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((AMW)), Again

Where nations come together and discuss matters of varying degrees of importance. [In character]
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Walmington on Sea
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Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

((AMW)), Again

Postby Walmington on Sea » Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:33 am

After a record-breaking stretch of in-forum inactivity, and only a few thousand pages of telegrams and as many miles of Discord chatter, the time has come again: a good old-fashioned A Modern World reboot is upon us, and by gar, it has been a while!

This thread, we hope, shall serve as a comparatively clean slate upon which decrepit members of the Old Guard and naive honoured invitees may hash-out an initial understanding of our new (and not so new) claims, before doubtless being dirtied by the hurried feet of a thousand new applicants! Huzzah!



AMW, of course, is just about the oldest, and for a long time the laziest, of NS's semi-realistic RP groups, a closed world on some ancient arm of the multiverse. We use a world map as our foundation, and take basic information on population size and climate along with natural resources et cetera from the real world of today, while limiting in-character technology to near-current real-world standards without any of that so-called post-modern speculation.
The world continues to offer glittering prizes to those who have stout hearts and sharp swords.
-1st Earl of Birkenhead

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Walmington on Sea
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Walmington on Sea » Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:37 am

Allow me to begin here by following-on from our current members' off-site discussions.

My working map of the Walmish Empire incorporates some parts that I do not think will necessarily need much change come the proposed reboot, and which I do not think are likely to be in conflict with any so-far mooted claims.

Those include the island of Ireland ((Kingdom of Walmingland)); Gibraltar ((Mt.Godfrey)); Saint Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha ((Saint Aldhelm, Whitsun, and Wendsleybury)); the Bahamas ((Walmish West Indies)); Belize ((Walmish Honduras)); the Canary Islands ((Dominion of the Fortunate Islands)); Cabo Verde ((Colony of the Blessed Isles)); Cap Vert in Senegal ((Green Cape Colony)); Erongo in Namibia ((Waynesia Protectorate)); Zanzibar and Mafia in Tanzania ((Walmish Spice Islands)); the Seychelles ((Walmish Indian Ocean Territory)); East Timor, and West Timor ((Dominion of Australand)); and Singapore ((Colony of Sabara)).

In North Africa, Walmingland previously held parts of Morocco and Spanish-Morocco, namely Tanger-Tetouan-Al Hoceima and the Plazas de soberania ((Walmish North Africa)), and Melilla ((Amlil Protectorate)), but this was largely by agreement with TCB and based on assumptions about his own territory, so it may or may not continue, not being integral to my view of Walmish empire. Walmingland also held Djerba ((Colony of Gerba)), off the coast of Tunisia, which was largely owing to the unavailability of Malta, and I would prefer to exchange the one for the other if it should prove possible during the reboot.

I shall most likely persist with the Walmish protectorate on the Suez, covering Port Said, Ismailia, Suez, North Sinai, and South Sinai ((Suez Protectorate)), though this could be renegotiated depending on the nature of adjacent claims, should such arise.

In South Asia, Sri Lanka had served as Ceyloba, and the Andaman and Nicobar Islands as the Walmish East Indies. In light of certain other mooted claims in the region, I feel that holding on to Sri Lanka may be a bit much to expect, but I would be interested in its loss to Walmish interests in the face of the Red wind being a part of recent history, especially if other colonial nations play along ((he said, looking at Ian and TCB, amongst others)). I should still like a Colony of Ceyloba to exist in the Walmish sphere, however, and though Taiwan was suggested to me, I think that Madagascar ((held (and partially exploded in the interests of science) in some past life)) may be a better fit, if The Ralish is/are not still interested. Andaman and Nicobar, on the other hand, may appear more tenable ((as the Walmish East Indies))... less obviously valuable, perhaps, but now a political totem at home, and an interesting stage on which to play-out a slow-burning insurgency.

Then there is North America, where there appears to be a lot of interest from current and prospective players. I shall lay out the extent of Walmish claims, and let negotiations begin. First, Newfoundland ((Colony of Newfoundland)); St.Pierre & Miquelon ((Territory of Saint Peter and Archangel)); Prince Edward Island ((Colony of Prince Edryd Island)); Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick ((Colony of Albany)); Labrador, and Quebec's regions (per the relevant Wikipedia article) 2, 9, and 10 ((Norbray Territory)); and finally the remainder of Quebec ((Dominion of the Canadas)), where it seems most likely that some OOC border conflict may occur.

Edit: A Walmish South America? Per the off-site chat, I feel that the Walmish Empire would have required another breadbasket. To be a little different, I should like to incorporate Uruguay and, from Argentina the province of Entre Ríos.


Edited for a population break-down

Ireland: 5,275,004
Northern Ireland: 1,903,100
Gibraltar: 29,573
Malta: 464,186
Canary Islands: 2,153,389
Cabo Verde: 596,707
Saint Helena, Ascension, and Tristan da Cunha: 7,925
Cap Vert (Dakar Region): 3,388,499
Port Said, Ismailia, Suez, North Sinai, and South Sinai: 3,436,632
Erongo: 150,809
Zanzibar and Mafia Island: 1,350,419
Madagascar: 28,172,462
Singapore: 5,921,231
Seychelles: 97,017
Andaman and Nicobar: 380,520
Bahamas: 355,608
Belize: 412,387
Prince Edward Island: 167,680
New Brunswick: 800,243
Nova Scotia: 1,007,049
Newfoundland and Labrador: 522,875
Quebec: 8,653,184
West Timor: 2,011,735
East Timor: 1,445,006
Uruguay: 3,407,213
Entre Ríos: 1,235,994

Godfreyite Empire: 73,346,447
Last edited by Walmington on Sea on Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
The world continues to offer glittering prizes to those who have stout hearts and sharp swords.
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Chrinthanium
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Founded: Feb 04, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Chrinthanium » Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:06 pm

Allow me to toss my claim into the ever-growing list.

The Federal Republic of Chrinthania occupies a portion of North America as described: California, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Mexico.

Overall the land upon which the Federal Republic sits encompasses 216,479,015 people spread out over 4,494,093 km2 (1,735,863.17 mi2).

For those coming into this group who are unaware of just what Chrinthania is and what it stands for, erm..... think of a really, really progressive state, then perhaps go a bit beyond that. Not a paradise, mind you. No nation ever will be. Just a wonderful experiment in social democracy, progressive policies, and militant environmentalism. And surfers.

This post updated August 27nd, 2022 at 18:51 Eastern Daylight Time (UTC -4) to reflect a change in territory.
Last edited by Chrinthanium on Sat Aug 27, 2022 5:27 pm, edited 11 times in total.
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Spyr
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Founded: Antiquity
Democratic Socialists

Postby Spyr » Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:13 pm

A bit of slightly-edited copy-paste from my return a year and a bit back, hopefully no conflicts. There are always possibilities to expand, of course, but even without Dra-pol on the Korean peninsula the Yalu and mountains make such a reasonable border, and more of mainland Asia would force me to update all the lines on my maps...

People's Republic of Spyr

Image

Geography: Spyr would be found in northeastern Asia, its 'mainland' encompassing the following territories: the IRL People's Republic of China regions of Shandong, Hebei, Beijing, Tianjin, Liaoning, Jilin, Heilongjiang, and Inner Mongolia's Hulunbuir, Hinggan League, Tongliao, Chifeng, and Xilingol League, as well as the Russian Federation regions of Primorsky Krai, Sakhalin Oblast, Jewish Autonomous Oblast, Amur Oblast, and southern Khabarovsk Krai (roughly following the northeastward route of the Amur-Sakha border to reach the coast). Its 'overseas' territories, the result of a series of ZhengHe-esque exploratory expeditions, would include the Republic of Korea's Jeju province, Japan's Tsushima island, the Paracel islands in the South China Sea, and Wake Island.

Image

Population: 357,246,143-ish.

History: The lands now constituting the People's Republic of Spyr have a history dating back several millennia, when the Lyongese Empire arose from unification of the warring tribes and kingdoms in northeast Asia. An economic and cultural center in the region at its height, the empire went into steep decline in the 19th century, faced with the encroachment of foreign powers and internal conflicts. By the 20th century, the central government existed in name only, with various local officials and warlords battling each other to secure their fiefdoms and claims to the rest of the empire (often seeking foreign sponsorship to do so).

While popular rebellions had emerged regularly during this tumultuous period, its end came in the 1930s and 40s. Lyongese expatriates attending foreign institutions (many from the long-powerless nobility) took up ideas and visions of how their homeland might right itself from its chaotic circumstances. The works of Karl Marx found fertile ground among them, and when a particularly severe harvest triggered a wave of peasant uprisings, student groups were organized to offer them objectives they had previously lacked. Spyran histories tend to attribute this to organization and education of the people, leading to revolution... those more critical oft state that the 'revolution''s leaders leveraged religious and cultural influence moreso than Marxism. Regardless, through military defeat or alliance, the warlords and their era were ended, and Lyong reunified.

Though some would argue the revolution's success owed much to tradition, the new state took the name of 'Spyr' ('unity' in Lyongese) rather than that of the empire it replaced. Initially militant towards those powers who had exerted influence on its lands in times of division, the new government soon adopted the position that trade was vital to building up the country's productive forces. Production for export did indeed aid economic recovery, though some external critics hold that doing so involved compromises a workers' state ought not have made. The sacrifices of this era, correct or no, bore fruit in a sense, as the economy made the transition from focus on export to domestic.

Politics: The People's Republic of Spyr is a one-party state under the Strainist Party, self-proclaimed as a proletarian dictatorship adhering to Marxism and 'Strainism', an ideology holding itself to be an adaptation of such to local conditions in Lyong. There are few lines drawn between Party and state government, Party committees and officials exercising legislative, executive, and judicial functions.

For most of the time since its founding, Spyr was directed by its revolutionary leadership, who held firmly to their posts. But time marches ever onward, and despite their youth when they had taken the reins of the People's Republic the past few decades have seen a cascade of state funerals as one by one they have winked out. The inertia of their influence has continued to guide the country, but the successors to leadership lack the ramparts of reputation possessed by the Old Guard, and factional debates within the Party as to Spyr's proper course grow more intense.

Economy: From the famines and poverty plaguing the region before its revolution, Spyr has spent the past half-century engaged in remarkable recovery and development. Whether union shop stewards distributing caffeine injections on factory floors in the 50s was a necessary sacrifice to build productive forces (as the Party asserts) or exploitation of workers (as its critics hold), Spyr's early focus on exports has in recent decades undergone a transition to a more domestic focus. Cultural exports (both scrolls/ceramics in the style of ancient Lyong and more modern film/animation) are a growing industry.

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Mikinaki
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Founded: Aug 08, 2022
Ex-Nation

Postby Mikinaki » Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:12 pm

Reposting what was discussed on Discord here so it can be reviewed. Still working on a good flag and don't have any names for specific characters or historic figures yet.

My claim encompasses roughly the Great Lakes and New England regions of the United States plus the Canadian province of Ontario, with a population of about 109 million and an area of approximately 2,106,941 km2 (813,494 mi2).

The Federation of Mikinaki (Mishiwiidookodaadiwin Mikinaakominis, sometimes translated as "Union of Mikinaki" and occassionally poetically called the "United Nations of Turtle Island"; adjective Mikinabe, plural Mikinabeg) is a federal council republic descended from a confederation of First Nations that successfully resisted early European colonization efforts.

While it was originally comprised mainly of Anishinaabe, Iroquoian, and various miscellaneous Alongquian-speaking peoples, they also accepted large numbers of refugees fleeing or forcibly deported from neighboring European colonies. These tribes organized under a war chief and religious leader who forged a military-state that was able to fanatically fight off European imperialism and forge a largely homogenous national identity, at the cost of the libertarian communalist mode of organization the tribes had been fighting to defend. This led to internal tensions as industrialization took hold, leading to a revolution that largely restored the democratic federal model.

The government is a nested council republic utilizing the delegate model of representation, in which directorial councils are democratically elected from the neighborhood level upward to the federal level, where they form a unicameral legislature called the Federate Congress, which elects a Grand Council that serves as an executive directory.

In modern times, the federation is often described as "socialistic", although this is a moniker that the government officially rejects, claiming its form of political-economic organization is simply a natural evolution of historical indigenous practices. It maintains a decentralized planned economy in which basic needs, such as housing, food, and clothing, have been decommodified, and all firms are either employee-, community-, or state-owned. There is a strong economic focus on sustainable development and environmental stewardship.

In foreign policy, Mikinaki is inclined towards peaceable cooperation on its borders while aggressively funding anti-colonial projects overseas, ranging from sending troops to shore up guerrilla groups, to training doctors and teachers, to building infrastructure.


A possible bit of history that was proposed was that Walmish colonization may have begun as early as the Early Medieval Period, when a smaller technological gap would have allowed indigenous peoples to resist easier and given them much more time for the population to recover and develop immunity to European plagues. I'm very interested in exploring this option further.

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Iansisle
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Posts: 910
Founded: Antiquity
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Iansisle » Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:47 pm

Alright, I suppose it's time to take another shot at the Shield then.

I'm not going back to Eastern Europe. The dreary weather there was perfect but it was too isolated from the horrific transatlantic colonialism that I think gives the Shield so much of its charm. Portugal, meanwhile, had all the genocides you could want but was just so...sunny. Hard to get into the proper mood on a sunny beach! Great Britain is perhaps a little too populous and centrally important for someone with my (quite low) level of planned activity, so I think the Low Countries are the best compromise. EDIT: until I changed my mind.

Plus, if I ended up on an island state, how would LRR be able to set up a gigantic historically antagonistic empire along my border? ;) EDIT: If I leave most of England and Wales for him!

So, official claims:

HOME ISLANDS: Scotland, ceremonial counties of Northumberland, Cumberland, Tyne and Wear, Durham, Yorkshire (all ridings), Lancashire, Merseyside, Greater Manchester, Cheshire, Lincolnshire, Isle of Man, Isles of Scilly, Jersey and Guernsey. Population: 21,906,959

EMPIRE: Bermuda, Anguilla, British Virgin Islands, Montserrat, the Azores, Prince Edward Islands (South Africa), Rodrigues Island, Socotra. Population: 450,027.

Total claim: 22,356,986

Historically, fairly close to Dutch history, I'd imagine, with a peak in the 16th and 17th centuries financed by slave trading and genocidal pursuit of spices. Colonialism would have been more focused on short-term exploitation rather than long-term settler colonialism, although I'm willing to shed off some Boer-alikes if they're needed in Waynesia or something. Generally speaking, if your state is in need of former colonial oppressors, glad to step in. As trade revenue declined into the 18th and 19th centuries, the Empire would have stumbled along with industrialization in not-Belgium (I'm imagining that'd the source of some court politics).

More recently, I'd say we're a decade+ past the Gull Flag Revolution. Bradsworth and Madders have both gone to the gallows, and it may be Ranalte's turn next. The Callahans are no doubt waiting in the wings, having forgotten all sorts of stuff and learned lots of important lessons. The colonies have largely sloughed away, either through apathy of various Revolutionary governments, the too-firm hand of Ranalte, or the heroic efforts of the Rumbiak Brigade. Perhaps the Shield's European neighbors, having tired of the small state's disruptions to continental peace, are preparing to step in and end this nasty little business. Shieldians, weary of Ranalte's false promise (Peace! Stability! Ranalte!) are ready for it all to end.

Economically, the GDP/capita will be much lower than the area's RL numbers, especially following fifteen years of revolution, war, and terrors. I'll also have to look into which areas got flooded, either intentionally or through neglect. I'd imagine the above-quoted numbers probably reflect some dramatic (fictional) population decrease through famine and flight.

Er, I think that's all I have for tonight. Lovely to see everyone; will catch you again at the next reboot!

Edit: Updated the claim to current information.
Last edited by Iansisle on Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Chrinthanium
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Posts: 14825
Founded: Feb 04, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Chrinthanium » Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:50 pm

Iansisle wrote:Alright, I suppose it's time to take another shot at the Shield then.

I'm not going back to Eastern Europe. The dreary weather there was perfect but it was too isolated from the horrific transatlantic colonialism that I think gives the Shield so much of its charm. Portugal, meanwhile, had all the genocides you could want but was just so...sunny. Hard to get into the proper mood on a sunny beach! Great Britain is perhaps a little too populous and centrally important for someone with my (quite low) level of planned activity, so I think the Low Countries are the best compromise.

Plus, if I ended up on an island state, how would LRR be able to set up a gigantic historically antagonistic empire along my border? ;)

Let's pencil in the Netherlands (including the ABCs, Saba, Sint Maarten, and Sint Eustatius), Belgium, and Luxembourg. Back of the napkin math puts that at just under 30m (28,857,493, though I haven't done much digging into it). I might add a few more colonial possessions following discussion with WoS, Beeg, and any other interested parties.

Historically, fairly close to Dutch history, I'd imagine, with a peak in the 16th and 17th centuries financed by slave trading and genocidal pursuit of spices. Colonialism would have been more focused on short-term exploitation rather than long-term settler colonialism, although I'm willing to shed off some Boer-alikes if they're needed in Waynesia or something. Generally speaking, if your state is in need of former colonial oppressors, glad to step in. As trade revenue declined into the 18th and 19th centuries, the Empire would have stumbled along with industrialization in not-Belgium (I'm imagining that'd the source of some court politics).

More recently, I'd say we're a decade+ past the Gull Flag Revolution. Bradsworth and Madders have both gone to the gallows, and it may be Ranalte's turn next. The Callahans are no doubt waiting in the wings, having forgotten all sorts of stuff and learned lots of important lessons. The colonies have largely sloughed away, either through apathy of various Revolutionary governments, the too-firm hand of Ranalte, or the heroic efforts of the Rumbiak Brigade. Perhaps the Shield's European neighbors, having tired of the small state's disruptions to continental peace, are preparing to step in and end this nasty little business. Shieldians, weary of Ranalte's false promise (Peace! Stability! Ranalte!) are ready for it all to end.

Speaking of Europe, there was a proposal kicking around the discord for some sort of continental mega-state. My preference would be for it to not include both France and Germany to give me the possibility of two neighbors to play off each other. Also, like I said, LRR needs somewhere to plunk his gigantic Shield-hating empire!

Economically, the GDP/capita will be much lower than the area's RL numbers, especially following fifteen years of revolution, war, and terrors. I'll also have to look into which areas got flooded, either intentionally or through neglect. I'd imagine the above-quoted numbers probably reflect some dramatic (fictional) population decrease through famine and flight.

Er, I think that's all I have for tonight. Lovely to see everyone; will catch you again at the next reboot!



Well, unless LRR/TCB takes over Britain, I kind of think that may not happen based on some discord mapping I've seen. But, does this mean we bought the Virgin Islands from you?


Mikinaki wrote:Reposting what was discussed on Discord here so it can be reviewed. Still working on a good flag and don't have any names for specific characters or historic figures yet.

My claim encompasses roughly the Great Lakes and New England regions of the United States plus the Canadian province of Ontario, with a population of about 109 million and an area of approximately 2,106,941 km2 (813,494 mi2).

The Federation of Mikinaki (Mishiwiidookodaadiwin Mikinaakominis, sometimes translated as "Union of Mikinaki" and occassionally poetically called the "United Nations of Turtle Island"; adjective Mikinabe, plural Mikinabeg) is a federal council republic descended from a confederation of First Nations that successfully resisted early European colonization efforts.

While it was originally comprised mainly of Anishinaabe, Iroquoian, and various miscellaneous Alongquian-speaking peoples, they also accepted large numbers of refugees fleeing or forcibly deported from neighboring European colonies. These tribes organized under a war chief and religious leader who forged a military-state that was able to fanatically fight off European imperialism and forge a largely homogenous national identity, at the cost of the libertarian communalist mode of organization the tribes had been fighting to defend. This led to internal tensions as industrialization took hold, leading to a revolution that largely restored the democratic federal model.

The government is a nested council republic utilizing the delegate model of representation, in which directorial councils are democratically elected from the neighborhood level upward to the federal level, where they form a unicameral legislature called the Federate Congress, which elects a Grand Council that serves as an executive directory.

In modern times, the federation is often described as "socialistic", although this is a moniker that the government officially rejects, claiming its form of political-economic organization is simply a natural evolution of historical indigenous practices. It maintains a decentralized planned economy in which basic needs, such as housing, food, and clothing, have been decommodified, and all firms are either employee-, community-, or state-owned. There is a strong economic focus on sustainable development and environmental stewardship.

In foreign policy, Mikinaki is inclined towards peaceable cooperation on its borders while aggressively funding anti-colonial projects overseas, ranging from sending troops to shore up guerrilla groups, to training doctors and teachers, to building infrastructure.


A possible bit of history that was proposed was that Walmish colonization may have begun as early as the Early Medieval Period, when a smaller technological gap would have allowed indigenous peoples to resist easier and given them much more time for the population to recover and develop immunity to European plagues. I'm very interested in exploring this option further.


Well, Chrinthania loves to trade. And we're on your border, so hello trading partner! No real comments about your history outside of I like how it's already beginning! Welcome to AMW!


Spyr wrote:A bit of slightly-edited copy-paste from my return a year and a bit back, hopefully no conflicts. There are always possibilities to expand, of course, but even without Dra-pol on the Korean peninsula the Yalu and mountains make such a reasonable border, and more of mainland Asia would force me to update all the lines on my maps...

People's Republic of Spyr

(Image)

Geography: Spyr would be found in northeastern Asia, its 'mainland' encompassing the following territories: the IRL People's Republic of China regions of Shandong, Hebei, Beijing, Tianjin, Liaoning, Jilin, Heilongjiang, and Inner Mongolia's Hulunbuir, Hinggan League, Tongliao, Chifeng, and Xilingol League, as well as the Russian Federation regions of Primorsky Krai, Sakhalin Oblast, Jewish Autonomous Oblast, Amur Oblast, and southern Khabarovsk Krai (roughly following the northeastward route of the Amur-Sakha border to reach the coast). Its 'overseas' territories, the result of a series of ZhengHe-esque exploratory expeditions, would include the Republic of Korea's Jeju province, Japan's Tsushima island, the Paracel islands in the South China Sea, and Wake Island.

(Image)

Population: 357,246,143-ish.

History: The lands now constituting the People's Republic of Spyr have a history dating back several millennia, when the Lyongese Empire arose from unification of the warring tribes and kingdoms in northeast Asia. An economic and cultural center in the region at its height, the empire went into steep decline in the 19th century, faced with the encroachment of foreign powers and internal conflicts. By the 20th century, the central government existed in name only, with various local officials and warlords battling each other to secure their fiefdoms and claims to the rest of the empire (often seeking foreign sponsorship to do so).

While popular rebellions had emerged regularly during this tumultuous period, its end came in the 1930s and 40s. Lyongese expatriates attending foreign institutions (many from the long-powerless nobility) took up ideas and visions of how their homeland might right itself from its chaotic circumstances. The works of Karl Marx found fertile ground among them, and when a particularly severe harvest triggered a wave of peasant uprisings, student groups were organized to offer them objectives they had previously lacked. Spyran histories tend to attribute this to organization and education of the people, leading to revolution... those more critical oft state that the 'revolution''s leaders leveraged religious and cultural influence moreso than Marxism. Regardless, through military defeat or alliance, the warlords and their era were ended, and Lyong reunified.

Though some would argue the revolution's success owed much to tradition, the new state took the name of 'Spyr' ('unity' in Lyongese) rather than that of the empire it replaced. Initially militant towards those powers who had exerted influence on its lands in times of division, the new government soon adopted the position that trade was vital to building up the country's productive forces. Production for export did indeed aid economic recovery, though some external critics hold that doing so involved compromises a workers' state ought not have made. The sacrifices of this era, correct or no, bore fruit in a sense, as the economy made the transition from focus on export to domestic.

Politics: The People's Republic of Spyr is a one-party state under the Strainist Party, self-proclaimed as a proletarian dictatorship adhering to Marxism and 'Strainism', an ideology holding itself to be an adaptation of such to local conditions in Lyong. There are few lines drawn between Party and state government, Party committees and officials exercising legislative, executive, and judicial functions.

For most of the time since its founding, Spyr was directed by its revolutionary leadership, who held firmly to their posts. But time marches ever onward, and despite their youth when they had taken the reins of the People's Republic the past few decades have seen a cascade of state funerals as one by one they have winked out. The inertia of their influence has continued to guide the country, but the successors to leadership lack the ramparts of reputation possessed by the Old Guard, and factional debates within the Party as to Spyr's proper course grow more intense.

Economy: From the famines and poverty plaguing the region before its revolution, Spyr has spent the past half-century engaged in remarkable recovery and development. Whether union shop stewards distributing caffeine injections on factory floors in the 50s was a necessary sacrifice to build productive forces (as the Party asserts) or exploitation of workers (as its critics hold), Spyr's early focus on exports has in recent decades undergone a transition to a more domestic focus. Cultural exports (both scrolls/ceramics in the style of ancient Lyong and more modern film/animation) are a growing industry.


I mean, we have to get Anime from somewhere. With Mod eventually doing a Japan thing, might be interesting to see it from the Strainist point of view.

Almost makes me wish I had done something in parts of Asia as well. But, with Drapol probably eyeing something out that way I'm much happier in North America.
Last edited by Chrinthanium on Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Beddgelert
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 491
Founded: Antiquity
Democratic Socialists

Postby Beddgelert » Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:17 am

Commonwealth of Socialist Republics (CSR)
Cymanwlad Gweriniaethau Sosialaidd (CGS/GGS)


Perhaps better known by its Geletian Celtic name Beddgelert (often anglicised Beth Gellert as per approximate pronunciation), and sometimes colloquially known as Soviet India (though this may cease if there's never an IC explanation for the use of a Slavic term!).

First, a run-down of the claimed territories and their sizes and populations, for interest:

Sri Lanka
23,187,516
65,610 km2

Indian states and territories

Lakshadweep
64,473
32.62 km2

Kerala
34,630,192
38,863 km2

Tamil Nadu
72,147,030
130,058 km2

Karnataka
61,130,704
191,791 km2
$210 bln

Andhra Pradesh
49,386,799
162,975 km2

Telangana
35,003,674
112,077 km2

Odisha
41,974,218
155,707 km2

Chhattisgarh
29,436,231
135,192 km2

West Bengal
91,347,736
88,752 km2

Jharkhand
32,988,134
79,716 km2

Bihar
104,099,452
94,163 km2

Total:

575,396,159 people - 1,294,163 km2 (444/km2)

When it comes to the economy, I think that the renewed CSR will have to be one step behind the old European claim, being a recently post-colonial state long extractively exploited by foreign powers, and not long out of major civil strife.
The economic system will be quite different to that of most countries, and in-character economists and intelligence organisations will have a hard time putting hard GDP figures on it.
Never the less, for reference I imagine an upper target about half the typical PPP figures for a grouping of leading economies, such as the EU, which suggests something coincidentally about in-line with the global average GDP per capita IRL.
That would probably lead to most foreign resources in Capitalist states suggesting that the CSR has a GDP of something in the region of $18,000 per capita (Serbia, Mexico, Thailand, Colombia ballpark, depending on whose estimates you rely), or $10 trillion in total (would be about 3rd IRL, but not much more than half either of the top two).
I imagine that this level has been recently attained after two or three decades of break-neck growth as the state fundamentally reorganises economic life, and invests enormously in infrastructure that was previously extremely limited and geared to export. Now that many of the foundations have been laid, it is likely that the rate of growth is easing year on year, and there may be doubts as to whether the Igovian model will -or fundamentally even can- ever catch the leading Capitalist economies in per-capita output (which may be why the Igovians aren't even trying to measure their economy that way).

Now, this may mean some on-paper estimates claiming that the CSR's military budget is many hundreds of billions of dollars. In truth, though, the productive energy represented by currency that the CSR isn't even spending is manifest in supporting every aspect of the service personnel's lives. And this includes the vast, irregular popular militias: building and issuing hundreds of millions of small arms makes the economy and the military budget look big, but they don't give us the same capability as a more 'developed' nation would get spending the same resources on a couple of stealth-bombers. Massive costs are inherent in building military infrastructure almost from scratch, and, in the CSR, much of that capital expenditure falls under the military's so-called budget. The CSR is in the early phases of developing and/or deploying advanced big ticket items from nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles to aircraft carriers, >4th generation jet fighters, and nuclear submarines. Very little of it is as yet, uhm, perfect, but getting our paws on the basic strategic capabilities -at least nominally, if not always effectively- is politically important.

For those who don't know the history, an over-simplified premise is that Gauls who -IRL, at least- invaded the Balkans and descended into Greece 2,300 years ago, and crossed into Anatolia partly as mercenaries, in AMW continued east, sometimes peacefully passing through, sometimes violently as raiders, and sometimes again as mercenaries for local powers, until after some generations they arrived in South Asia and began to sink new roots. Their descendents now number in the tens of millions amongst the half-billion people of the CSR.
The colonial era came with the Walmish and probably others including the Shieldians and hopefully more, and ended violently during the C20th, probably not all at once.
Last edited by Beddgelert on Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Crooked Beat
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Crooked Beat » Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:12 pm

Hi, everybody!

After some preliminary discussions on Discord, it seems that southern England may be a very good place for a relocated Arcansa. Provided it does not infringe excessively on the prerogatives of others, I would prefer to keep the name. Other obvious candidates like Avalon, or even Camelot (Camelot!) are maybe a bit too obvious, I think, a bit forced, and Arcansa as a name has the advantage of fairly left-field origins.

(Edit: Seeing as Arcansa will probably clash with geography as established elsewhere in AMW, it will have to be dropped, however much I tend to like it and its unexpected discovery within a collection of Charles Portis journalism. Loegria is my leading alternative at present, a suitably unglamorous name for what is likely to be a decidedly unglamorous place, though I am open to other options and still on the look-out for something more clearly divorced from real-life British history. As for wider place-renaming, I'm still unsure as to whether I feel up to the task in its full magnitude, though we will start with the largest cities and work from there, assuming the result isn't too cringe-worthy.)

As we've sketched things out so far, this relocated Arcansa would occupy the remainder of England and Wales, with a modest and scattered empire remaining from what was, at one point, presumably a vastly larger colonial project. Perhaps a lengthy and futile campaign to keep possession of territories in India could provide Arcansa with a suitable twentieth-century military disaster?

(Edit: It's equally possible that Arcansa/Loegria, having either lost its colonies or its chance to begin colonization in earnest during its lengthy religious tumult, later grew into a kind of indirect imperialist, extracting wealth through corporate partnerships with the formal imperialists and helping to enable their control with technological development and financing. This would run parallel, of course, to the state's own more peripheral attempts at seizing overseas territories.)

The territories in question are:

-English counties of: Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, Dorset, Bristol, Gloucestershire, Wiltshire, Isle of Wight, Hampshire, Berkshire, Surrey, West Sussex, East Sussex, Kent, Greater London, Essex, Hertfordshire, Buckinghamshire, Oxfordshire, Herefordshire, Worcestershire, Warwickshire, Northamptonshire, Cambridgeshire, Suffolk, Norfolk, Rutland, Leicestershire, West Midlands, Shropshire, Staffordshire, Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire (population 40,157,833 according to 2018 numbers, provided I haven't forgotten or double-counted anything)
-Wales (population 3,267,501)
-Svalbard (if you'll indulge me) (population 2,939)
-Falkland Islands (population 3,398)
-South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands (unpopulated)
-British Antarctic Territory (unpopulated)
-Mauritania (population 4,614,974)
-Western Cape (population 7,113,776)
-Northern Cape (population 1,303,047)

This would yield a total population of about 62,846,645 (Edit: 71,263,468) (Edit 2: 56,463,468), of which 43,431,671 people inhabit metropolitan Arcansa and its scattered island territories, and 19,414,974 (Edit: 27,831,797) (Edit 2: 13,031,797) people are colonial subjects.

(Edit: On Chrin's latest map, if I'm not mistaken, Arcansa/Loegria appears to be credited with Belgium and the Netherlands. While I'm not necessarily opposed to tacking them on, either one or both, my fear is that they could make the state rather too powerful, and upset the three-way balance in the British Isles. At present I tend to picture Arcansa as a technologically-advanced, highly-industrialized place with a large and, in some respects, disproportionately-capable military, yet still solidly a middle power and one well past its peak. Belgium and the Netherlands might add too much capacity, quite apart from linguistic, historical, and cultural complications, and I can't help but think they would make more sense as a separate claim for someone else. A continental ally, of course, would be highly desirable, though I would prefer for this to be an in-character arrangement rather than a geographical fiat.)

(Edit: New Guinea has been omitted from Arcansa, as it stands to be included much more productively in other claims.)

A Brief Historical Overview

Some necessarily short if nonetheless very interesting discussions with Ian on Discord strongly suggest that most of what I'll go ahead and start calling Loegria belonged to the larger Shieldian kingdom and subsequently empire both prior to an invasion from the Scheldt area at about 1000-1100 ACE and then again after Damana's reconquest. I'm not sure exactly when that would have happened, though for present purposes 1200-1400 seems like a safe estimate. While Loegria's political leadership, an array of more- and less-powerful Dukes, Barons, and Counts, likely enjoyed or at least claimed significant autonomy from direct Shieldian rule, most were Shieldian in cultural and linguistic terms, and did not think of themselves as substantially different from their Northern neighbors. Political instability surrounding Prince Damana's succession, however, would have amplified Loegrian Dukes' independent-mindedness while simultaneously, if by no means permanently or universally, serving to immiserate large numbers of common people. No doubt suffering among the producing classes was more often a function of their own local rulers' depredations and rivalries than any consequence of real or at least unusual oppression at the hands of the Shieldian throne, though the end result across much of the South was an alarming spread of millenarian ideology and a deepening disaffection with the Catholic Church.

Matters began to take a more serious turn with the arrival of the printing press in London (which, experimentally, I might rename Eltonia) in the late 1400s. This technology, presumably imported by proto-capitalist elements engaged in trade with the Low Countries and Calais, was almost immediately put to use printing anti-Papal religious tracts, and these gave the beginnings of a unifying framework to what had previously been localized acts of heresy and rebellion. Between Damana's death, then, and the early 1500s, a great deal of combustible material would have been building up across society in what was then the Shieldian Kingdom's southern marches, and the advent of a charismatic, well-placed reformer, whom I'll name Clarendon Flanders, started a fire which would rage for another century with a particularly blasphemous sermon, widely reprinted, possibly on April 26, 1518 (the Feast of Saint Cletus).

From that point, religious rebellions would begin to flare-up with increasing regularity and ferocity to a point where, at about 1620, a civil war breaks out openly. It is, to begin with, something of a forlorn struggle for protestant rebels, in their earliest days an uncomfortable alliance between rural smallholders, burghers, and opportunistic nobles, and at several points Shieldian forces, as they at least temporarily self-identified, presumably looked poised to take back control of the entire south. A combination of missed opportunities and political errors, however, in which a number of important Barons formerly disposed to support the High King are alienated, allows a solid core of protestant militancy to survive, and this grows ever more powerful as additional anti-Catholic flare-ups and opportunistic external interventions sap Northern strength. The Shieldian Wars of Religion (a placeholder) are ultimately decided by the emergence on the protestant side of a highly-disciplined, semi-professional, rationalized and possibly also Walmingtonian-funded military organization, the New Christian Legion, which in the conflict's final stages inflicts a series of staggering defeats on fraying northern forces between 1648 and 1652, approximately. Under the iron-fisted leadership of Captain General Birchibald Moleman, a monumentally stern, austere, and incidentally extremely tall commanding officer, the New Christian Legion forces the Shieldian king to give up all claims to rule in modern-day Loegria (under strong duress, of course, and therefore immediately challenged), before turning on the newly-independent state to implement a murderous campaign of anti-clerical 'Confiscation.' Aiming to completely rebuild Loegrian society along albeit fuzzily-imagined Christian lines, the Confiscation process inaugurates another half-century of turbulence and conflict, pitting the New Christian League against many of its former allies, hunger-driven peasant rebels, northern attempts at reconquest, and threats of invasion from Catholic powers on the continent.

Politics in newly-independent Loegria does not settle down to a semblance of stability until perhaps 1710, and then only under threat of total disaster. A substantially reorganized Shieldian army under Ian of Shadoran succeeds in making major inroads into Wyclyfe (the Midlands), and is only stopped on the approaches to London/Eltonia through the combined efforts of numerous rival protestant military leaders, their conflicts resolved under a new constitutional framework, and possibly also with substantial Walmingtonian aid. Ian of Shadoran's own eventual demise, accompanied by the dismantling of his once-formidable military machine amid a crisis over succession, is taken advantage of by Loegria to launch a counter-invasion of Wyclyfe perhaps some time between 1730 and 1750, which though only partially successful illustrates a growing divergence between the south, by then under a republican-constitutional (if decidedly oligarchical) government and advancing into capitalist industrialization at a run, and a north that appears increasingly stagnant, reliant on mercantilism's diminishing returns and a still substantially feudal domestic economy. In military terms, I suspect the great contrast, at the risk of repeating real-life Anglo-Scottish history too closely, may be between the North's deeply-entrenched warrior culture and the South's strictly-disciplined mass army with its Prussian-inspired emphasis on close-order drill.

Perhaps the modern-day border is finally fixed at the close of a final north-south war during the Napoleonic Era, when the Shieldian High King, given what proves to be an empty promise of a supporting cross-Channel invasion, makes what he imagines to be one last all-out attempt to do away with the protestant breakaway. Initial successes, possibly the greatest of which is the complete destruction of a powerful Loegrian division in some kind of surprise night attack, subsequently give way to headlong retreat as the protestants concentrate their full force on driving out the invaders. This immense Army of the Dorcheat (as the Loegrians might call the river Trent), commanded by a Wellingtonesque General Kearney Brockman, might then pursue Shieldian forces far across the border, subsequently imposing on the High King a settlement that cedes Wyclyfe in its entirety, and maybe also some kind of mutual-defense treaty to keep out any would-be continental invaders.

From perhaps 1810 on, then, I tend to picture the Atlantic Islands as relatively peaceful, at least in terms of warfare between states. Internal conflict is a different matter, of course, and in Loegria at least class would replace religion as the major source of social tension. Like many of its continental neighbors, Loegria would look to colonial adventurism as a safety-valve for brewing unrest at home, though at the moment, beyond territories already mentioned, I'm unsure as to exactly what Loegria's targets would have been. Certainly, its sea-captains and generals would have been quick to try and batter down the doors of any territory not already claimed by a European power.

Domestic politics from the mid-1800s on would be characterized by largely peaceful if often very fraught competition between forces of capital and labor in what, by 1900, was perhaps Europe's most intensively-industrialized country, with religion, by no means a settled affair even at that stage, giving arguments an often-supernatural flavor. While tensions probably never rose to a level where civil war was a real possibility, Loegria's heavy economic dependence on manufacturing exports would leave it terribly vulnerable to fluctuations in the wider economy, and waves of strikes probably accompanied every substantial dip in global demand. The growth in influence of left-wing political parties may have also prompted a number of coup scares when leftist politicians appeared likely to win electoral majorities, while the possibility of a significant colonial withdrawal, perhaps from India or Indonesia, might well have seen the commanders of certain elite Army units attempt a putsch.

Loegria had cause to look upon the dawning of the new millennium with real trepidation, and its traditional reliance on heavy industry, entrenched by increasingly autarkic, protectionist policies enacted from the late-1970s on, has left it somewhat awkwardly-placed to participate in the more profitable high-tech economy. It is, presumably, a much poorer, drearier, more prudish and moralistic place than the real-life England of today, a place where near-total employment is offset by a palpable scarcity of consumer goods and a deeply conservative social climate.

An Overview of Government

Well, I suppose I could name it the... "Matlock Expressway"!
-Mayor Joseph 'Diamond Joe' Quimby

Formally styled the Commonwealth of Loegria, the state is a constitutional republic characterized by a separation of powers between executive, legislative, and judicial bodies. Present arrangements are built upon the Covenant of Haverbrook, signed in 1712 to formalize the establishment of an orderly, civil government from what was effectively a military dictatorship. The executive consists of the Custodian Protector, who serves as head-of-state and is elected by universal popular vote for a non-renewable term of seven years, and his Administrative Commissariat, a cabinet appointed by the duly-elected Custodian Protector. The most recent general election, held in 2019, confirmed as Custodian Protector the retired Lieutenant-General Orval Lee Jaggers, and his appointments or re-appointments to the Administrative Commissariat include:

Deputy Custodian Protector Anacletus E. Jamm
Paymaster-General Terrence Baggis
Postmaster-General Nemuel Paulding, Jr.
Commissary General of Administrative Affairs Cornelius Lurting
Commissary General of Foreign Affairs Floyd Q. Chowder
Chairman of the Standing Coordinating Committee for National Security Kenworth Dratch
Commissary General of the Navy Delroy M. Packwood
Commissary General of Territorial Defense Brigadier-General (Retired) Lazarus Talmadge
Commissary General of Public Safety Lionel Hatts
Commissary General of the Treasury Augustus Ray Daw
Commissary General of Trade and Industry Jorah Tillotson
Commissary General of Supply and Production Pythagoras M. Knops
Commissary General of Agriculture Jerom Pyland
Commissary General of Transportation Garnett Rex Cantine
Commissary General of Labor and Pensions Horace Gue
Commissary General of Energy Jemuel B. Loring
Commissary General of Education Stephanus Dyre
Commissary General of Health Elnathan J. Sharkley
Commissary General of Housing and Social Services Lot G. Crashaw
Commissary General of Works and Construction Osbert M. Jardine
Director of the National Institute of Standards Heber A. Rampton
Chairman of the Board of Corporations Elbert R. Schur

Authority to create and approve bills, including all matters related to state budgets, taxation, commercial regulations, and international treaties, is vested in a unicameral Council of Legislators. This consists of 407 Deputies elected to represent fixed territorial constituencies, ranging in population from approximately 57,700 to 73,000 inhabitants, by a voluntary, secret, and universal ballot for indefinitely-renewable, five-year terms. An additional 21 Deputies are elected on an at-large basis to represent Loegria's various 'Overseas Territories,' a measure usually interpreted as a democratic fig-leaf for what is at best a deeply unequal relationship.

Loegria's most recent general election, held in 2019, apportioned seats in the Council of Legislators by party according to this scheme, organized in descending order from right to left on the political spectrum:

-Knights of Dan (2)
-Anti-Danite Coalition (1)
-Logre National Association (8)
-Christ for All (29)
-Citizens for Jesus (198)
-Worshipful Friends of Seth (7)
-Unconditional Union Party (3)
-New Toleration Party (64)
-Nonpartisan League (79)
-Working People's Party (21)
-Left Democratic Party (9)
-Conference for Progressive Political Action (6)
-People's Green Giant Party (1)

An eleven-member College of High Justices serves as Loegria's court of final appeal, with jurisdiction over all civil, criminal, and constitutional matters. Justices are nominated by the Custodian Protector for life terms, subject to confirmation by a simple majority of Legislative Council Deputies, and to an archaic rule that any nominee must be, "a Christian in good standing." This latter provision, perhaps the last relic of the state's quasi-theocratic origins still enshrined in law, has withstood numerous legislative challenges and remains, for right-leaning parties, a profitable plank on their electoral platform. In a nation where all save for a negligible minority of legal professionals and scholars are white, male protestants, however, it is treated in practice as something of a formality.

The present College of High Justices includes, in descending order of seniority:

-Hosea Porter Rock (Principal Justice) (aged 87)
-Stillman Haynes Swayne (aged 84)
-Lyman Harmon Batt (aged 81)
-Ward Cooper Peckham (aged 78)
-Lewis Evans Woods (aged 78)
-Gilbert Billings Flake (aged 74)
-Elam Duncan Cannon (aged 73)
-Hiram Grover Clapp (aged 70)
-Seraph Eames Fielding (aged 68)
-Orson Jakes Hooper (aged 65)
-Shadrach Goble Stenhouse (aged 64)

An Overview of the Economy

Precise facts and figures, in light of conditions so ably described (as ever) by Spyr, are probably best avoided at this stage, so I will try to give a more qualitative sense of Loegria's economic situation and its place in global trade. In broad strokes at least, Loegria mirrors real-life Britain fairly closely, except for its much later and much more constrained participation in colonial conquest. Its century of religious and political turbulence, from statehood at about 1652 to domestic peace and relative territorial integrity by 1750 or so, likely denied Loegria any opportunity for direct participation in mercantilism's golden age, though this may have been something of a blessing in disguise. Destruction of the titled, landed nobility, both cause and consequence of a rising proto-capitalist class, tended to elevate what I might vaguely call Weberian values at an early stage. A general lack of colonial treasure, coupled with a Puritan aversion to luxury, may have helped spare Loegria the inflationary pressure that ultimately wrecked Spain and the precipitous spending on ostentation that, for all its rational political underpinnings, did France no favors either. Savings and investment, together with the beginnings of modern finance and a definite piratical streak on the part of numerous Logre "adventure capitalists," to borrow Max Weber's lovely term, presumably helped to position the state rather favorably for the industrial revolution.

Matters really take off, in my imagining, after about 1750, with a succession of important technical advances on the part of Logre inventors and scientists serving to intensify the nation's productive capacities by leaps and bounds over the next 150 years. Ready access to productive coalfields in Wales and the West Midlands, together with useful deposits of tin and copper in Cornwall, presumably helped to drive the development of a heavy-industrial sector that, for a time at least, may have been second to none. Flourishing mechanization contributed in turn to the expansion of a precision-engineering sector and a continuing parade of innovation in metallurgy, power-generation, and transport. By 1900, of course, foreign economies have almost certainly overtaken Loegria in terms of raw output, and its place as world leader in many technical fields has probably been lost. Loegria will remain synonymous with industry, however, and an increasingly unprofitable, uncompetitive manufacturing sector is kept afloat through heavy subsidization and tariff protection by a government totally unwilling to run the social risks that its collapse would entail.

Modern-day Loegria likely continues to see itself, fairly or not, as a leading industrial power and an important technological innovator. An obsession with production for export, reflected in the low purchasing power of its currency (which I may call the Osterling), presumably holds Loegria's median standard-of-living to a low level, closer to that of Britain in the 1950-1970 era rather than today's hyper-abundance.

I'm not at all sure about where banking and finance fit into this picture, as I don't begin to understand that particular subject. Logria's central bankers were probably much less concerned with maintaining the value of their currency than were their counterparts in real-life Britain, and a refusal to be shackled to the pound may have spared the Logre economy some anguish. Then again, by accepting a comparatively worthless currency Loegria doubtless bought itself a different set of problems.

Agricultural self-sufficiency, a cursory look at real-life consumption figures suggests, is simply not possible even allowing for a rather more intensive rate of cultivation, helped along slightly by the early confiscation of large aristocratic holdings with their acres of useless lawns. While the situation may not be quite so bad as it is for the Shield, with its colder climate and more mountainous geography, a significant proportion of Loegria's food requirement will have to be imported. Fishing no doubt remains, as in real-life Britain, a culturally important if economically insignificant activity, and fisheries disputes among the regional neighbors may be frequent.

Some Military Notes

Loegria, as I tend to picture matters, is fairly heavily-militarized, with National Service very much in place and civil-defense drills a not-uncommon occurrence. Something of a 'Fortress Loegria' mentality might still prevail, with blockade and, to a lesser extent, treated as real if distant dangers. Of more immediate concern would be threats to Loegria's rump empire, the meaningful defense of which, depending on the aggressor, is probably accepted by most senior military leaders as beyond the nation's abilities. Strategic realism would not inhibit the maintenance of substantial overseas garrisons, however, alongside at least some level of power-projection capability. Precisely what that might entail, I have yet to decide. Loegria will almost have to be, I think, a nuclear power, if it means to be taken seriously on the world stage, and yet a desire to avoid the astronomical costs associated with Polaris/Trident and the SSBN fleet means that deterrence will rely on less-sophisticated delivery systems. This would probably include versions of or successors to Blue Streak, Blue Steel, and Blue Water missiles, a nuclear-tipped variant of the CASOM, and WE.177 free-fall bombs.

(EDIT: My initial assumptions regarding Polaris appear to have been seriously mistaken. Neither Blue Streak or Blue Steel offered anything approaching the Polaris system's second-strike capability, which is exactly what Britain so desperately sought, and while Skybolt does appear to have been a viable lower-cost alternative to the SSBN, for Arcansa it is just as unobtainable as Polaris. With Blue Streak an obvious non-starter (though possibly the jumping-off point for an Arcan space program), Arcansa is more or less stuck with Blue Steel, which in effect means that the nuclear deterrent will continue to rely on overflying bombers to a significant extent up to 1970, by which point a rather more credible Blue Steel Mk.2 was presumably in service. Nowadays, given an even more challenging lack of options, Arcansa will presumably use a Tomahawk-like cruise missile (the Ling-Temco-Vought YBGM-110) for nuclear-weapons delivery, spread across a crude triad of mobile ground launchers, elderly and heavily-rebuilt Victors, and SSNs.)

National defense-industrial capabilities could be quite extensive and moderately advanced, with Loegria enjoying nearly total self-sufficiency in arms and military systems. A sprawling military-industrial complex, apart from its being inextricably intertwined with the state's very structure, is potentially justified in both strategic and economic terms, and at a time when demand for Loegria's civilian products is not exactly high, arms exports are doubtless seen as a reliable way to preserve an immensely important industrial base. It may be too soon to attempt a three-way split of Britain's main industrial and defense-industrial concerns, not least due to the fact, encountered often enough where North America is concerned, that a company today headquartered in London may have started operations in Manchester before going on to absorb firms based in Somerset and Glasgow, and then being in turn consolidated with companies founded in Belfast and Southampton. There does seem to more than enough for everyone, however, and probably several other besides, so I can't picture the matter becoming a problem.

Things become more complicated after about 1960, of course, and with the dawning of the consortium age more complicated still. My present inclination is simply to cut-out multilateral projects or license-built equipment wherever possible, for instance trading Jaguar for P.1121, Sea King for Westland Westminster (ignore the Sikorsky rotor system!), Hercules for (Walmingtonian import) Short Belfast, and Westland WG.11 for both Chinook and Puma. Matters become more challenging for systems and equipment where a clear all-British alternative is not evident or was never defined. Westland, it seems, can stake a good claim on the Lynx, for which I'd be happy to drop the Puma, Gazelle, and, rather more painfully, Merlin. Tornado is a thornier proposition, hammered out across a decade of tortured negotiation between British, German, and Italian delegations, arguably German in concept yet clearly no great departure from the Anglo-French Variable Geometry Aircraft, and used in greatest numbers by the RAF. My great preference would be to keep Tornado in exchange for giving up the Eurofighter, a questionable choice if we weigh relative effectiveness yet perhaps explicable in light of Loegria's lower capacity for such an advanced project. It might make better sense for Arcansa/Loegria to move ahead technologically by small steps, working toward, say, the FOAS by way of Tornado 2000.

PAAMS/Aster, I think, will have to be given up, fleet air defense relying instead on the GWS 31 version of Sea Dart, GWS 27 version of Sea Wolf, and, much more recently, CAMM. Meteor might be traded for the S225X missile, assuming we forget about its Skyflash, therefore Sparrow, origins.

Some of real-life Britain's more ambitious recent military projects might also, I think, work out to be far too expensive for Loegria. I'm specifically most concerned about the Type 45 destroyer, Queen Elizabeth class carriers, and Astute class SSNs, with the Vanguard class SSBNs entirely out of the question to begin with. It would be difficult to do without the Type 45, primarily its radar system, and hope to provide any credible level of shipping defense on the Western Approaches, so I'm hoping it might be re-worked as a bilateral project with Walmington (though of course they were built in large part on the Clyde!), each navy perhaps accepting four or five to the RN's order for six, to yield a larger and therefore cheaper building run. The Queen Elizabeth class is especially difficult to square with present national resources, as even one hull would demand painful cuts elsewhere without delivering any worthwhile military capability. Walmingtonian insistence could perhaps overcome Logre misgivings, though there remains the problem of providing it with a modern aircraft, as the Sea Harrier would be the only machine available.

The Astute class, while more affordable than the Queen Elizabeths and probably more useful than either it or the Type 45, would also seem to call that latter program into question. Even without SSBNs to take care of, there doesn't seem to be any room in the budget for more than one of these high-end acquisitions, so Walmingtonian preferences would likely tip the balance. Nuclear-powered submarines more generally may not really be a practical option for Loegria, although if some means of influence east-of-Suez (as the old saying goes) is sought, they are more suitable than just about anything else. To maintain a sufficiently numerous force, ten being the absolute minimum at least according to the RAND corporation, Loegria would probably have to stop building conventional submarines after the Porpoise class, and would possibly need to either abandon or drastically downsize the Command Cruiser as well. Here again, Walmingtonian attitudes would help to settle Logre opinions one way or the other.


Well, that's more than enough for now, I'll continue filling-in the details here as I'm able! Ideally, I will use this section as the foundation for a factbook at some (not too distant, I hope!) future point.
Last edited by The Crooked Beat on Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.


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