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Valanora
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Postby Valanora » Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:52 pm

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Qualifying
Qualifying will be done in a double round robin, each team playing home and away to the other teams in the group. We will be looking to utilize 15 or 20 groups, where the winner of the group automatically qualifies. In the case of 15 groups, the 2nd and 3rd placed teams will take part in a playoff to determine the other 15 qualifiers, while the runners up would take part in a 20 group format.
Tiebreakers for Qualifying will be: GD, H2H pts, H2D gd, H2H gf, Coin Toss (a scorinated game using RP bonus only)

Scorination will utilize the 2 MDs per 48 hours format, with the exception of the first and last games of the campaign.

Formula and Bonus
Our bid will be using NSFS formula on the xkoranate platform, using the xkoranate modifiers (modifiers will be limited to a +-3). RP bonus will be cumulative during the Qualifying stages and reset for the Finals, there will be a small carryover for those who do qualify. RP bonus will be judged upon quality not quantity of work and be substantial enough that frequently RP unranked or low ranked nations can challenge for results.

There will be a substantial roster bonus for those who post their rosters prior to MD1. Posting your roster after MD1 but before the halfway mark will see your KPBs reduced in half until posting. Posting your roster after the halfway mark but before the end of qualifiers will see no KPBs used until your roster is posted.

Finals
For the Finals, Tiebreakers will be changed so that H2H comes before GD. The tournament will take place between Valanora and the SRS, with the Final being in the Battleground in Raynor City.

Experience
Valanora is one of the most trusted users when it comes to hosting, having hosted at least ten World Cups as well as many various regional tournaments, the AOCL and CdC, the Di Bradini Cup, and numerous other events.

Squorn, the user behind SRS, has previously hosted IAC14 (as Belnegau), and was the principal co-host (together with Banija and Milchama) of the AOlympics Winter Festival held in conjunction with AOCAF Cup 66.

Valanora and SRS are happy to take your questions and comments about this bid now.
Last edited by Valanora on Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hapilopper
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Postby Hapilopper » Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:57 pm

Valanora wrote:Our bid will be using NSFS formula on the xkoranate platform, using the xkoranate modifiers (modifiers will be limited to a +-3).


I'm someone who has very little knowledge of how scorinators work, so I'm curious, what does this mean? Does this mean anything for style modifiers in rosters?
Last edited by Hapilopper on Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Independent Athletes from Quebec
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Postby Independent Athletes from Quebec » Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:02 pm

Of course I trust both cohosts to run a smooth, reliable WC and this is a solid bid that covers ground with most of the recent progresses made on WCs (halving of non-rosterinated nations' KPB ranks, 2/48, etc).

Few questions: What's the rough timeframe this bidding pair plans to run the WCQ? I remember ESF mentioning a rough start day several weeks back, but with the IFCF deadline happening much later than the tentative deadline, and ESF being involved within the IFCF Council, it'd be great to know this in advance.

And should this bid pass and we end up with a minor overlap, who will be scorinating the first half of competitions?

Also, how much does small carryover constitute for those who qualify? With the recent tournaments of footballing kind (U18WC and BoF) specifying rough threshold of roster/RP bonus and scale, it'd be great to at least have a loose sense of how much it'd constitute.

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Saint Eleanor
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Postby Saint Eleanor » Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:06 pm

Will this be a 32-team World Cup?

Why are style mods exceeding +/-3 not allowed? And if somebody tries to exceed them, will their style mod just be reset to +/-3 exactly (as appropriate)?

In a playoff tie that finishes
Pasarga 1-0 Belnegau
Belnegau 2-1 Pasarga
after 180 minutes, who progresses to the World Cup Finals and how?

The last World Cup bid involving the player behind Valanora was Valanora/Chromatika, for WC87. It was said at the time that "While we believe the idea behind a rosterless penalty has merit, we currently do not think there is a fair way to implement the idea." In what regards do the current hosts believe that their roster penalty formula is fair (considering that the WC91 formula had a flat 50% reduction in KPB that did not ramp up after the halfway stage)?

"There will be a substantial roster bonus for those who post their rosters prior to MD1." Will those who - for whatever reason - post rosters after MD1 get bonus?
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Audioslavia
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Postby Audioslavia » Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:31 pm

To avoid a conflict of interest, what steps will you be taking to ensure Valanora scorinates zero of Pasarga's games?

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Graintfjall
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Postby Graintfjall » Sun Aug 07, 2022 5:41 pm

Would you be willing to share RP bonus with the winning CoH bid?
Posting your roster after MD1 but before the halfway mark will see your KPBs reduced in half until posting. Posting your roster after the halfway mark but before the end of qualifiers will see no KPBs used until your roster is posted.

I want to check I understand how this will work.

Group stage lasts 18 games. Footiestan, Soccertopia and República de Fútbol all happen to have 40 KPBs.

Footiestan has not posted a roster. Their first 9 games are scorinated using 20 KPBs. Their second 9 games are scorinated using 0 KPBs.

Soccertopia posts a roster after 6 games. Their first 6 games are scorinated using 20 KPBs. Their last 12 games are scorinated using 40 KPBs.

República de Fútbol posts a roster after 12 games. Their first 9 games are scorinated using 20 KPBs. Their next 3 games are scorinated using 0 KPBs. Their final 6 games are scorinated using 40 KPBs.
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Chromatika
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Postby Chromatika » Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:13 pm

The whole concept of NSSport is to allow an opportunity to experience an alternate history where ponies can play football, elves exist, countries have extensive space programs and live on other planets, and one of the best teams in the world plays in a Dream Realm. If these don't trip the realism factor I fail to see why we must regulate style mods.
Last edited by Chromatika on Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Strike
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Postby Strike » Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:24 pm

Chromatika wrote:The whole concept of NSSport is to allow an opportunity to experience an alternate history where ponies can play football, elves exist, countries have extensive space programs and live on other planets, and one of the best teams in the world plays in a Dream Realm. If these don't trip the realism factor I fail to see why we must regulate style mods.


I don't remotely see how these two things are connected in any possible way. I don't know the reason why they proposed this (I assume it is an OOC reason related to scorination) and won't pretend to try to answer on their behalf. But whether your team is +5 or +3 or +1093, if its using the maximum modifier the hosts permit for that competition, then you can easily RP it as an attacking side.

Style mods are regulated, and always have been, OOCly. The most commonly regulated range in modern NS Sport is +5/-5 but it is still a defined and regulated range. What the "range" is - is strictly an OOC construct. This has absolutely no conceivable correlation to whether elves exist, we have space programs, live on other plants or play in the dream realm. You don't reference yourself as a "+4" ICly, you just say you are an attacking team.

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Valanora
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Postby Valanora » Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:27 pm

Hapilopper wrote:I'm someone who has very little knowledge of how scorinators work, so I'm curious, what does this mean? Does this mean anything for style modifiers in rosters?

It means that modifiers will be allowed only from a -3 to +3 range instead of a -5 to +5 range.

Saint Eleanor wrote:Why are style mods exceeding +/-3 not allowed? And if somebody tries to exceed them, will their style mod just be reset to +/-3 exactly (as appropriate)?

There is some evidence that extreme modifiers, particularly extreme negative modifiers, may in fact alter results. If we win the bid and roster is posted with a modifier beyond the +-3 range, it will be scaled to the according max.

Saint Eleanor wrote:Will this be a 32-team World Cup?

Yes, the Finals we consist of 32 teams.

Saint Eleanor wrote:The last World Cup bid involving the player behind Valanora was Valanora/Chromatika, for WC87. It was said at the time that "While we believe the idea behind a rosterless penalty has merit, we currently do not think there is a fair way to implement the idea." In what regards do the current hosts believe that their roster penalty formula is fair (considering that the WC91 formula had a flat 50% reduction in KPB that did not ramp up after the halfway stage)?

In the time since that bid the community has showed a far greater increase in the desire for roster penalties. We believe that by scaling the penalty to various points of the qualifiers, it provides the most fair way of enacting such a penalty, if there is a way for such a penalty to ultimately be fair.

Saint Eleanor wrote:"There will be a substantial roster bonus for those who post their rosters prior to MD1." Will those who - for whatever reason - post rosters after MD1 get bonus?

Those who would post a roster after MD1, excluding the host nations, would be granted a normal bonus and have the roster penalty removed, but not receive the added bonus for posting prior to MD1.

Saint Eleanor wrote:In a playoff tie that finishes
Pasarga 1-0 Belnegau
Belnegau 2-1 Pasarga
after 180 minutes, who progresses to the World Cup Finals and how?

The tie will go to extra time and then penalties if needed to decide who advances.

Independent Athletes from Quebec wrote:What's the rough timeframe this bidding pair plans to run the WCQ? I remember ESF mentioning a rough start day several weeks back, but with the IFCF deadline happening much later than the tentative deadline, and ESF being involved within the IFCF Council, it'd be great to know this in advance.

The current timeline would see the qualifiers start no earlier than Labor Day Weekend (USA). Any overlap that does happen will not be overly effected by my IFCF obligations as I am not slated to host a tournament this cycle. Regardless of the exact start date, Squorn will be scorinating the first half of Qualifiers and I the second half, then each of us would scorinate a leg of the playoffs.

Independent Athletes from Quebec wrote:Also, how much does small carryover constitute for those who qualify? With the recent tournaments of footballing kind (U18WC and BoF) specifying rough threshold of roster/RP bonus and scale, it'd be great to at least have a loose sense of how much it'd constitute.

As of right now, no larger than a single MD worth of full bonus.

Audioslavia wrote:To avoid a conflict of interest, what steps will you be taking to ensure Valanora scorinates zero of Pasarga's games?

As is the fairly standard practice, if Pasarga were to qualify for the Finals, they will be drawn into Valanora. There is currently no plans to use a third party for the qualifiers due to schedule and logistical reasons.
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Squornshelan Remnant States
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Postby Squornshelan Remnant States » Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:37 pm

I would add to the puppet-related questions that my puppet Belnegau does not and will not participate in the World Cup, and that hosts having puppets participating in qualifying is hardly a new or contentious phenomenon.

The Post-Labor Day (Sep. 5) time frame is a result of my own schedule restrictions, but there is a nice coincidence with the IFCF cutoff in that everyone will have their leagues in prior to the start of quals.
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Farfadillis
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Postby Farfadillis » Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:41 pm

As one of the affected parties in the whole style mod limit thing, I have to say I don't really mind (I don't exactly prefer it, either, to be clear), and that I think the realism argument makes sense. We permit ponies and elves and Farves and whatever but the underlying sport is still football. I feel like the arguments offered against limiting style mods could be reproduced verbatim as arguments in favor of using the basketball scorinator instead of NSFS/SQIS.

Put more bluntly: as I've expressed before on Discord, I believe "But [THE/EQS/etc]!" is a tiresome blanket statement at this point that seems to get applied whenever anyone seeks any measure of realism.
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Postby Tikariot » Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:42 pm

Valanora wrote:
Audioslavia wrote:To avoid a conflict of interest, what steps will you be taking to ensure Valanora scorinates zero of Pasarga's games?

As is the fairly standard practice, if Pasarga were to qualify for the Finals, they will be drawn into Valanora. There is currently no plans to use a third party for the qualifiers due to schedule and logistical reasons.

In pretty much all tournaments I have been part of or have followed, it has been the standard practice that a third party would be used for games of the own nation or puppet. Obviously I am not privy to Squorn's schedule, but one would believe that either Squorn or someone else (potentially someone who is not participating in the WCQ, in case any potential insight into RP bonus would be part of the reasoning) would be available and willing to scorinate such an occurrence.
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Independent Athletes from Quebec
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Postby Independent Athletes from Quebec » Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:44 pm

Thank you for your clarification re: the WCQ schedule split and IFCF commitments. I am glad to receive prompt responses by both cobidders to my questions.

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Postby PotatoFarmers » Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:21 pm

Valanora wrote:
Saint Eleanor wrote:In a playoff tie that finishes
Pasarga 1-0 Belnegau
Belnegau 2-1 Pasarga
after 180 minutes, who progresses to the World Cup Finals and how?

The tie will go to extra time and then penalties if needed to decide who advances.


A little nitpick here - how would the extra time and penalties be scorinated?
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Tikariot
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Postby Tikariot » Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:52 pm

Tikariot wrote:
Valanora wrote:As is the fairly standard practice, if Pasarga were to qualify for the Finals, they will be drawn into Valanora. There is currently no plans to use a third party for the qualifiers due to schedule and logistical reasons.

In pretty much all tournaments I have been part of or have followed, it has been the standard practice that a third party would be used for games of the own nation or puppet. Obviously I am not privy to Squorn's schedule, but one would believe that either Squorn or someone else (potentially someone who is not participating in the WCQ, in case any potential insight into RP bonus would be part of the reasoning) would be available and willing to scorinate such an occurrence.

For clarification, this point is mostly intended to avoid setting a precedent for other sports and tournaments, not specifically this bid and the nations/users behind it.
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Postby Savigliane » Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:53 pm

Valanora wrote:There is some evidence that extreme modifiers, particularly extreme negative modifiers, may in fact alter results. If we win the bid and roster is posted with a modifier beyond the +-3 range, it will be scaled to the according max.


How exactly do extreme modifiers affect results in NSFS, and where was the evidence for this collected?
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Postby Graintfjall » Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:33 am

Savigliane wrote:
Valanora wrote:There is some evidence that extreme modifiers, particularly extreme negative modifiers, may in fact alter results. If we win the bid and roster is posted with a modifier beyond the +-3 range, it will be scaled to the according max.


How exactly do extreme modifiers affect results in NSFS, and where was the evidence for this collected?

Yes, definitely. I meant to ask this is in my comment. Please present the evidence.
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Audioslavia
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Postby Audioslavia » Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:53 am

Valanora wrote:
Audioslavia wrote:To avoid a conflict of interest, what steps will you be taking to ensure Valanora scorinates zero of Pasarga's games?

As is the fairly standard practice, if Pasarga were to qualify for the Finals, they will be drawn into Valanora. There is currently no plans to use a third party for the qualifiers due to schedule and logistical reasons.


Emphasis mine. I don't think this is good enough. Over the last seven years, I can't find any evidence of a reasonably long-term nation having any of its scores generated by its user, at least not since you ran qualifying in World Cup 72. 'Long-term nation' is a subjective term, so I'll just list all of them from the last seven years:

Le Choix in WC88 (4-2-3 record scorinated by Chromatika)
Busoga Islands in WC83 (4-1-1 record scorinated by Banija)
Nuevo Caracas in WC77 (3-3-3 record scorinated by Queb)
Norrehavn in WC73 (1-2-3 record scorinated by Queb)

I don't think any of these nations had entered more than one previous World Cup.

Vil neatly avoided scorinating any of his teams' games in WC90 and WC91, the former through splitting groups with his co-host and the latter through utilising the Vilitan plan. Tik did the same to avoid scorinating any of Pyazhnaya's games in WC89. You yourself used the Vilitan plan to avoid scorinating any of Pasarga's games in WC82. I strongly believe that you (and anyone else with a long term puppet, such as Vil or Neph) should make *every* effort to avoid generating scores for one of their two nations in a tournament as important as World Cup Qualifying.

The rest of the bid is fine, but I'm strongly opposed to it unless this gets changed.

For what its worth, having a max of +3 / -3 for style modifiers is fine for me regardless of the reasons given.

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Valanora
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Postby Valanora » Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:46 am

The bid has been withdrawn.
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Banija
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Postby Banija » Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:18 am

Audioslavia wrote:
Valanora wrote:As is the fairly standard practice, if Pasarga were to qualify for the Finals, they will be drawn into Valanora. There is currently no plans to use a third party for the qualifiers due to schedule and logistical reasons.


Emphasis mine. I don't think this is good enough. Over the last seven years, I can't find any evidence of a reasonably long-term nation having any of its scores generated by its user, at least not since you ran qualifying in World Cup 72. 'Long-term nation' is a subjective term, so I'll just list all of them from the last seven years:

Le Choix in WC88 (4-2-3 record scorinated by Chromatika)
Busoga Islands in WC83 (4-1-1 record scorinated by Banija)
Nuevo Caracas in WC77 (3-3-3 record scorinated by Queb)
Norrehavn in WC73 (1-2-3 record scorinated by Queb)

I don't think any of these nations had entered more than one previous World Cup.

Vil neatly avoided scorinating any of his teams' games in WC90 and WC91, the former through splitting groups with his co-host and the latter through utilising the Vilitan plan. Tik did the same to avoid scorinating any of Pyazhnaya's games in WC89. You yourself used the Vilitan plan to avoid scorinating any of Pasarga's games in WC82. I strongly believe that you (and anyone else with a long term puppet, such as Vil or Neph) should make *every* effort to avoid generating scores for one of their two nations in a tournament as important as World Cup Qualifying.

The rest of the bid is fine, but I'm strongly opposed to it unless this gets changed.

For what its worth, having a max of +3 / -3 for style modifiers is fine for me regardless of the reasons given.


I know the bid is withdrawn, but I don't want to miss the chance to make this point- I do not think it is a big problem to have a host score their own puppet's scores during Qualifying.

We are obviously entrusting them with the responsibilities of scorinating a World Cup, I think that they can be trusted to do so properly, including their own puppet's scores in a group setting, if necessary. Valanora is one of the most experienced and trustworthy hosts that NSS has. In many NSS tournaments that lack Qualifiers (aka all of them besides this one), hosts often score their own group stage matches, which this would be a continuation of. And as is seen above from Audio, there is clearly precedent for this happening in recent World Cups, and there is probably precedent for times before that. It is something that will happen with many 2 man bids (not every plan HAS to be Vilitan), and I don't think it's a major point of concern.

If they got to the qualification playoffs or something, that's a different story, but that's not what was being asked. And obviously Finals was mentioned that Pasarga would not be scored by Valanora, which obviously everybody seems to be in agreement on.
Last edited by Banija on Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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