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Police: Heroes or Villains?

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Atlantic Federalist Republic
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Moralistic Democracy

Police: Heroes or Villains?

Postby Atlantic Federalist Republic » Sat Jul 23, 2022 6:38 pm

Faced with several cases of police violence in the United States, and in several other countries, such as Brazil, which not so recently, but not so long ago, registered a case of a dead man asphyxiated inside a vehicle by federal highway police (or federal, I don't remember exactly) in Brazil. And after the protests over the George Floyd case, I started to get more and more curious about the subject, but I didn't care much at first, but after some time, I became more interested in the subject. Yes, I'm in favor of the police, but I'm just like that, because of the reality of my country that simply can't face crime because of corruption, and when it still can, an innocent person is unfortunately killed.
Many defend thieves with the argument of: "They are victims of society, as they are oppressed by the system" or "They just lack education, as the state did not offer it to them" for me are completely meaningless arguments, but that, with recent events, I think cannot be ignored.
I wanted to know more people's opinions about, and of course, more views on the subject that, at least for me, has been well discussed recently. I would like you to comment on what can increase crime and of course also on whether, in your opinion, corruption can have any connection with police violence.

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Hiram Land
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Postby Hiram Land » Sat Jul 23, 2022 6:41 pm

It really depends, honestly, on the police's reputation and actions, potentially the cities and areas where they serve, and a few other factors. Where I live (NYC) our police department has a... not so good reputation, though in other areas police may be regarded as a helping hand - hell, such reputations can change and a police department might be considered a hero in the city's society even as decades before it wasn't given this reputation (see the Hong Kong police force as one example), so really it depends lol

disclaimer: i'm not here to defend a police force or say that one is bad and dumb, just saying it depends on factors that may be different the other town/county/country over
Last edited by Hiram Land on Sat Jul 23, 2022 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Meguminsk
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Postby Meguminsk » Sat Jul 23, 2022 6:43 pm

idk how it is in other countries but where I come from they are a necessary evil. sure, every once in a while, they stop you over for a fee for a violation you never did but they are also the ones keeping the peace, stopping crimes, etc.
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Atlantic Federalist Republic
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Postby Atlantic Federalist Republic » Sat Jul 23, 2022 6:45 pm

Hiram Land wrote:It really depends, honestly, on the police's reputation and actions, potentially the cities and areas where they serve, and a few other factors. Where I live (NYC) our police department has a... not so good reputation, though in other areas police may be regarded as a helping hand - hell, such reputations can change and a police department might be considered a hero in the city's society even as decades before it wasn't given this reputation (see the Hong Kong police force as one example), so really it depends lol

True, it really depends. Well, an example here in Brazil is São Paulo, I think many there, look up to the police with good eyes, for the recent police actions arresting kidnappers. While here in my state (Pará) the police are very corrupt, and for you to pass some inspection, just introduce yourself as a relative of a police officer, or, "get the foot of the plant wet" (BRIBERY)

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Atlantic Federalist Republic
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Postby Atlantic Federalist Republic » Sat Jul 23, 2022 6:45 pm

Meguminsk wrote:idk how it is in other countries but where I come from they are a necessary evil. sure, every once in a while, they stop you over for a fee for a violation you never did but they are also the ones keeping the peace, stopping crimes, etc.

True, same here lol

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Terrorist Group
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Postby Terrorist Group » Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:06 pm

Hiram Land wrote:It really depends, honestly, on the police's reputation and actions, potentially the cities and areas where they serve, and a few other factors. Where I live (NYC) our police department has a... not so good reputation, though in other areas police may be regarded as a helping hand - hell, such reputations can change and a police department might be considered a hero in the city's society even as decades before it wasn't given this reputation (see the Hong Kong police force as one example), so really it depends lol

disclaimer: i'm not here to defend a police force or say that one is bad and dumb, just saying it depends on factors that may be different the other town/county/country over


Agreed. The term “police” is also somewhat vague, given we can define “police” as a force merely keeping the peace in an area, keeping a peace equivalent to tyranny, or somewhere in between. If we use the Oxford Languages definition, which defines police as “the civil force of a national or local government, responsible for the prevention and detection of crime and the maintenance of public order”, then I would not consider them villains, but the term is, again, ambiguous.
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:09 pm

I like the police. They maintain law and order.

Sometimes they make mistakes but as institutions, they primarily stop/deter crime and unacceptable levels of civil unrest. If I had better physical stats, I would consider joining.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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The Kingdom of the Three Isles
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Postby The Kingdom of the Three Isles » Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:14 pm

Really depends where you are. In some places, the police are seen as a tool used by some dictator to keep control over their subjects or the police force in itself is corrupt, but other times, the police are seen as heroes, dedicating their time and lives for justice and peace.
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The Kingdom of the Three Isles
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Postby The Kingdom of the Three Isles » Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:14 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote: If I had better physical stats, I would consider joining.

Same here
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Hiram Land
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Postby Hiram Land » Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:15 pm

Terrorist Group wrote:
Hiram Land wrote:It really depends, honestly, on the police's reputation and actions, potentially the cities and areas where they serve, and a few other factors. Where I live (NYC) our police department has a... not so good reputation, though in other areas police may be regarded as a helping hand - hell, such reputations can change and a police department might be considered a hero in the city's society even as decades before it wasn't given this reputation (see the Hong Kong police force as one example), so really it depends lol

disclaimer: i'm not here to defend a police force or say that one is bad and dumb, just saying it depends on factors that may be different the other town/county/country over


Agreed. The term “police” is also somewhat vague, given we can define “police” as a force merely keeping the peace in an area, keeping a peace equivalent to tyranny, or somewhere in between. If we use the Oxford Languages definition, which defines police as “the civil force of a national or local government, responsible for the prevention and detection of crime and the maintenance of public order”, then I would not consider them villains, but the term is, again, ambiguous.

That definition can also essentially apply to the military too y'know.

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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:41 pm

Bad.

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Terminus Station
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Postby Terminus Station » Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:43 pm

Cops are all the bullies who got all Cs on their report cards and peaked in high-school. If they weren't they wouldn't be cops.

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Postby Phytia » Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:49 pm

The neo-liberal governments seems to have a spate of dwindling authority of late.

Their only means of convincing the growing ranks of the opposition is to use force: the police.

This means the police are - in various countries - heavily politicised. And that is a huge problem. Once the police is no longer neutral, anybody who doesn´t already agree with the neo-liberals is going to limit their interactions with law enforcement, and consider private actions (vigilatism). And for some, it will be a small step from considering to practicing.

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Postby Big Jim P » Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:53 pm

That depends entirely on the individual officer(s).
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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:57 pm

Big Jim P wrote:That depends entirely on the individual officer(s).


^This.

The world isn't all black and white, and the cops are not some kind of hivemind. They are people, and people can be both good and bad.
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Postby Alcala-Cordel » Sat Jul 23, 2022 8:18 pm

USS Monitor wrote:
Big Jim P wrote:That depends entirely on the individual officer(s).


^This.

The world isn't all black and white, and the cops are not some kind of hivemind. They are people, and people can be both good and bad.

...but they did sign up to enforce a fundamentally racist system, intentionally or not.

To go with a dramatic example, would you consider it fair to say that people who willingly join the Taliban are villains?
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Postby American Legionaries » Sat Jul 23, 2022 8:29 pm

Alcala-Cordel wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:
^This.

The world isn't all black and white, and the cops are not some kind of hivemind. They are people, and people can be both good and bad.

...but they did sign up to enforce a fundamentally racist system, intentionally or not.

To go with a dramatic example, would you consider it fair to say that people who willingly join the Taliban are villains?


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Laeden
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Postby Laeden » Sat Jul 23, 2022 8:34 pm

Poucas vezes na minha vida eu vi um tema tão importante ser tratado de maneira tão superficial

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Abarri
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Postby Abarri » Sat Jul 23, 2022 8:45 pm

Divided opinion. It depends.

This ain't some 1980s cartoon.

I fail to sympathize with the police when they (esp. the higher officials) start lambasting human rights advocates.

Granted, there must be lawful respectful ones, although I personally do not know any cop... That is, I don't know any acquaintances from my loose social circle who joined the force.
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Terrorist Group
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Terrorist Group » Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:29 pm

Hiram Land wrote:
Terrorist Group wrote:
Agreed. The term “police” is also somewhat vague, given we can define “police” as a force merely keeping the peace in an area, keeping a peace equivalent to tyranny, or somewhere in between. If we use the Oxford Languages definition, which defines police as “the civil force of a national or local government, responsible for the prevention and detection of crime and the maintenance of public order”, then I would not consider them villains, but the term is, again, ambiguous.

That definition can also essentially apply to the military too y'know.

Oh, and you're not the only Particracy fan ;)


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Bistritza
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Postby Bistritza » Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:38 pm

I'll give you my 2 cents on this just gotta deal with this one first:

Phytia wrote:The neo-liberal governments seems to have a spate of dwindling authority of late.
Their only means of convincing the growing ranks of the opposition is to use force: the police.
This means the police are - in various countries - heavily politicised. And that is a huge problem. Once the police is no longer neutral, anybody who doesn´t already agree with the neo-liberals is going to limit their interactions with law enforcement, and consider private actions (vigilatism). And for some, it will be a small step from considering to practicing.


Oh yeah haha nooo I know what you're trying to do again. ''We are the opposition, they're clearly targeting us and only us specifically.'' Now to tell you why that's a load of chicanery,




ASSUMING, that by the term 'police' you mean low-ranking Law Enforcement Officers;
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El Lazaro
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Postby El Lazaro » Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:58 pm

In theory? They’re the best way to protect the rights of citizens. In practice? They’re often not very good at doing it. The problem is with the circumstances surrounding and the culture within law enforcement; crudely put, the prize of assaulting racial minorities with little to no legal repercussions after a brief training period doesn’t exactly attract the “best and brightest” candidates. Or in other countries, shit pay, no oversight, and endemic corruption means there’s a thin line between cops and crooks. Generally speaking, police need a lot less power and a lot more professionalism.

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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:03 pm

USS Monitor wrote:
Big Jim P wrote:That depends entirely on the individual officer(s).


^This.

The world isn't all black and white, and the cops are not some kind of hivemind. They are people, and people can be both good and bad.

If you work for a system that is fundamentally broken to it's core then it doesn't matter if there are good individuals. The argument you both are making is a deflection to solely blame individuals for the crimes of a system designed to protect and encourage those individuals. Any point to be argued here isn't about individuals, it is about systems and institutions.

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Radiatia
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Postby Radiatia » Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:07 pm

It really depends on where you live.

In my part of the world I'd say about 95% hero and 5% villain - generally they're good, but there are definitely some incompetent morons out there as well as a few who are just sadistic and corrupt. But such cases are a small minority and on the whole I support the police.

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Terrorist Group
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Terrorist Group » Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:38 pm

Hiram Land wrote:
Terrorist Group wrote:
Agreed. The term “police” is also somewhat vague, given we can define “police” as a force merely keeping the peace in an area, keeping a peace equivalent to tyranny, or somewhere in between. If we use the Oxford Languages definition, which defines police as “the civil force of a national or local government, responsible for the prevention and detection of crime and the maintenance of public order”, then I would not consider them villains, but the term is, again, ambiguous.

That definition can also essentially apply to the military too y'know.


True, given I created an overly simple and low-quality definition. That’s why I added the Oxford Languages definition.

Heloin wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:
^This.

The world isn't all black and white, and the cops are not some kind of hivemind. They are people, and people can be both good and bad.

If you work for a system that is fundamentally broken to it's core then it doesn't matter if there are good individuals. The argument you both are making is a deflection to solely blame individuals for the crimes of a system designed to protect and encourage those individuals. Any point to be argued here isn't about individuals, it is about systems and institutions.


Besides their ability to use violence, I don’t think the police as a system are broken. Most police systems are, allowing corruption and unnecessary violence among other things, but to apply that to the police as a whole is interesting, and in my opinion, is incorrect. A large nation will need at least some form of law enforcement to punish criminals and protect civilians, whether that be a paid police force, a volunteer force, or something different.
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