize this for those of you on here. Feminist theory is as ontologically and epistemologically well founded as QAnon. So is the left wings thoughts on racism. "If we assume that the democrats are a satanic pedophile cult, what phenomanae would this explain?" and then circularly refering to "The things it has explained" as proof that the assumption must be true. That's feminism. That's CRT. That's the left. And it's because almost none of them have ever read a book about philosophy.

There is a general lack of scientific and academic literacy among the left wing such that they take realist academic concepts and ascribe to them positivist levels of objectivity and veracity. Once you realize that, you have already escaped the echo chamber.

There is no such thing as a feminist who isn't wildly ignorant (Willfully or otherwise) of basic entry level epistemology, except feminists currently working on feminist epistemology who have reached the conclusion "We have no actual basis for the shit we've been saying and continue to say, but are going to keep trying to find one.", of which there are perhaps 4 globally working on the problem and who can be taken mildly seriously because of the honesty and self-awareness with which they make their claims. (Helen Longino is probably the best at it. Harding gave her best, but ultimately her work is entirely tautologous. "Women are oppressed. We know women are oppressed because they have told us so. We know we should take their word over mens, because they are oppressed." Pinnick is also good, but they are more in the "We have no actual basis to be saying any of this shit and need to keep looking for one" wing.).

This problem extends to the racial ideology of the left as well. It is less present within their economic wing due to it being far more firmly established and having actual positivist influences and not seeking to avoid the problem of essentially contested concept by adopting a dogmatic approach to them. (For instance, if you ask a socialist "Is socialism the same thing as economic justice?" they may reply "I believe it is, yes". But they are not likely to believe others are poorly educated or incoherent if they say "Socialism is not economic justice.". They simply understand them to have different moral values. The best of them will also come to accept those values as coherent and valid, and then be more open about saying "I am a socialist because I view it as economic justice personally. I also have positivist evidence that it is in the best material interests of the working classes, and so would urge them to consider it as an approach.".

Much of my posting career has been adopting a realist counter lens with equal or stronger explanatory power (As in, it can explain more of society and doesn't have to ignore parts of it, moreover it challenges the explanatory power of the lens they currently use by undermining those explanations) in order to try and prompt some degree of self-awareness from the left. I have concluded that they are not even epistemological realists as a result of their reaction to this, as an epistemological realist would instead then become a mens rights activist in response, or at the very least abandon feminism. Instead, They're dogmatists. They believe what they are told to believe because they have been told they have to believe it in order to be good people, and they know the beliefs are good because good people believe in them, and you know they're good people because that's what their beliefs say a good person should believe. That is broadly my conclusion and it is not a flattering one, but I have laid out my reasoning for that conclusion openly and honestly.

If you're not able to discuss ontology, epistemology, realism and so on, I'm not actually all that interested in a response, because the thrust of this critique is that your inability to discuss and understand those things is the entire problem.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:23 am, edited 13 times in total.
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:12 am

Kubra wrote:Ok let's talk about those left wing extremists and their nefarious nefariousness
Remember that radical left mass shooting
Surely we had one, right?


The largest terrorist organization in the world is a communist one, operating in India.
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Postby Risottia » Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:52 am

The Proud Transphobe wrote:In regards to left-wing extremism and Marxist ideology,
  • Has anyone here escaped the far-left echo-chamber?

I have.
  • What did it take for you to get away from the collectivist cult?

  • I had to realise that the so-called far-left is just a bunch of deviationists who would be content with mere, bourgeois democratic socialism instead of continuing on the shining path leading progressive humanity to full-blown communism.
  • Have any of your friends (or family) been seduced by Marxist ideology?

  • In Soviet Risottia, you seduce Marxist ideology.

  • What can be done to help people renounce left-wing extremism?

  • Just quit exploiting people through surplus value.
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    Postby Risottia » Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:54 am

    The Fanboyists wrote: Ol' Karl wrote a dense-ass, math-heavy book about economics. It's like the least-sexy thing ever.

    My wife and I solve differential equation and path integrals in the late evening as a pastime.
    I'd say math-heavy books are sexy. My issue with Das Kapital would be that there isn't ENOUGH maths.
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    Postby Informed Consent » Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:58 am

    Diarcesia wrote:A common thread of extremism is to try to make everything... as in everything... about the ideology. The ideology is inflexible, sacrosanct, and one would prefer to be in denial of the facts on the ground than to admit the ideology is not perfect.

    It does not help that a proper definition of "extremism" is rarely employed, and everywhere around the world from Washington to Beijing, all you have to do to qualify as an enemy of the state is to simply not publicly support a particular party, policy, personality, what have you.

    Perpetually addressing alleged societal ills through the subjective lens of ideology is not beneficial either, and while many claim that their approach is scientific, math and justice are about operating both sides of an equation equally, and I do not see that in very many schools of thought today.
    You either live by a binary standard, or a double one.
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    Postby Vassenor » Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:08 am

    The Proud Transphobe wrote:In regards to left-wing extremism and Marxist ideology,
    • Has anyone here escaped the far-left echo-chamber?
    • What did it take for you to get away from the collectivist cult?
    • Have any of your friends (or family) been seduced by Marxist ideology?
    • What can be done to help people renounce left-wing extremism?

    (Yes, this is a direct challenge to this topic. Extremism exists on both sides, and we're going to talk about it, gosh darn it!)


    So what are you defining as "far left echo chamger" and "marxist ideology"?
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    Vikanias
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    Postby Vikanias » Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:19 am

    Left wing extremism and right wing extremism are the same thing really, people so disenfranchised with society that they resort to stupid solutions to rid the world of things they hate.

    And that they cannot admit their ideology is not perfect and it’s creators aren’t gods that should be celebrated because they came up with a thing.
    Last edited by Vikanias on Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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    Alle Deutschland
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    Postby Alle Deutschland » Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:21 am

    Vassenor wrote:
    The Proud Transphobe wrote:In regards to left-wing extremism and Marxist ideology,
    • Has anyone here escaped the far-left echo-chamber?
    • What did it take for you to get away from the collectivist cult?
    • Have any of your friends (or family) been seduced by Marxist ideology?
    • What can be done to help people renounce left-wing extremism?

    (Yes, this is a direct challenge to this topic. Extremism exists on both sides, and we're going to talk about it, gosh darn it!)


    So what are you defining as "far left echo chamger" and "marxist ideology"?


    Probably an echo chamber of far-left ideas and marxist ideology. Seems pretty straightforward to me. Here, we'll do an opposite-day kinda thing. Has anyone here escaped the far-right echo-chamber? And because Marxism is a variation of the broader umbrella of socialism, I'll throw in, "Have any of your friends (or family) been seduced by laissez-faire (capitalist) ideology? Many ideologies are capitalist and socialist in nature, so probably just the broader umbrella of Marxist-specific socialism, and the aversion to outside thought or opinion in reference to an "echo-chamber". Similar, but not the same, to the opposite post OP linked. Perhaps this helped, perhaps it did not.

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    Bewaffnete Krafte
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    Postby Bewaffnete Krafte » Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:35 am

    Marxist-Leninists call Social Democrats Bourgeoisie, Social Democrats call Marxist-Leninists Fascists, Marxist-Leninists call Trotskyists counterrevolutionary, etc.
    Leftism is inherently pro-change, which automatically means it can agree on less than those who think "we should keep it pretty much the same".
    Leftists will never agree with eachother because Leftism isn't a thing, like Rightism. It's like trying to make a Liberal work with a Fascist (Which, unlike what Sordhau seems to think, no, Liberals in real life would not work with fascists) they are very different ideologies. This means no such rabbit hole can exist, like in rightist ideologies.
    And, We shouldn't work with eachother because you can't compromise between revolution and reform, or between authoritarianism and... not. The only reason we even try at all (which we hardly do) is because we all roughly stemmed from the same guy, and we're all too new to be entrenched as our own real ideology groups.
    I would say leftism is split into three groups, those being Status Quo (Social Liberalism), Reform (Social Democracy), and Revolution (Marxism-Leninism) and none of those 3 (besides maybe Social Liberalism and Social Democracy) should (or do) work with the other two.
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    Postby Alle Deutschland » Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:57 am

    Bewaffnete Krafte wrote:Marxist-Leninists call Social Democrats Bourgeoisie, Social Democrats call Marxist-Leninists Fascists, Marxist-Leninists call Trotskyists counterrevolutionary, etc.
    Leftism is inherently pro-change, which automatically means it can agree on less than those who think "we should keep it pretty much the same".
    Leftists will never agree with eachother because Leftism isn't a thing, like Rightism. It's like trying to make a Liberal work with a Fascist (Which, unlike what Sordhau seems to think, no, Liberals in real life would not work with fascists) they are very different ideologies. This means no such rabbit hole can exist, like in rightist ideologies.
    And, We shouldn't work with eachother because you can't compromise between revolution and reform, or between authoritarianism and... not. The only reason we even try at all (which we hardly do) is because we all roughly stemmed from the same guy, and we're all too new to be entrenched as our own real ideology groups.
    I would say leftism is split into three groups, those being Status Quo (Social Liberalism), Reform (Social Democracy), and Revolution (Marxism-Leninism) and none of those 3 (besides maybe Social Liberalism and Social Democracy) should (or do) work with the other two.


    Well it doesn't much matter what they call each other, right? Just what they are. Leftists. "because Leftism isn't a thing, like Rightism."... "I would say leftism is split into three groups". Is this an attempt to split up an umbrella group, that according to you doesn't exist, or at least can't work cohesively (which is often true with extremist ideologies), or is it simply an attempt to break up what is "perceived as leftism" into "actual categories"? Just wondering.

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    Postby Hispida » Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:01 am

    "left-wing extremist" here and it's pretty fuckin cool
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