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The NationStates Feminism Thread V

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
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Farnhamia
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Founded: Jun 20, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

The NationStates Feminism Thread V

Postby Farnhamia » Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:30 pm

Image



Further Reading
Image
...

What is Feminism?
Feminist theory
Feminist philosophy
~
History of Feminism
History of Feminism
"History of Feminism"
The Cynical Historian

~
Types of Feminism
~
Books
Books and texts that explore varying
perspective on both men and women's issues.
By no means a complete list, but a good place
to start.

"The Big Book of Feminism: Big Ideas Simply Explained"
~
"A Vindication of the Rights of Woman" Mary Wollstonecraft
~
"The Second Sex" Simone de Beauvoir
~
"The Feminine Mystique" Betty Friedan
~
"Sexual Politics" Kate Millett
~
"Are Women Human? Astute and Witty Essays on the Role of
Women in Society" Dorothy L. Sayers
~
"The Purity Myth: How America's Obsession with Virginity is Hurting Young
Women" Jessica Valenti
~
"The Myth of Male Power" Warren Farrell
~
"Sex, Power, and Partisanship: How Evolutionary Science Makes
Sense of Our Political Divide" Dr. Hector A. Garcia
~
"The Myth of Mars and Venus: Do Men and Women Really Speak Different
Languages?" Deborah Cameron
~
"Reviving Ophelia: Saving the Selves of Adolescent Girls" Dr. Mary Phipher
~
"Sacred Cows: Is Feminism Relevant To The New Millennium?" Rosalind Coward
~
"The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory" Cynthia Eller
~
"Gentlemen and Amazons" Cynthia Eller (sequel to above)
~
"Rage Becomes Her: The Power of Women's Anger" Soraya Chemaly
~
"Women v. Religion: The Case Against Faith—and for Freedom" Karen Garst
~
"Lean In: Women, Work, and the Will to Lead" Sheryl Sandberg
~
"Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office" Lois P. Frankel
~
"Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and
Controlling Men" Lundy Bancroft
~
"Abused Men: The Hidden Side of Domestic Violence" Philip W. Cook
~
"Woman-to-Woman Sexual Violence: Does She Call It Rape?" Lori B. Girshick
~
"The Vagina Bible: The Vulva and the Vagina—Separating
the Myth from the Medicine" Dr. Jennifer Gunter

Old threads:
The NationStates Feminist Thread
The NationStates Feminist Thread II
The NationStates Feminist Thread III
The NS Mens Rights Thread


Sidebar is a work in progress.
Suggestions for resources welcome.

Hi there, everybody!

Welcome to the fifth iteration of the NationStates feminism megathread.


Here is where you will find all manner of topics relating to feminism and the issues it concerns itself with.

Discussion of men's rights is also welcome. There used to be a thread specifically for men's rights, but it was rarely used as most relevant talks took place in the feminism thread. So please, feel free to bring those conversations here too — apologies if this is not ideal for some.

This thread is always a work in progress to provide the best resources for those interested in gender rights of all sorts. Please, feel free to suggest books, websites, articles, and documentaries that you feel give insight to be linked and organized in the OP.


What is Feminism?

Image
Defining feminism has always been a tricky topic. While the concept of women's rights has been around since the beginning of human history (if not always reaching the heights we'd prefer today), the term "feminism" itself is relatively new, and there is some debate as to where women's rights in general and feminism proper meet.

From Wikipedia:

    "Charles Fourier, a utopian socialist and French philosopher, is credited with having coined the word "féminisme" in 1837. The words "féminisme" ("feminism") and "féministe" ("feminist") first appeared in France and the Netherlands in 1872, Great Britain in the 1890s, and the United States in 1910. The Oxford English Dictionary lists 1852 as the year of the first appearance of "feminist" and 1895 for "feminism". Depending on the historical moment, culture and country, feminists around the world have had different causes and goals. Most western feminist historians contend that all movements working to obtain women's rights should be considered feminist movements, even when they did not (or do not) apply the term to themselves. Other historians assert that the term should be limited to the modern feminist movement and its descendants. Those historians use the label "protofeminist" to describe earlier movements."
Many people are fond of the tongue-in-cheek definition that feminism is "the radical notion that women are people," but more seriously, feminism is traditionally defined as the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men. While this might seem straight forward at first, debate flares among the feminist community about exactly what it means to be "equal," how that is achieved, where gender-based oppression comes from, and who should be responsible for what in the cause. Such debate topics can include:

  • Does equality mean that men and women will usually wind up doing the same things, or does it mean that they will do different things but that those things will be equally valued?
  • What sorts of roles, activities, and expectations empower women, and which hold them back?
  • Can certain enterprises like religion, atheism, capitalism, socialism, technology, ecology, conservatism, liberalism, etc. aid in women's rights, or are they part of the problem?
  • How much should feminism combine with other forms of advocacy, such as the LGBT+ movement or racial equality?
  • Are men oppressed alongside women, or are men the oppressors of women?
  • Should feminism encompass men's issues too, or should it focus on women while men have their own branch of gender equality advocacy? Do men even need advocacy at all?
Many people throughout the history of feminism and women's rights circles have had different answers to these questions. Often the first thing that a young feminist will be surprised by when getting into discourse is how her/his/their own answers are not considered as "obvious" as they initially believed. History, sociology, psychology, economics, and philosophy all provide avenues to addressing them, and this thread serves as a center to do so.

Feminism has many subsets, a few of which are listed in the sidebar under "Types of Feminism."

Who is a feminist?

Whoever says they are.

There's a lot of grandstanding in the conversation about feminism, a lot of declarations about who is and is not "really" a feminist based largely on self-proclaimed authority. You're not a real feminist if you think this, you're not a real feminist if you don't think that, men can't be feminists just feminist allies, feminist is a title that has to be earned, etc., etc., etc.

While that debate is welcome here (within reason), the fact is that there is no Queen of Feminism or Feminist Police or Official Feminist Bible who has the power to decide those things once and for all. Despite what (self-admittedly) many feminists like to imagine, feminism has been diverse and complicated from the start, there was never this mythic time where those involved in it were all in agreement about what it meant to be a feminist and who qualified as such. Even the suffragettes had strong disagreements with each other about women's role in society and the best angle for achieving suffrage — Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton famously conflicted with Victoria Woodhull. Feminism is just a branch of philosophy like any other, it is free to be interpreted and transformed to evolving values, needs, factors, and agendas. As ever, No True Scotsman (Scotswoman?) looms in judgment of those who think that they hold the invisible guidebook for determining True Feministhood™.

Quotes to set the tone...
Image


    I have encountered riotous mobs and have been hung in effigy, but my motto is: Men's rights are nothing more. Women's rights are nothing less.
— Susan B. Anthony

    I do not wish them [women] to have power over men; but over themselves.
— Mary Wollstonecraft

    Misogyny or misandry is not a status or a belief; it is just a sickness.
― M.F. Moonzajer

    In reaction against the age-old slogan, "woman is the weaker vessel," or the still more offensive, "woman is a divine creature," we have, I think, allowed ourselves to drift into asserting that "a woman is as good as a man," without always pausing to think what exactly we mean by that. What, I feel, we ought to mean is something so obvious that it is apt to escape attention altogether, (...) that a woman is just as much an ordinary human being as a man, with the same individual preferences, and with just as much right to the tastes and preferences of an individual. What is repugnant to every human being is to be reckoned always as a member of a class and not as an individual person.
— Dorothy L. Sayers

    All this pitting of sex against sex, of quality against quality; all this claiming of superiority and imputing of inferiority, belong to the private-school stage of human existence where there are 'sides,' and it is necessary for one side to beat another side, and of the utmost importance to walk up to a platform and receive from the hands of the Headmaster himself a highly ornamental pot.
— Virginia Woolf

    Anything may happen when womanhood has ceased to be a protected occupation.
— Virginia Woolf

    If particular care and attention is not paid to the ladies, we are determined to foment a rebellion, and will not hold ourselves bound by any laws in which we have no voice or representation.
— Abigail Adams

    The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
— Martin Luther King Jr

    I am a men's liberationist (or "masculist") when men's liberation is defined as equal opportunity and equal responsibility for both sexes. I am a feminist when feminism favors equal opportunities and responsibilities for both sexes. I oppose both movements when either says our sex is THE oppressed sex, therefore, "we deserve rights." That's not gender liberation but gender entitlement. Ultimately, I am in favor of neither a women's movement nor a men's movement but a gender transition movement.
— Warren Farrell

    I shall not change my course because those who assume to be better than I desire it.
— Victoria Woodhull

    Men are from Earth, women are from Earth. Deal with it.
— George Carlin

Women's Resources


International Women's Day is March 8th! Save the date!

Women's Rights Agencies, Groups and Organizations

Women's Health, Victim Assistance, Support

Blogs

Journals and Books

Men's Resources


International Men's Day is November 19th! Save the date!

Important note: "A Voice For Men" is an illegal link on NationStates due to their involvement in doxxing. Do not link anything from them on this thread or anywhere else.

Men's Rights Organizations, Agencies, Misc

Support and discussion (pro-man without being anti-woman):

Men's Health, Victim Assistance, Suicide Prevention

Parenting Support

Because men's rights isn't as popular as women's rights, unfortunately, many people aren't sure where to begin when researching the topic. The original Men's Rights thread provided these links:




If you're new here, before you post...
Image


Since this seems to be one of the first places that people new to the site like to visit (likely because of how common strong opinions about feminism are across the rest of the internet), I feel the need to go into a bit more detail about what is expected here that veteran players shouldn't need to be told. If you are new, please make sure that you have read The One Stop Rules Shop before posting on the forums.

"A feminism thread? My time to shine! Feminism is cancer! Come at me, SJWs!"

No.

If I had a nickel for every person who walked into this thread expecting to be the first person here to stand in opposition to a den of rabid "SJW" stereotypes, I'd have a fortune to rival that of the nickels obtained from people complaining about the swastika flag restrictions. It's neither clever nor unique. You are not the first person here to be critical of feminism, you will not be the last, you will almost certainly not be the most memorable.

Also, keep in mind that calling anyone "cancer" or other such colorful memetics (ex, "get back in the kitchen lol!" trolling) will get you disciplined by the Moderators (free speech doesn't exist on this website — yes, we know it's tyrannical, no, we don't care) — this isn't Reddit or the YouTube comment section. Go back to there if you want virtual high-fives for unimaginative "pwning." While on NationStates, you abide by our rules.

And try actually listening to people you disagree with, for once. You might learn something.

"Why are non-feminists allowed here? This is supposed to be a thread for promoting feminism!"

This is a thread for topics about feminism, not solely for feminists. Said topics will include those that are critical of feminism. Obviously feminists are more than welcome here, but this is not an exclusive circle for them. This is a debate thread, not a sanctuary. Keep in mind that not everyone who brands themselves as "anti-feminist" intends that label to mean an opposition to gender equality itself, but rather what they see as the poor handling of gender equality by the individuals who label themselves as the feminist movement. You are free to disagree with that position, but understand that it is a position that people take, and try to keep it in mind in order to debate in good faith.

Similarly to the above warning, just like this is not Reddit or the YouTube comments section, this is not Tumblr, BuzzFeed, or Jezebel either. On this website we are interested in debate and conversation, not in "gotcha!" zingers designed to snappily put critics of feminism in their place while the rest of us go, "You tell 'em, girl!" You're not going to be the next big "best, response, EVER!!" screenshot that gets shared around social justice media, and the whole super sassy, "proud bitch," yawning-and-waving-hand-dismissively-at-the-manbabies routine was already old by thread one — not even the other feminists are impressed by it, and absolutely no one is flustered by it.

You are also not held to any different standard than your opponents. "But I was saying it to a misogynist/alt-right/Nazi/bad guy! Saying bad things to them is a good thing! Come on, this is [current year] for crying out loud!" is not an acceptable excuse for breaking the rules. "Ironic" misandry such as "kill all men" is definitely not welcome. Several a social justice-oriented newbie has been banned in the past for mistakenly thinking that that sort of logic would hold here. There is no "punching up" exception on NationStates — keep your hands to yourself, period.

And try actually listening to people you disagree with, for once. You might learn something.


Thanks to Swith Witherward for running the last three threads, and doing most of the work of compiling these links. Also thanks to Hirota for the original Men's Rights thread and its links, as well as anyone else who as contributed to the gathering and organization of this OP.
Note to OP: Headliner font permalink.
Last edited by Giovenith on Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
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Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
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Torrocca
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:32 pm

Huzzah to the fourth fifth iteration of the NSFT!

I know it's a copy-paste to be edited, please don't kill me :c
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New Eestiball
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Founded: Jan 06, 2021
New York Times Democracy

Postby New Eestiball » Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:34 pm

First person to say first gets deaded!
That being said, first.
F7 is a forum for fun, not for rants about people not effortposting.

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Forsher
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Founded: Jan 30, 2012
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Forsher » Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:29 pm

There was literally a poll in the previous thread saying not to continue this thread.

Aside from anything else, there is not enough activity in this forum any more to justify hoarding posts in a thread that routinely goes months without posts.

What the actual fuck.
That it Could be What it Is, Is What it Is

Stop making shit up, though. Links, or it's a God-damn lie and you know it.

The normie life is heteronormie

We won't know until 2053 when it'll be really obvious what he should've done. [...] We have no option but to guess.

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Stellar Colonies
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Posts: 3912
Founded: Mar 27, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Stellar Colonies » Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:39 pm

Forsher wrote:There was literally a poll in the previous thread saying not to continue this thread.

Aside from anything else, there is not enough activity in this forum any more to justify hoarding posts in a thread that routinely goes months without posts.

What the actual fuck.

"Continue" got more electoral votes than "Retire"!
Native of The East Pacific and Northern California
Opinions and Puppets
If you want a mental image of me: straight(?) white male.

I try to be objective, but I do have some biases.

I don't think the political compass is
fully accurate, but here are my results:

X-Axis: -5.38
Y-Axis: -2.62

Also, I'm diagnosed with ASD.
Stellar Colonies is a loose confederacy comprised from most of the human-settled parts of the galaxy.

Ida Station is the only Confederate member state permitted to join the WA.

Add 1200 years for the date I use.

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Farnhamia
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Posts: 110835
Founded: Jun 20, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Farnhamia » Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:42 pm

Forsher wrote:There was literally a poll in the previous thread saying not to continue this thread.

Aside from anything else, there is not enough activity in this forum any more to justify hoarding posts in a thread that routinely goes months without posts.

What the actual fuck.

I'm waiting for Gio to revise the OP.
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo ... Ashmoria (Freedom ... or cake)
This is the eighth line. If your signature is longer, it's too long.

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Saiwania
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Posts: 21583
Founded: Jun 30, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Saiwania » Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:58 pm

Forsher wrote:There was literally a poll in the previous thread saying not to continue this thread.
Aside from anything else, there is not enough activity in this forum any more to justify hoarding posts in a thread that routinely goes months without posts.
What the actual fuck.


It has only been 1 day since this continuation has started, and who cares about some poll if this topic will inevitably eventually be discussed here again, if the outside world still has controversies happening like #MeToo related to Feminism in general? The latest kerfuffle is about some of Manosphere in the form of Andrew Tate, really bringing the hatred against women to the fore.

This previous thread had a whole page and a half discussion happen today before it got locked. At a similar rate off and on, a new thread should reach 500 pages in 1 or 2 years from right now.
All life is a battle, even to the last breath.
Showing mercy to an enemy creates a spiral of destruction.
Sacrificing your strength is the path of a fool.

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Forsher
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Forsher » Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:26 pm

Saiwania wrote:This previous thread had a whole page and a half discussion happen today before it got locked. At a similar rate off and on, a new thread should reach 500 pages in 1 or 2 years from right now.


This thread hides issues in darkness.

Take your Andrew Tate example. 36 pages of discussion. Nearly a month of constant usage. When was the last time the Feminism Megathread got close to that kind of activity? NEVER. There's a reason this thread dies all the time... basically eight people post in it and two of them are very casual about it.

End the clubhoue system, get rid of the unwanted and un-useful megathread. Let the posts float. If, by some miracle, there's a sudden advent of feminism related threads that choke up the forum, maybe create a temporary megathread to deal with the clutter but (a) the forum needs more activity and (b) that's like a very low probability outcome.
That it Could be What it Is, Is What it Is

Stop making shit up, though. Links, or it's a God-damn lie and you know it.

The normie life is heteronormie

We won't know until 2053 when it'll be really obvious what he should've done. [...] We have no option but to guess.

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Galloism
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Posts: 71798
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:03 am

Forsher wrote:
Saiwania wrote:This previous thread had a whole page and a half discussion happen today before it got locked. At a similar rate off and on, a new thread should reach 500 pages in 1 or 2 years from right now.


This thread hides issues in darkness.

Take your Andrew Tate example. 36 pages of discussion. Nearly a month of constant usage. When was the last time the Feminism Megathread got close to that kind of activity? NEVER. There's a reason this thread dies all the time... basically eight people post in it and two of them are very casual about it.

End the clubhoue system, get rid of the unwanted and un-useful megathread. Let the posts float. If, by some miracle, there's a sudden advent of feminism related threads that choke up the forum, maybe create a temporary megathread to deal with the clutter but (a) the forum needs more activity and (b) that's like a very low probability outcome.

To be fair I only post in this thread if someone says my name three times into a mirror.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
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Ostroeuropa
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Fri Sep 23, 2022 4:20 am

"All citizens have a duty to hold their government to account."

"So we're banning Russian men from asylum."

Big Think.

https://twitter.com/biz_ukraine_mag/sta ... hldtQYFJlw


What's likelier here;

The female and feminist Estonian PM thinks women aren't citizens or doesn't view them as citizens, or she has some kind of worldview that prevents her from noticing women also have responsibilities that failing to meet should result in consequences? That of the belief women are citizens only when this is beneficial to women?
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Fri Sep 23, 2022 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
The feminism that only exists in feminists heads is real, and the feminism that impacts society isn't real.

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Stellar Colonies
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Posts: 3912
Founded: Mar 27, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Stellar Colonies » Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:22 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:"All citizens have a duty to hold their government to account."

"So we're banning Russian men from asylum."

Big Think.

https://twitter.com/biz_ukraine_mag/sta ... hldtQYFJlw


What's likelier here;

The female and feminist Estonian PM thinks women aren't citizens or doesn't view them as citizens, or she has some kind of worldview that prevents her from noticing women also have responsibilities that failing to meet should result in consequences? That of the belief women are citizens only when this is beneficial to women?

Considering that only men are subject to conscription in Russia, and those participating in anti-war protests are faced with being conscripted (such a smart policy there), it made me wonder if we'd see the development of female-led anti-war protests deliberately flouting that.

I guess we probably won't if they're able to leave while the men are trapped between the rock of the Ukrainian meatgrinder or the hard place of imprisonment for desertion or protests.
Native of The East Pacific and Northern California
Opinions and Puppets
If you want a mental image of me: straight(?) white male.

I try to be objective, but I do have some biases.

I don't think the political compass is
fully accurate, but here are my results:

X-Axis: -5.38
Y-Axis: -2.62

Also, I'm diagnosed with ASD.
Stellar Colonies is a loose confederacy comprised from most of the human-settled parts of the galaxy.

Ida Station is the only Confederate member state permitted to join the WA.

Add 1200 years for the date I use.

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El Lazaro
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1395
Founded: Oct 19, 2021
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby El Lazaro » Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:35 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:"All citizens have a duty to hold their government to account."

"So we're banning Russian men from asylum."

Big Think.

https://twitter.com/biz_ukraine_mag/sta ... hldtQYFJlw


What's likelier here;

The female and feminist Estonian PM thinks women aren't citizens or doesn't view them as citizens, or she has some kind of worldview that prevents her from noticing women also have responsibilities that failing to meet should result in consequences? That of the belief women are citizens only when this is beneficial to women?

“Woman bad” is not the only lens that should the world should be viewed from. The argument is quite obviously that Russian dissenters should stay in Russia to fight the government, and banning people eligible for conscription is going to trap a new wave of dissenters inside Russia.

This is, of course, horrifically stupid. Denying Russia new recruits would be more effective, and it is silly to expect political minorities to overthrow authoritarian governments without outside help. But it’s a product of misplaced anger towards Russian citizens who didn’t want this war, not a male genocide.

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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57258
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:00 pm

El Lazaro wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:"All citizens have a duty to hold their government to account."

"So we're banning Russian men from asylum."

Big Think.

https://twitter.com/biz_ukraine_mag/sta ... hldtQYFJlw


What's likelier here;

The female and feminist Estonian PM thinks women aren't citizens or doesn't view them as citizens, or she has some kind of worldview that prevents her from noticing women also have responsibilities that failing to meet should result in consequences? That of the belief women are citizens only when this is beneficial to women?

“Woman bad” is not the only lens that should the world should be viewed from. The argument is quite obviously that Russian dissenters should stay in Russia to fight the government, and banning people eligible for conscription is going to trap a new wave of dissenters inside Russia.

This is, of course, horrifically stupid. Denying Russia new recruits would be more effective, and it is silly to expect political minorities to overthrow authoritarian governments without outside help. But it’s a product of misplaced anger towards Russian citizens who didn’t want this war, not a male genocide.


If it's anger towards Russian citizens, why specifically target men?
The feminism that only exists in feminists heads is real, and the feminism that impacts society isn't real.

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El Lazaro
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1395
Founded: Oct 19, 2021
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby El Lazaro » Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:11 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
El Lazaro wrote:“Woman bad” is not the only lens that should the world should be viewed from. The argument is quite obviously that Russian dissenters should stay in Russia to fight the government, and banning people eligible for conscription is going to trap a new wave of dissenters inside Russia.

This is, of course, horrifically stupid. Denying Russia new recruits would be more effective, and it is silly to expect political minorities to overthrow authoritarian governments without outside help. But it’s a product of misplaced anger towards Russian citizens who didn’t want this war, not a male genocide.


If it's anger towards Russian citizens, why specifically target men?

Russia is only conscripting men. The Kremlin isn’t exactly peak woke feminazism.

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Ostroeuropa
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Posts: 57258
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:31 pm

El Lazaro wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
If it's anger towards Russian citizens, why specifically target men?

Russia is only conscripting men. The Kremlin isn’t exactly peak woke feminazism.


Why would "It's every citizens job to resist the regime" be related to who Russia is conscripting? And well done yes, you've noted how both a traditionalist regime like Russia and a feminist regime like Estonia both have the same view of men and their role in society.

You're attempting to "Explain" the logic of the action despite that being the very logic i'm criticizing as fundamentally sexist. Estonia allows women into the armed forces. They believe women are capable of armed combat... right up until it would be inconvenient for women for that to be the position of the government. Then, suddenly, only men are capable of armed resistance and it's their duty to resist Russia.

But phrase it as "Every citizens duty" and hope nobody notices I guess.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The feminism that only exists in feminists heads is real, and the feminism that impacts society isn't real.

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Galloism
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Posts: 71798
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:03 pm

El Lazaro wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:"All citizens have a duty to hold their government to account."

"So we're banning Russian men from asylum."

Big Think.

https://twitter.com/biz_ukraine_mag/sta ... hldtQYFJlw


What's likelier here;

The female and feminist Estonian PM thinks women aren't citizens or doesn't view them as citizens, or she has some kind of worldview that prevents her from noticing women also have responsibilities that failing to meet should result in consequences? That of the belief women are citizens only when this is beneficial to women?

“Woman bad” is not the only lens that should the world should be viewed from. The argument is quite obviously that Russian dissenters should stay in Russia to fight the government, and banning people eligible for conscription is going to trap a new wave of dissenters inside Russia.

This is, of course, horrifically stupid. Denying Russia new recruits would be more effective, and it is silly to expect political minorities to overthrow authoritarian governments without outside help. But it’s a product of misplaced anger towards Russian citizens who didn’t want this war, not a male genocide.

My hypothesis of the actor/object problem is really the simplest explanation, and it fits this.

See, the Estonian PM just doesn’t see women as responsible for things/responsible to fix things the way men are. Men are actors, you see, and women are victims (objects) acted upon by others (namely men).

See, that’s why she can go straight from citizens being responsible to men being targeted. She doesn’t see women as having the responsibilities of citizenship the way men do. They’re acted upon, not actors, you see.

This is very common in both feminist adherents and traditional conservatives, and she is no different.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:40 am

Galloism wrote:
El Lazaro wrote:“Woman bad” is not the only lens that should the world should be viewed from. The argument is quite obviously that Russian dissenters should stay in Russia to fight the government, and banning people eligible for conscription is going to trap a new wave of dissenters inside Russia.

This is, of course, horrifically stupid. Denying Russia new recruits would be more effective, and it is silly to expect political minorities to overthrow authoritarian governments without outside help. But it’s a product of misplaced anger towards Russian citizens who didn’t want this war, not a male genocide.

My hypothesis of the actor/object problem is really the simplest explanation, and it fits this.

See, the Estonian PM just doesn’t see women as responsible for things/responsible to fix things the way men are. Men are actors, you see, and women are victims (objects) acted upon by others (namely men).

See, that’s why she can go straight from citizens being responsible to men being targeted. She doesn’t see women as having the responsibilities of citizenship the way men do. They’re acted upon, not actors, you see.

This is very common in both feminist adherents and traditional conservatives, and she is no different.


My usual criticism of this theory is that women only become suddenly incapable of action when convenient to women , and what's more men only become capable of negative action, positive action is recast as negative unless it is specifically to the benefit of women in particular.

It's a neat framework but doesn't fully account for the dynamic which is markedly more disjointed and incoherent than a simple actor-object dichotomy makes out, unless and until you conclude that they simply hate men.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Annihilators of Chan Island
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Postby Annihilators of Chan Island » Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:51 am

Oh hey, another thread.

Probably will be just as bad as the last one.
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I honestly really like to write issues.

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El Lazaro
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Postby El Lazaro » Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:20 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
El Lazaro wrote:Russia is only conscripting men. The Kremlin isn’t exactly peak woke feminazism.


Why would "It's every citizens job to resist the regime" be related to who Russia is conscripting? And well done yes, you've noted how both a traditionalist regime like Russia and a feminist regime like Estonia both have the same view of men and their role in society.

You're attempting to "Explain" the logic of the action despite that being the very logic i'm criticizing as fundamentally sexist. Estonia allows women into the armed forces. They believe women are capable of armed combat... right up until it would be inconvenient for women for that to be the position of the government. Then, suddenly, only men are capable of armed resistance and it's their duty to resist Russia.

But phrase it as "Every citizens duty" and hope nobody notices I guess.

Because most people who want to leave the country specifically after conscription are people worried about conscription. It’s not that hard to put two and two together. The logic is narrow-minded and I don’t defend it, but that doesn’t mean you need to reach for a way to victimize yourself when other people have problems.

Galloism wrote:
El Lazaro wrote:“Woman bad” is not the only lens that should the world should be viewed from. The argument is quite obviously that Russian dissenters should stay in Russia to fight the government, and banning people eligible for conscription is going to trap a new wave of dissenters inside Russia.

This is, of course, horrifically stupid. Denying Russia new recruits would be more effective, and it is silly to expect political minorities to overthrow authoritarian governments without outside help. But it’s a product of misplaced anger towards Russian citizens who didn’t want this war, not a male genocide.

My hypothesis of the actor/object problem is really the simplest explanation, and it fits this.

See, the Estonian PM just doesn’t see women as responsible for things/responsible to fix things the way men are. Men are actors, you see, and women are victims (objects) acted upon by others (namely men).

See, that’s why she can go straight from citizens being responsible to men being targeted. She doesn’t see women as having the responsibilities of citizenship the way men do. They’re acted upon, not actors, you see.

This is very common in both feminist adherents and traditional conservatives, and she is no different.

EU (and particularly Baltic) politicians have proposed travel crackdowns on both genders for months. Using mental gymnastics to say that banning those fleeing conscription after the news broke isn’t actually about conscription is not the simplest explanation.
Last edited by El Lazaro on Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:43 pm

El Lazaro wrote:
Galloism wrote:My hypothesis of the actor/object problem is really the simplest explanation, and it fits this.

See, the Estonian PM just doesn’t see women as responsible for things/responsible to fix things the way men are. Men are actors, you see, and women are victims (objects) acted upon by others (namely men).

See, that’s why she can go straight from citizens being responsible to men being targeted. She doesn’t see women as having the responsibilities of citizenship the way men do. They’re acted upon, not actors, you see.

This is very common in both feminist adherents and traditional conservatives, and she is no different.

EU (and particularly Baltic) politicians have proposed travel crackdowns on both genders for months. Using mental gymnastics to say that banning those fleeing conscription after the news broke isn’t actually about conscription is not the simplest explanation.

No mental gymnastics required - they're just doing the thing they always do.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.



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