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Universal Basic Income UBI - discussion, ideas

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Sumadia-Belgrade
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Universal Basic Income UBI - discussion, ideas

Postby Sumadia-Belgrade » Tue May 17, 2022 2:02 pm

First of all, I'm not sure if there's already thread like this, if there is, I'd ask administrators to move my posts to the adequate section.

Well, I'm kind of supportive of Universal Basic Income (UBI) idea, so I thought about opening a thread about the idea.

My version of UBI would be similar to that of the american politician and entrepreneur Andrew Yang, who argued that people need some kind of base in their life, so they could build their future with the chance of not constantly thinking and being bothered by the basic needs of living, eating and having clothes.
I also support excluding other government programs like healthcare, state provided pensions, government agencies... basically whatever we agree that we don't need as a collective community, in turn to finance UBI program.

I'll discuss this further down the thread, so I invite you all to join discussion and provide your opinions (as long as you keep it civil, please) and sources on this topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS9wOdenEys - Andrew Yang explains UBI in short on Joe Rogan podcast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMsKLVmZJK8 - Discussion with Andrew Yang on his view about UBI and other socio-economic problems of the USA.

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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Tue May 17, 2022 2:05 pm

In time UBI will happen as we will have more people then jobs. Especially when considering AI and robotics.
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Postby Saiwania » Tue May 17, 2022 2:06 pm

It flat out doesn't work from what I can tell. Even the pitiful covid stimulus contributed to inflation we're seeing now, and it wasn't much that was actually given out on an individual basis. The larger economy has to be backed up by productive machines that'll do all of the work, if it isn't people. But lots of jobs can still only be done by humans.
Last edited by Saiwania on Tue May 17, 2022 2:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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The Reformed American Republic
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Postby The Reformed American Republic » Tue May 17, 2022 2:09 pm

Saiwania wrote:It flat out doesn't work from what I can tell. Even the pitiful covid stimulus contributed to inflation we're seeing now, and it wasn't much that was actually given out on an individual basis. The larger economy has to be backed up by productive machines that'll do all of the work, if it isn't people. But lots of jobs can still only be done by humans.

Inflation is caused by corporate profits and price gouging, not the stimulus.
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Postby Onionist Randosia » Tue May 17, 2022 2:10 pm

I’ve actually been thinking lately that a UBI policy wouldn’t be a bad idea. Issues would need to be written so people could actually get it though.
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Macadia
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Postby Macadia » Tue May 17, 2022 2:26 pm

In the Democratic Primaries, I saw Andrew Yang as an appealing younger option, but then he made UBI this big part of his campaign, I couldn’t stand him after that, I dislike the idea severely, that the government taxpayer, the middle-class (or slightly upper middle class) hard-working American should have to provide for those who are either in a slightly more tight financial position or are just lazy and don’t contribute to our society. Now, UBI for older or disabled people who can’t work is a very different, story, but that’s what already established welfare programs are for.
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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Tue May 17, 2022 3:02 pm

The Reformed American Republic wrote:Inflation is caused by corporate profits and price gouging, not the stimulus.


The evidence there is, isn't bearing this out. There is a ton of demand that isn't being met because of supply chain problems and shortages. When there is too much money chasing too few goods, of course what is for sale is going to go up in price.

It was pretty much a massive mistake for the world's major economies to have shut down because of COVID. The disease never went away anyways. North Korea is finally getting it despite their goal having been to have 0 cases of it and be 100% isolationist haven that isn't effected by it. They allegedly had the opportunity to get their population vaccinated ahead of time, but DPRK leadership said no and are now regretting it.
Last edited by Saiwania on Tue May 17, 2022 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Risottia » Wed May 18, 2022 12:47 am

The Black Forrest wrote:In time UBI will happen as we will have more people then jobs. Especially when considering AI and robotics.

It is time to have a negative demographic growth.
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Sacred Earth
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Postby Sacred Earth » Wed May 18, 2022 12:53 am

Meh, so-so
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The Reformed American Republic
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Postby The Reformed American Republic » Thu May 19, 2022 7:34 am

Saiwania wrote:
The Reformed American Republic wrote:Inflation is caused by corporate profits and price gouging, not the stimulus.


The evidence there is, isn't bearing this out. There is a ton of demand that isn't being met because of supply chain problems and shortages. When there is too much money chasing too few goods, of course what is for sale is going to go up in price.

It was pretty much a massive mistake for the world's major economies to have shut down because of COVID. The disease never went away anyways. North Korea is finally getting it despite their goal having been to have 0 cases of it and be 100% isolationist haven that isn't effected by it. They allegedly had the opportunity to get their population vaccinated ahead of time, but DPRK leadership said no and are now regretting it.

Yes, that contributed to it too, but that is still not due to the stimulus either. Giving people money did not stop the supply chain.
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Sumadia-Belgrade
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Postby Sumadia-Belgrade » Thu May 26, 2022 1:16 pm

https://2020.yang2020.com/policies/the-freedom-dividend/

"Andrew would implement the Freedom Dividend, a universal basic income of $1,000/month, $12,000 a year, for every American adult over the age of 18. This is independent of one’s work status or any other factor. This would enable all Americans to pay their bills, educate themselves, start businesses, be more creative, stay healthy, relocate for work, spend time with their children, take care of loved ones, and have a real stake in the future.

Other than regular increases to keep up the cost of living, any change to the Freedom Dividend would require a constitutional amendment.

It will be illegal to lend or borrow against one’s Dividend.

A Universal Basic Income at this level would permanently grow the economy by 12.56 to 13.10 percent—or about $2.5 trillion by 2025—and it would increase the labor force by 4.5 to 4.7 million people. Putting money into people’s hands and keeping it there would be a perpetual boost and support to job growth and the economy.
"

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Sumadia-Belgrade
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Postby Sumadia-Belgrade » Thu May 26, 2022 1:19 pm

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/9/5/20849020/alaska-permanent-fund-universal-basic-income

"Alaska gives each resident a check every year. It’s cut poverty — and warped the state’s politics.

...the largest and longest-running UBI experiment in America — Alaska’s Permanent Fund Dividend (PFD)

To supporters of a UBI, the Alaska PFD offers a tantalizing glimpse of what a universal basic income can do. Thanks to the PFD, crippling poverty is scant in Alaska. A 2016 study by the University of Alaska found it reduced poverty up to 20 percent."

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Sumadia-Belgrade
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Postby Sumadia-Belgrade » Mon May 30, 2022 1:11 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbWv_1NbWyw - South Korean UBI experiment.

Gyeonggi province, nearly 200.000 inhabitants are part of UBI project. They receive around 220$ every 3 months, without any obligations or checks.
It started during the Coronavirus pandemic, as a form of government assistance, where there was only one catch, that the inhabitants had to spend the money in local businesses, so to stimulate the regional economy. It has since brought the attention on national level, also because of South Korea's high technological advancement and further use of robotics in job sector.

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Postby USS Monitor » Mon May 30, 2022 3:22 pm

Sumadia-Belgrade wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbWv_1NbWyw - South Korean UBI experiment.

Gyeonggi province, nearly 200.000 inhabitants are part of UBI project. They receive around 220$ every 3 months, without any obligations or checks.
It started during the Coronavirus pandemic, as a form of government assistance, where there was only one catch, that the inhabitants had to spend the money in local businesses, so to stimulate the regional economy. It has since brought the attention on national level, also because of South Korea's high technological advancement and further use of robotics in job sector.


If you're looking for RL examples where it's been tried, some Indian tribes use profits from casinos to pay a stipend to their members.

It's been helpful for some people, but has also led to some bickering about who should get a slice of the pie.
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The Jamesian Republic
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Postby The Jamesian Republic » Mon May 30, 2022 3:25 pm

Georgists suggest using an LVT (Land Value Tax) to fund a UBI.

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Mtwara
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Postby Mtwara » Mon May 30, 2022 3:29 pm

Nothing wrong with a minimum safety net to stop people getting hurt when they are down on their luck, but I don't like the idea of a universal income. If you already have a decent job then what does it really achieve?

I personally don't think that many people will be unemployed in the future, somebody will find something for them to do if they can't figure it out themselves.
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Bonggongland
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Postby Bonggongland » Mon May 30, 2022 3:57 pm

It's inevitable to an extent. In my view it would be much more practical to go to a universal credit first and completely overgaul the welfare safety system to just one system and make it needs based in order to massively cut down on bureaucracy as well as handle the long tern labour shortages. Expand the Earned Income Tax Credit or implement similar nehative income taxes for workers as a counterweight.

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Lloronesia
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Postby Lloronesia » Mon May 30, 2022 7:58 pm

UBI is a promising program, considering there have been positive results in experiments. The only thing I really think about is its execution. If it is implemented, it should be adjusted. I don't think some people deserve it, like those who make a significant income should not receive a UBI.

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Sordhau
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Postby Sordhau » Mon May 30, 2022 9:17 pm

I believe that it's good idea in theory, but it's not one that society can truly benefit from unless AI and automation have made human employment in most sectors obsolete - which is something we're still very far off from.
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Tue May 31, 2022 3:07 am

I think it's a bad idea.
Better policies would be:
a nationwide minimum wage - and the State giving the minimum wage to those who are actively seeking a job (and not refusing offers on a whim).
retirements for workers, mandate by the State
universal single-payer healthcare
free daycare, kindergarten, schools and universities
massive social housing program for those below median income
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Kerwa
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Postby Kerwa » Tue May 31, 2022 3:33 am

As already said, it’s sort of inevitable as robots an AI will replace many workers. And a lot of people don’t do anything useful anyway.

Hopefully we also get AI instead of politicians. And for the lower 90% - maybe more - their smartphones can tell them what to do, so we won’t need schools.

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Dead Money
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Postby Dead Money » Tue May 31, 2022 7:57 am

We need UBI for yesterday

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Postby Survivors of Yekaterinburg » Tue May 31, 2022 8:43 am

Im a big fan of a UBI through negative income tax, funded through a progressive Land value tax. The function of the land determines the tax rate.

The absolute best thing about it is it removes minimum wage, comercial regulation and industrial relations laws.

It also defeats the taxation being theft as you are taxing scarcity instead of people. It's an actual ethical tax.

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Postby Ifreann » Tue May 31, 2022 9:13 am

The "problem" with UBI is that when people have their basic needs met, when people are assured that there will be a roof over their head and food on the table no matter what, then they are in a much stronger position to turn down a job. Employers would lose almost all of their power over existing employees and prospective hires. They would need to offer not only better wages, but better conditions. No one is going to destroy their body in an Amazon warehouse for any amount of money, not when they don't have to. And if people get a taste of control over their workplaces, they might find that they like it, and down that path lies socialism.
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Postby Hukhalia » Tue May 31, 2022 10:29 am

rendering the working class dependent on the bourgeois state as opposed to the bourgeoisie directly isn't the revolutionary idea some people seem to make it to be
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