NATION

PASSWORD

Economic Ideology: Proportionalism

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Floofybit
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1224
Founded: Sep 11, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Economic Ideology: Proportionalism

Postby Floofybit » Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:46 am

I have attempted to make the perfect economic ideology so please give me your thoughts.

Capitalism and socialism both have their problems, capitalism having extremely rich people who make a disproportionately large amount of money for just being an owner of a successful company and socialism/communism for being too equal and rewarding the people who don't work hard with the same money as those who do. Proportionalism removes these by creating incomes proportional to their jobs. Important jobs make more money than less important jobs, and the pay for each of those jobs are similar depending on where you work and your ethnicity, sex, etc. You can raise and lower your income through a competitive pay with going up to 5-10% off the pay. If you would make more money that your maximum job pay, it is given back to the government, so there are no giant over-the-top companies, nor are there unsuccessful companies. Similarly, a free market isn't good as is proves for little regulation and a closed market leaves for no freedom of what business you work at or create; you can create businesses, but they must be approved by the government, and are supported by the government, so you can have your dream buisness, but you can run it safely and correctly. Finally, there are flat taxes so the tax is a fair percentage for everyone. And now you may be thinking, what about people with disabilities?! Well, as people have proportional incomes, leftover money and taxes are given to help people who are poor and with disabilities, along with the advancement and betterment of companies and life.

Thoughts on PROPORTIONALISM?
Fluff/Floof Pronouns ОшО
Falls Under The "Canine" Species
Avid Fruit Addict
Favourite Colour Is Tangerine (FF9966)
Favourite Animal Is West Highland Terrier
ЦшЦ
Foxlington News
Fruit addiction terrorises Floofybits, no known cure has been found | Man purchases too much tangerine juice and goes bankrupt but highballed people and is now a millionaire | Woman arrested for having "too many favourite colours" and will be released in 2034. | Peachton man identiies as a kumquat, watch his story
(My fruit addiction is almost definitely back)
Buy my chocolate here!
"Gotta be some Disneyland style utopia for either people and dogs or... anthropomorphic animals."

User avatar
Tinhampton
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11418
Founded: Oct 05, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Tinhampton » Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:49 am

The terms of many coronavirus lockdowns were criticised because they designated some businesses as "essential" while forcing others to close. Likewise: who determines what makes any job more or less important than any other job?
The Self-Administrative City of TINHAMPTON (pop. 319,372): Saffron Howard, Mayor (UCP); Alexander Smith, WA Delegate-Ambassador

Authorships & co-authorships: SC#250, SC#251, Issue #1115, SC#267, GA#484, GA#491, GA#533, GA#540, GA#549, SC#356, GA#559, GA#562, GA#567, GA#578, SC#374, GA#582, SC#375, GA#589, GA#590, SC#382, SC#385*, GA#597, GA#607, SC#415
Other achievements: Cup of Harmony 73 champions; Philosopher-Queen of Sophia; possibly very controversial; *author of the most popular WA resolution ever
Who am I, really? 47yo Tory woman w/Asperger's; Cambridge graduate; currently reading nothing much

User avatar
Untecna
Senator
 
Posts: 4214
Founded: Jun 02, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Untecna » Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:56 am

Concur with Tinhampton, and in addition:

and the pay for each of those jobs are similar depending on where you work and your ethnicity, sex, etc.


This quote makes me feel as if the result would end up continuing the disparity between incomes, regardless of what you would end up saying. You don't state how these incomes are regulated in proportions to one another so we must assume that the businesses have control over their pay.

What even designates an "important" job? Work helps society function, therefore it is important. What makes one job more important than another?
Californian

Dragon with internet access

Unironically still in NSG discussions, now turned to slight shitposting to make it fun for everyone else me and me only.

Heloin's perhaps unwanted accountant

Don't use my old posts to judge me, I was cringe af

Naan Violence, y'all.

Political Beliefs
TL;DR: I'm a democratic socialist. Surprise Surprise, I don't support genocide or violence.

Go 49rs

Untecna wrote:No, and you can talk to my dragon lawyers if you dragon want me to dragon shut up.

Hemakral wrote:damn bro that wall so thick kool-aid man couldn't bust through

[violet] wrote:Maybe we could power our new search engine from the sexual tension between you two.

Hispida wrote:"dude, you nuked us off the map"

"ok, well, you're the one who fucked with poland's tractor"

User avatar
Picairn
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7505
Founded: Feb 21, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Picairn » Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:06 am

What is this, watered down social democracy? I need you to define "important jobs" and unimportant ones please. "You can create business but they must be approved" already exists, it's called a business license. Flat taxes perpetuate inequality, taxing the poor at the same rates as the rich is very unfair.

Most important question of all, how do you create "proportional incomes" relative to the "importance" of a job, exactly?
Picairn's Ministry of Foreign Relations
Minister: Edward H. Cornell
WA Ambassador: John M. Terry (Active)
Factbook | Constitution | Newspaper
Albrenia wrote:With great power comes great mockability.

Proctopeo wrote:I'm completely right and you know it.

Moralityland wrote:big corporations allied with the communist elite
Social democrat, passionate political observer, and naval warfare enthusiast.
Listen here Jack, we're going to destroy malarkey.
♔ The Empire of Picairn ♔
-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-—————————-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-
We'll speak softly and carry a large Javelin.

User avatar
Radiatia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8376
Founded: Oct 25, 2011
Capitalizt

Postby Radiatia » Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:06 am

This basically sounds like economic fascism to me.

I don't mean that in a pejorative sense - I mean, quite literally, this sounds to me like the economic system espoused by the fascist movements of the 1920s in which they tried to create a third position between capitalism and socialism and created a kind of government corporatism that sounds remarkably like your plan.

My primary objection to your suggestion is that I don't trust the state to designate what is and isn't 'important', as history has exemplified that the state's objectives are not always benevolent. I'd prefer to retain the current, if flawed, system of having the market determine what is and isn't 'important' through supply and demand.

This system also wouldn't leave much room for innovation or entrepreneurship and therefore is likely to fall into the same holes that communism fell into - it seems to assume that we have reached the end of progress and history and does not factor in new technology, new modes of production or even the movement from industrial to post-industrial society.
Last edited by Radiatia on Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Wallowis
Diplomat
 
Posts: 797
Founded: Sep 09, 2021
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Wallowis » Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:10 am

Umm..flat tax? I don't think that'd work for what you want it to work for.
All NS stats except for population related stats canon. Nation does represent my real life views always.*
*not Welfare.
My Politics
Wallowis now the head of Cylis Treaty and Arbitration Organisation. ULIBOR disbanded by Wallowis. Wallowis passes act of permanent neutrality. Survey shows people disinterested in global politics. Wallowis on the fence over entry into World Assembly. Economy stagnating, economists warn.
Hispida wrote:english is a rather tough language. you can learn it through tough thorough thought, though.

User avatar
Floofybit
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1224
Founded: Sep 11, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Floofybit » Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:16 am

Wallowis wrote:Umm..flat tax? I don't think that'd work for what you want it to work for.

How come? If there is too much equality in income, the hard workers are not rewards, but people with easy, lazy jobs are. I feel like this could work because as there aren't really stocks as things are very regulated, people make money in proportion to how society needs them
Last edited by Floofybit on Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Fluff/Floof Pronouns ОшО
Falls Under The "Canine" Species
Avid Fruit Addict
Favourite Colour Is Tangerine (FF9966)
Favourite Animal Is West Highland Terrier
ЦшЦ
Foxlington News
Fruit addiction terrorises Floofybits, no known cure has been found | Man purchases too much tangerine juice and goes bankrupt but highballed people and is now a millionaire | Woman arrested for having "too many favourite colours" and will be released in 2034. | Peachton man identiies as a kumquat, watch his story
(My fruit addiction is almost definitely back)
Buy my chocolate here!
"Gotta be some Disneyland style utopia for either people and dogs or... anthropomorphic animals."

User avatar
Page
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16518
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Page » Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:22 am

If you were really ranking jobs in order of importance, then of everybody who works for McDonald's, the fry cooks would make the most while the CEO would make the least. The further up the chain of command you go, the less necessary you are.
I am an internationalist, geolibertarian anarcho-futurist with syncretic egoist and Marxist tendencies. I consider authoritarianism to be intrinsically and irrevocably evil regardless of the authoritarians' intentions or economic inclinations. I do not recognize any law, government, border, or claim to private property.

I don't believe in kink-shaming unless your kink is submitting to the state.

Protect yourself from Covid-19: Stop licking boots.

User avatar
Wallowis
Diplomat
 
Posts: 797
Founded: Sep 09, 2021
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Wallowis » Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:22 am

Floofybit wrote:
Wallowis wrote:Umm..flat tax? I don't think that'd work for what you want it to work for.

How come? If there is too much equality in income, the hard workers are not rewards, but people with easy, lazy jobs are. I feel like this could work because as there aren't really stocks as things are very regulated, people make money in proportion to how society needs them

See, you're trying to make this as a compromise between socialism and capitalism but the problem is you're already biased towards capitalism by using capitalist rhetoric.
All NS stats except for population related stats canon. Nation does represent my real life views always.*
*not Welfare.
My Politics
Wallowis now the head of Cylis Treaty and Arbitration Organisation. ULIBOR disbanded by Wallowis. Wallowis passes act of permanent neutrality. Survey shows people disinterested in global politics. Wallowis on the fence over entry into World Assembly. Economy stagnating, economists warn.
Hispida wrote:english is a rather tough language. you can learn it through tough thorough thought, though.

User avatar
Floofybit
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1224
Founded: Sep 11, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Floofybit » Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:24 am

Wallowis wrote:
Floofybit wrote:How come? If there is too much equality in income, the hard workers are not rewards, but people with easy, lazy jobs are. I feel like this could work because as there aren't really stocks as things are very regulated, people make money in proportion to how society needs them

See, you're trying to make this as a compromise between socialism and capitalism but the problem is you're already biased towards capitalism by using capitalist rhetoric.

Well, I don't really know how a varied tax would be better. People who are more get more welfare than the rich, so in a sense, they have a negative sort of tax
Fluff/Floof Pronouns ОшО
Falls Under The "Canine" Species
Avid Fruit Addict
Favourite Colour Is Tangerine (FF9966)
Favourite Animal Is West Highland Terrier
ЦшЦ
Foxlington News
Fruit addiction terrorises Floofybits, no known cure has been found | Man purchases too much tangerine juice and goes bankrupt but highballed people and is now a millionaire | Woman arrested for having "too many favourite colours" and will be released in 2034. | Peachton man identiies as a kumquat, watch his story
(My fruit addiction is almost definitely back)
Buy my chocolate here!
"Gotta be some Disneyland style utopia for either people and dogs or... anthropomorphic animals."

User avatar
Floofybit
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1224
Founded: Sep 11, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Floofybit » Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:39 am

Tinhampton wrote:The terms of many coronavirus lockdowns were criticised because they designated some businesses as "essential" while forcing others to close. Likewise: who determines what makes any job more or less important than any other job?

The people do. The income rolls around through supply and demand, so if people don't want a product, people don't get paid as much. Similarly, life saving operators are essential and get paid more, along with other essentials

Luxury companies aren't as rewarder because they aren't as essential as getting everyone proper clothes
Last edited by Floofybit on Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Fluff/Floof Pronouns ОшО
Falls Under The "Canine" Species
Avid Fruit Addict
Favourite Colour Is Tangerine (FF9966)
Favourite Animal Is West Highland Terrier
ЦшЦ
Foxlington News
Fruit addiction terrorises Floofybits, no known cure has been found | Man purchases too much tangerine juice and goes bankrupt but highballed people and is now a millionaire | Woman arrested for having "too many favourite colours" and will be released in 2034. | Peachton man identiies as a kumquat, watch his story
(My fruit addiction is almost definitely back)
Buy my chocolate here!
"Gotta be some Disneyland style utopia for either people and dogs or... anthropomorphic animals."

User avatar
Picairn
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7505
Founded: Feb 21, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Picairn » Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:45 am

Floofybit wrote:The people do. The income rolls around through supply and demand, so if people don't want a product, people don't get paid as much. Similarly, life saving operators are essential and get paid more, along with other essentials

Luxury companies aren't as rewarder because they aren't as essential as getting everyone proper clothes

Celebrities and sports players are getting paid in the millions despite them not being as *relatively* essential as workers and farmers, for instance. How do you address that?
Picairn's Ministry of Foreign Relations
Minister: Edward H. Cornell
WA Ambassador: John M. Terry (Active)
Factbook | Constitution | Newspaper
Albrenia wrote:With great power comes great mockability.

Proctopeo wrote:I'm completely right and you know it.

Moralityland wrote:big corporations allied with the communist elite
Social democrat, passionate political observer, and naval warfare enthusiast.
Listen here Jack, we're going to destroy malarkey.
♔ The Empire of Picairn ♔
-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-—————————-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-
We'll speak softly and carry a large Javelin.

User avatar
Floofybit
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1224
Founded: Sep 11, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Floofybit » Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:48 am

Page wrote:If you were really ranking jobs in order of importance, then of everybody who works for McDonald's, the fry cooks would make the most while the CEO would make the least. The further up the chain of command you go, the less necessary you are.

Well, I think there would be different positions. Mostly workers and managers. I think managers would likely be paid more because they run the company and report to the government what they need and proposed advancements in the workplace.
Fluff/Floof Pronouns ОшО
Falls Under The "Canine" Species
Avid Fruit Addict
Favourite Colour Is Tangerine (FF9966)
Favourite Animal Is West Highland Terrier
ЦшЦ
Foxlington News
Fruit addiction terrorises Floofybits, no known cure has been found | Man purchases too much tangerine juice and goes bankrupt but highballed people and is now a millionaire | Woman arrested for having "too many favourite colours" and will be released in 2034. | Peachton man identiies as a kumquat, watch his story
(My fruit addiction is almost definitely back)
Buy my chocolate here!
"Gotta be some Disneyland style utopia for either people and dogs or... anthropomorphic animals."

User avatar
Floofybit
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1224
Founded: Sep 11, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Floofybit » Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:50 am

Picairn wrote:
Floofybit wrote:The people do. The income rolls around through supply and demand, so if people don't want a product, people don't get paid as much. Similarly, life saving operators are essential and get paid more, along with other essentials

Luxury companies aren't as rewarder because they aren't as essential as getting everyone proper clothes

Celebrities and sports players are getting paid in the millions despite them not being as *relatively* essential as workers and farmers, for instance. How do you address that?


Unless celebrities have a real job, they won't make much. Sports and celebrities aren't very important, so they would make significantly less, but as they are popular, that could be a boost to their business if they have a real business
Fluff/Floof Pronouns ОшО
Falls Under The "Canine" Species
Avid Fruit Addict
Favourite Colour Is Tangerine (FF9966)
Favourite Animal Is West Highland Terrier
ЦшЦ
Foxlington News
Fruit addiction terrorises Floofybits, no known cure has been found | Man purchases too much tangerine juice and goes bankrupt but highballed people and is now a millionaire | Woman arrested for having "too many favourite colours" and will be released in 2034. | Peachton man identiies as a kumquat, watch his story
(My fruit addiction is almost definitely back)
Buy my chocolate here!
"Gotta be some Disneyland style utopia for either people and dogs or... anthropomorphic animals."

User avatar
El Lazaro
Minister
 
Posts: 2237
Founded: Oct 19, 2021
Left-wing Utopia

Postby El Lazaro » Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:09 am

Wait until you find out about this guy called Lenin who came up with the same idea 100 years ago.

User avatar
Informed Consent
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 427
Founded: Apr 13, 2022
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Informed Consent » Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:53 am

I am just going to cut to the chase.

Socioeconomic justice in its simplest form is "I catch the fish, I eat the fish", quickly amended by "What I do with a second fish is my prerogative".
The further away you get from that, the longer you refuse to accept that all of us being born without choice in circumstance is what makes us all equal to start, and the less say you have in determining your own market value, the more dysfunctional things get.

Have crony capitalists and socialist pretenders not made it clear yet?
Well the new century is about to hammer home how squeezing out free association and dynamic organization out of your socioeconomic paradigm, or not putting it there in the first place, will only lead you into tyranny and deprivation, whatever your ideological pretensions.
Last edited by Informed Consent on Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
"When men choose not to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing.
They then become capable of believing in anything."

- Emile Cammaerts

User avatar
Kalivyah
Diplomat
 
Posts: 623
Founded: Aug 30, 2022
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kalivyah » Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:54 am

Floofybit wrote:I have attempted to make the perfect economic ideology so please give me your thoughts.

Capitalism and socialism both have their problems, capitalism having extremely rich people who make a disproportionately large amount of money for just being an owner of a successful company and socialism/communism for being too equal and rewarding the people who don't work hard with the same money as those who do. Proportionalism removes these by creating incomes proportional to their jobs. Important jobs make more money than less important jobs, and the pay for each of those jobs are similar depending on where you work and your ethnicity, sex, etc. You can raise and lower your income through a competitive pay with going up to 5-10% off the pay. If you would make more money that your maximum job pay, it is given back to the government, so there are no giant over-the-top companies, nor are there unsuccessful companies. Similarly, a free market isn't good as is proves for little regulation and a closed market leaves for no freedom of what business you work at or create; you can create businesses, but they must be approved by the government, and are supported by the government, so you can have your dream buisness, but you can run it safely and correctly. Finally, there are flat taxes so the tax is a fair percentage for everyone. And now you may be thinking, what about people with disabilities?! Well, as people have proportional incomes, leftover money and taxes are given to help people who are poor and with disabilities, along with the advancement and betterment of companies and life.

Thoughts on PROPORTIONALISM?

- communism is when everyone makes the same amount of money

Instantaneously rejected.
Kali
" A goddess in Hinduism, one of the most significant figures within that religion, who destroys evil forces and bestows liberation."
she/they/him

Extremely queer. Also probably mentally deranged
☭ Marxist-Leninist
Part of the Glorious 50 Cent Army!

User avatar
Informed Consent
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 427
Founded: Apr 13, 2022
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Informed Consent » Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:56 am

Kalivyah wrote:- communism is when everyone makes the same amount of money
Instantaneously rejected.

For obvious reasons.
"When men choose not to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing.
They then become capable of believing in anything."

- Emile Cammaerts

User avatar
Ethel mermania
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 124630
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:01 am

Not interested in some failed sociology major determining how important my job is and what I get paid.

So no thank you.
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

http://www.salientpartners.com/epsilont ... ilizations

User avatar
El Lazaro
Minister
 
Posts: 2237
Founded: Oct 19, 2021
Left-wing Utopia

Postby El Lazaro » Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:30 am

Ethel mermania wrote:Not interested in some failed sociology major determining how important my job is and what I get paid.

So no thank you.

If you don’t want to starve, just become a Party bureaucrat. People need to stop having such a victim mentality and proactively screw other people over instead.

User avatar
Ethel mermania
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 124630
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:32 am

El Lazaro wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:Not interested in some failed sociology major determining how important my job is and what I get paid.

So no thank you.

If you don’t want to starve, just become a Party bureaucrat. People need to stop having such a victim mentality and proactively screw other people over instead.


True, but I like doing productive work.
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

http://www.salientpartners.com/epsilont ... ilizations


Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Cannot think of a name, Eahland, Elejamie, Fahran, Gun Manufacturers, Maladh, Montandi-Cisalpina, Necroghastia, New-Minneapolis, Port Caverton, Saiwania, The Jamesian Republic, Tidelia, Umeria

Advertisement

Remove ads