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Is it morally correct to dislike ones parents for creation?

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Laka Strolistandiler
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Is it morally correct to dislike ones parents for creation?

Postby Laka Strolistandiler » Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:20 pm

I believe that this is an interesting philosophical question that touches on subjects of natalism and antinatalism and would really like to see the opinions of NSG on the matter.

The question I am asking is this: are the parents responsible or even potentially in the wrong for the act of creation of life itself, if said life brings mostly misery? I believe that this can be boiled down to the question of the responsibility itself- and if a person can and should be judged for actions results of which one may not truly understand. After all when people conceive children they rarely concern themselves with the question if a child is truly going to enjoy the life overall and what said child will bring to their life.

David Benatar’s argument of assymetry between pain and pleasure can be also relevant to the discussion I believe.

So, what are your thoughts regarding this matter? Is the act of creation of new life morally correct or not?
I am not a Russian but a Cameroonian born in this POS.
An autocratic monarchy with elements of aristocracy which is militaristic to the point of suicidal. Nuclear armed ready to use this weapon on any agressor or itself to prevent capture. Ruled over by a combination of medieval-ish thinking of workers and peasants and incredibly hierarchical society. A British-ish colonial empire incorporating some partially democratic nations who just want some WMD’s
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Page
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Postby Page » Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:28 pm

I am neither antinatalist nor natalist. It is my view that any given birth has an unknown utility at the onset, that you are rolling the dice. Though the asymmetry argument is perhaps valid because if you got to flip a coin and if heads one guy would get a million dollars but if tails another guy would be flayed alive, in my view it is unethical to flip the coin.

But this world I think can be changed in ways as to increase the overall average utility of birth. Both by conventionally agreed upon means like protecting the environment and making civilization sustainable and ending war, and I have more radical ideas. It is my belief that assisted suicide should be accessible to everyone, albeit with a waiting period in some cases so that the impulsively suicidal have a chance to change their minds. Were it easy to end one's life, then it would be safer to create new life.

I do feel that the world is getting worse and that the utility of birth is on a downward trend, which reinforces my decision to be childfree though I was childfree in the first place just because I don't want the responsibility, I want a chill low stress life.
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Postby The Black Forrest » Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:34 pm

Meh. Getting upset at something you can’t change?…..not worth the effort. What’s done is done. What you do with yourself is all the matters….
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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:38 pm

To a degree, yes. If I were to create a child for the explicit purpose of having it suffer and die prematurely after torture, I certainly can be considered a bad guy.
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Postby Page » Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:54 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:Meh. Getting upset at something you can’t change?…..not worth the effort. What’s done is done. What you do with yourself is all the matters….


True, what's done is done, but it's not like it's easy to check out. I don't mean that only in the suicide way, also in the sense that the vast, vast majority of people don't have the means to pack up their shit and try out life in a different place either. There are no frontiers anymore, no proverbial west.

Each and every one of us grew up to find out that our bodies are the property of capricious strangers who make decisions that can turn our lives upside down without ever meeting us. What's done is done but the situation is ongoing.
I am an internationalist, geolibertarian anarcho-futurist with syncretic egoist and Marxist tendencies. I consider authoritarianism to be intrinsically and irrevocably evil regardless of the authoritarians' intentions or economic inclinations. I do not recognize any law, government, border, or claim to private property.

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Terminus Station
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Postby Terminus Station » Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:03 am

Yes. Nobody consents to being born. Its a decision made for us.

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Laka Strolistandiler
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Postby Laka Strolistandiler » Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:20 am

Page wrote:I am neither antinatalist nor natalist. It is my view that any given birth has an unknown utility at the onset, that you are rolling the dice. Though the asymmetry argument is perhaps valid because if you got to flip a coin and if heads one guy would get a million dollars but if tails another guy would be flayed alive, in my view it is unethical to flip the coin.

But this world I think can be changed in ways as to increase the overall average utility of birth. Both by conventionally agreed upon means like protecting the environment and making civilization sustainable and ending war, and I have more radical ideas. It is my belief that assisted suicide should be accessible to everyone, albeit with a waiting period in some cases so that the impulsively suicidal have a chance to change their minds. Were it easy to end one's life, then it would be safer to create new life.

I do feel that the world is getting worse and that the utility of birth is on a downward trend, which reinforces my decision to be childfree though I was childfree in the first place just because I don't want the responsibility, I want a chill low stress life.

I believe that societal attitude towards suicide should be addressed too- because although it is a permanent solution to a temporary problems (in most cases), I’d argue that for me (clarifying that it’s only ablut me because I do not want to violate site rules) it is truly the easier way out.
The Black Forrest wrote:Meh. Getting upset at something you can’t change?…..not worth the effort. What’s done is done. What you do with yourself is all the matters….

It’s more the case of getting upset over the fact that you have to life and are forced into responsibilities which you cannot change. Well for me and people that I’ve encountered with similar issues
I am not a Russian but a Cameroonian born in this POS.
An autocratic monarchy with elements of aristocracy which is militaristic to the point of suicidal. Nuclear armed ready to use this weapon on any agressor or itself to prevent capture. Ruled over by a combination of medieval-ish thinking of workers and peasants and incredibly hierarchical society. A British-ish colonial empire incorporating some partially democratic nations who just want some WMD’s
Quote of the day:They forced the life on me. I do not want to live. My life brings happiness to no one
Pronouns up to your choice but I’d prefer to be referred to as she/her.
I reserve the right to /stillme any one-liners if my post is at least two lines long

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Laka Strolistandiler
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Postby Laka Strolistandiler » Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:43 am

Bump
I am not a Russian but a Cameroonian born in this POS.
An autocratic monarchy with elements of aristocracy which is militaristic to the point of suicidal. Nuclear armed ready to use this weapon on any agressor or itself to prevent capture. Ruled over by a combination of medieval-ish thinking of workers and peasants and incredibly hierarchical society. A British-ish colonial empire incorporating some partially democratic nations who just want some WMD’s
Quote of the day:They forced the life on me. I do not want to live. My life brings happiness to no one
Pronouns up to your choice but I’d prefer to be referred to as she/her.
I reserve the right to /stillme any one-liners if my post is at least two lines long

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Drongonia
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Postby Drongonia » Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:46 am

No, nihilism is cringe anyway - but barring that...

Your parents didn't choose to have you. At least, not the version of you that exists as you are. They could have never known you'd be a nihilistic loser who thinks their life is genuinely that worthless that you'd be annoyed at the mere facet of existence. Maybe if they did they'd have chosen to have sex in a different position or on a different day of the week or something.

(This post directed at people who believe it is morally correct to dislike their parents for being created)
Last edited by Drongonia on Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Laka Strolistandiler
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Postby Laka Strolistandiler » Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:59 am

Drongonia wrote:No, nihilism is cringe anyway - but barring that...

Your parents didn't choose to have you. At least, not the version of you that exists as you are. They could have never known you'd be a nihilistic loser who thinks their life is genuinely that worthless that you'd be annoyed at the mere facet of existence. Maybe if they did they'd have chosen to have sex in a different position or on a different day of the week or something.

(This post directed at people who believe it is morally correct to dislike their parents for being created)

And where did I say that I am a nihilist? I am depressed and I am a looser, yes, but hardly a nihilistic one. My life is worthless because I make it worthless, simple as. Because it brings primarily suffering to those around me and because if I was nonexistent life would be much better for everyone including people close to me. Hell, if I’d die life would be better for them now!
I am not a Russian but a Cameroonian born in this POS.
An autocratic monarchy with elements of aristocracy which is militaristic to the point of suicidal. Nuclear armed ready to use this weapon on any agressor or itself to prevent capture. Ruled over by a combination of medieval-ish thinking of workers and peasants and incredibly hierarchical society. A British-ish colonial empire incorporating some partially democratic nations who just want some WMD’s
Quote of the day:They forced the life on me. I do not want to live. My life brings happiness to no one
Pronouns up to your choice but I’d prefer to be referred to as she/her.
I reserve the right to /stillme any one-liners if my post is at least two lines long

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Postby Heloin » Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:04 am

I’m not angry for being alive. I’m only angry that I wasn’t something like a giant tortoise.
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Aymes
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Postby Aymes » Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:07 am

I am happy that I’m here.

I can’t believe my luck that I’m alive.

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Fractalnavel
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Postby Fractalnavel » Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:14 am

There's an interesting variation of this where the context is having children in a generation ship. The answer to the question, as already pointed out, depends on the context, real or perceived. Was also thinking recently how multi-generational slavery could exist. Or other lives in desperate situations. If humans valued their lives somewhat less, it seems, that same life might be worth more. Or maybe it's actually valuing life more that would keep it from being started or spent in poor contexts.

Muddled thoughts.

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Portsekuro
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Postby Portsekuro » Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:38 am

I don't see why natalism or antinatalism need to be treated as some universal moral law. If you're happy that you were born, that's great - if you wish you hadn't been, that's completely up to you.

For what purposes would you declare antinatalism a moral imperative? If you accept that premise, do you then have a duty to prevent as many people from being born as possible? Should you use violence to force people to refrain from having children against their will? Is it even justified to kill people if it means preventing them from suffering by being alive?

(By the same token, I do think that natalism has a coercive effect in society. People are pressured to conform to the institution of the nuclear family in order to produce and raise children - women in particular are affected by this as they generally are expected to do most of the work when it comes to childrearing. I think restrictions on abortion can be viewed in this way as well.)
Last edited by Portsekuro on Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Haganham » Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:47 am

Not unless they did so when they unable, or unwilling, to provide a good environment for a child to grow up in. So much outside of that home life is outside of their control and is unpredictable. Few of the troubles the world has now were foreseeable when I was born, for example.
If you want to blame people for your life being miserable then start with the people who made that misery, rather then the people who gave you life.
Last edited by Haganham on Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ethel mermania » Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:40 am

I think its fine to hate parents for being shitty parents or crappy human beings in general.

For the fact that you were born? At best its a sign of mental illness that probably should not go untreated.
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Postby Merconitonitopia » Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:43 am

Terminus Station wrote:Yes. Nobody consents to being born. Its a decision made for us.

I'm happy that decision was made for me.

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Laka Strolistandiler
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Postby Laka Strolistandiler » Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:22 am

Portsekuro wrote:I don't see why natalism or antinatalism need to be treated as some universal moral law. If you're happy that you were born, that's great - if you wish you hadn't been, that's completely up to you.

For what purposes would you declare antinatalism a moral imperative? If you accept that premise, do you then have a duty to prevent as many people from being born as possible? Should you use violence to force people to refrain from having children against their will? Is it even justified to kill people if it means preventing them from suffering by being alive?

(By the same token, I do think that natalism has a coercive effect in society. People are pressured to conform to the institution of the nuclear family in order to produce and raise children - women in particular are affected by this as they generally are expected to do most of the work when it comes to childrearing. I think restrictions on abortion can be viewed in this way as well.)

I would argue that pressure into nuclear family can harm men as much as women- men are usually expected to be “the producers” and “the defenders” of the family and thus are expected to work harder and earn more financially
Last edited by Laka Strolistandiler on Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
I am not a Russian but a Cameroonian born in this POS.
An autocratic monarchy with elements of aristocracy which is militaristic to the point of suicidal. Nuclear armed ready to use this weapon on any agressor or itself to prevent capture. Ruled over by a combination of medieval-ish thinking of workers and peasants and incredibly hierarchical society. A British-ish colonial empire incorporating some partially democratic nations who just want some WMD’s
Quote of the day:They forced the life on me. I do not want to live. My life brings happiness to no one
Pronouns up to your choice but I’d prefer to be referred to as she/her.
I reserve the right to /stillme any one-liners if my post is at least two lines long

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Postby Thethen » Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:23 am

Is everything okay?
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Laka Strolistandiler
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Postby Laka Strolistandiler » Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:24 am

Thethen wrote:Is everything okay?

As you can probably guess it’s not but this is not relevant to the topic of the discussion
I am not a Russian but a Cameroonian born in this POS.
An autocratic monarchy with elements of aristocracy which is militaristic to the point of suicidal. Nuclear armed ready to use this weapon on any agressor or itself to prevent capture. Ruled over by a combination of medieval-ish thinking of workers and peasants and incredibly hierarchical society. A British-ish colonial empire incorporating some partially democratic nations who just want some WMD’s
Quote of the day:They forced the life on me. I do not want to live. My life brings happiness to no one
Pronouns up to your choice but I’d prefer to be referred to as she/her.
I reserve the right to /stillme any one-liners if my post is at least two lines long

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Thethen
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Postby Thethen » Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:29 am

Ethel mermania wrote:I think its fine to hate parents for being shitty parents or crappy human beings in general.

For the fact that you were born? At best its a sign of mental illness that probably should not go untreated.

Not mental illness, more depression probably. None of us are psychiatrists, though, so this should be left to the professionals.
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ALL TGs will be deleted after 24 hours to prevent clutter, except for ones deemed important enough for archiving.

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President: Poloric Albam (until after the presidential election)
GENA/WA Representative: Gerald Erepant
Des-Bal wrote:Anarchism is great, it's the richest environment for conquest. Just imagine, all you need to do is round up some weapons and some buddies to hold them and you too can be a warlord!
Emotional Support Crocodile wrote:Observing US politics from afar is like watching a stupid kid running into traffic, you try to warn them but they still have a big stupid grin as the bus hits them.

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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:45 am

Thethen wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:I think its fine to hate parents for being shitty parents or crappy human beings in general.

For the fact that you were born? At best its a sign of mental illness that probably should not go untreated.

Not mental illness, more depression probably. None of us are psychiatrists, though, so this should be left to the professionals.

Depression is a mental illness.
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The Holy Therns
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Postby The Holy Therns » Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:51 am

I would suggest a therapist might be a better person to discuss this with.
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Postby Farnhamia » Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:21 pm

Drongonia wrote:No, nihilism is cringe anyway - but barring that...

Your parents didn't choose to have you. At least, not the version of you that exists as you are. They could have never known you'd be a nihilistic loser who thinks their life is genuinely that worthless that you'd be annoyed at the mere facet of existence. Maybe if they did they'd have chosen to have sex in a different position or on a different day of the week or something.

(This post directed at people who believe it is morally correct to dislike their parents for being created)

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Postby Existential Cats » Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:30 pm

Is it "morally correct"? Well for one, I'm a relativist, so I don't believe in morality to begin with. But even if I did, the whole matter of reproduction would seem to me to be entirely beyond morality, since it's something plants and animals and cells and anything we call life does. It's purely instinctual. You can be grateful or angry at your parents for bringing you into the world, but they weren't fulfilling or defying some moral imperative.

Terminus Station wrote:Yes. Nobody consents to being born. Its a decision made for us.

I don't find this argument convincing, as prior to conception, there was no "you" to begin with. It's not consensual or un-consensual, it's an act of creation.
Last edited by Existential Cats on Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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