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[DRAFT][Declaration] On Property and Realms

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.
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Klaus Devestatorie
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[DRAFT][Declaration] On Property and Realms

Postby Klaus Devestatorie » Mon May 16, 2022 6:55 am

The Security Council,

Affirming the importance of property and realms of regions and organisations beyond those that are assigned to all regions by default, which are often used for,

  • Governance of regions and organisations;
  • Socialisation and cultural events;
  • Military operations;
  • Historical archives of important regional affairs;
Aware that these properties and realms are sometimes damaged, destroyed, or otherwise rendered inaccessible due to the rogue actions of some individual nations;

Holding that such damage can take many forms, including but not limited to,

  • Gratuitous deletion of national representation, discussion and archives from property or realms;
  • Rendering property or realms inaccessible by intentionally changing the structure of such places to be inaccessible;
  • Rending property or realms undesirable to use by gratuitously filling such places with obscenity;
Remembering that damage of this nature inflicted upon the property and realms of regions in the past have often resulted in irreversable, generational cultural losses, and the functional death of many regions and organisations;

Acknowledging that long held standards have been in place across many regional communities, which hold that damaging or destroying property and realms are an act outside of what is accepted in global politics or warfare, such as the Convention on Offsite Property Security;

Advises regions and organisations to take practical security steps in order to protect themselves from nations that would seek to inflict destruction upon property and realms, and to proliferate resources that assist other regions and organisations to do the same;

Encourages regions to provide assistance beyond the norm to other communities that have experienced these actions, to help mitigate the damage of such actions;

Advocates for the total proscription of regional and organisational membership of nations responsible for the damage of property and realms;

Appeals to regions to share information with each other about those nations that are known to have undertaken damaging actions against the properties and realms of regions and organisations, even when it would be politically or strategically disadvantageous to do so;

Hereby declares the intention to drastically reduce, or eliminate outright, the practice of destruction of property and realms.


The Security Council,

Affirming the importance of property and realms of regions and organisations beyond those that are assigned to all regions by default, such as forums, chatrooms, tools, websites, and other localities;

Aware that these properties and realms are sometimes damaged, deleted, or otherwise rendered inaccessible due to the rogue actions of some individual nations;

Holding that such damage can take many forms, including but not limited to;

  • Deletion of individual nation accounts from property or realms;
  • Deletion of nation created content from property or realms;
  • Rendering property or realms inaccessible by intentionally changing the structure of such places to be inaccessible;
  • Rending property or realms inaccessible by spamming such places with obscene content;

Remembering that damage of this nature inflicted upon the property and realms of regions in the past have often resulted in irreversable, generational cultural losses, and the functional death of many regions and organisations;

Acknowledging that long held standards have been in place across many regional communities, which hold that damaging or destroying property and realms are an act outside of what is accepted in global politics or warfare, such as the Convention on Offsite Property, hosted by The East Pacific and ratified by many other regions;

Advises regions and organisations to take practical security steps in order to protect themselves from nations that would seek to inflict destruction upon property and realms, and to proliferate resources that assist other regions and organisations to do the same;

Encourages regions to provide assistance beyond the norm to other communities that have experienced these actions, to help mitigate the damage of such actions;

Appeals to regions to share information with each other about those nations that are known to have undertaken damaging actions against the properties and realms of regions and organisations, even when it would be politically or strategically disadvantageous to do so, and;

Hereby declares the desire to reaffirm the common standard held across much of the international community, to enable it to be shared to a wider audience of nations, regions and organisations.


I have, historically, invested a lot of time and effort into investigating offsite property destruction, as well as identifying and tracking individuals responsible for it. It's not an issue the way it used to be, which is fortunate- I think a lot of people and regions would be caught flat-footed if it became common again, and I suspect it would be a difficult and painstaking process to re-enforce the old standards across a much larger and diverse game than what we had 10-12 years ago.

Historically, most gameplay regions have turned to the Convention on Offsite Property for standards on this matter, but the convention has usually only been helpful for setting the standard on what to do with people who attack forums. The convention itself has rarely been officially ratified by many communities that relied on it, and has often been poorly understood. It has also had the deeply unwanted side effect of encouraging a small number of people to live out their supervillain fantasies, such as Rougiers, Forgery, Soviet Sindorin, etc. There's occasionally been efforts to replace it, but nothing has ever gotten off the ground.

With the advent of declarations, I would like to take the opportunity to propose a constructive document, to help provide future guidance on the matter. It very specifically does not go as far as COPS used to do; aside from the rule 3b difficulties, that kind of treaty works best as an opt-in document. Feedback is welcome; attempts to relitigate the old standards are much less so.
Last edited by Klaus Devestatorie on Fri May 20, 2022 3:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Tinhampton
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Postby Tinhampton » Mon May 16, 2022 7:00 am

What "common standard?" :P
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Klaus Devestatorie
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Postby Klaus Devestatorie » Mon May 16, 2022 7:04 am

Tinhampton wrote:What "common standard?" :P

And this is where it gets fiddly, and where I'm forced to confess I'll need help. :P
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Bormiar
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Postby Bormiar » Mon May 16, 2022 7:15 am

Klaus Devestatorie wrote:
Tinhampton wrote:What "common standard?" :P

And this is where it gets fiddly, and where I'm forced to confess I'll need help. :P


How about:

Hereby declares its disgust towards property destruction and its perpetrators, and reaffirms the proscription and punishment of perpetrators in order to prevent it.


Or

Hereby recommends this document as an opt-in guide for nations and regions wishing to prevent property destruction, and declares its disgust for the practice and its perpetrators.


Or something like that.

In general, I love this. It seems to me like exactly what declarations are for.

I didn't read it to closely, but in the "holding" clause, you need a colon, not a semicolon.
Last edited by Bormiar on Mon May 16, 2022 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Lenlyvit
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Postby Lenlyvit » Mon May 16, 2022 1:14 pm

Without getting too far into it, I would suggest asking for a mod ruling on "forums, chatrooms, tools, websites, and other localities;" in your first clause. The way it reads seems like it may be a rules violation, so better to ask than be sorry.
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Postby Fachumonn » Mon May 16, 2022 2:23 pm

Lenlyvit wrote:Without getting too far into it, I would suggest asking for a mod ruling on "forums, chatrooms, tools, websites, and other localities;" in your first clause. The way it reads seems like it may be a rules violation, so better to ask than be sorry.

Websites is definitely a smash into the 4th wall, and so is forums probably too.


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Lenlyvit
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Postby Lenlyvit » Mon May 16, 2022 2:27 pm

Fachumonn wrote:
Lenlyvit wrote:Without getting too far into it, I would suggest asking for a mod ruling on "forums, chatrooms, tools, websites, and other localities;" in your first clause. The way it reads seems like it may be a rules violation, so better to ask than be sorry.

Websites is definitely a smash into the 4th wall, and so is forums probably too.

There are certain instances where you can use the word forum, as long as you phrase it around the electronic entity. He might have to get a little creative with it, but it's possible to use.
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Bhang Bhang Duc
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Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Mon May 16, 2022 2:28 pm

Fachumonn wrote:
Lenlyvit wrote:Without getting too far into it, I would suggest asking for a mod ruling on "forums, chatrooms, tools, websites, and other localities;" in your first clause. The way it reads seems like it may be a rules violation, so better to ask than be sorry.

Websites is definitely a smash into the 4th wall, and so is forums probably too.

In this case yes as forums, by association, are the electronic type.
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Pierconium wrote:I see Funk as an opportunistic manipulator that utilises the means available to him to reach his goals. In other words, a nation after my own heart.

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Lenlyvit
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Postby Lenlyvit » Mon May 16, 2022 2:32 pm

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:
Fachumonn wrote:Websites is definitely a smash into the 4th wall, and so is forums probably too.

In this case yes as forums, by association, are the electronic type.

I see it the same way, hence why I brought up the wording in that clause. Now that I read a little more, I believe the "holding" clause will need a rewrite as well. It seems too electronic.
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Fachumonn
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Postby Fachumonn » Mon May 16, 2022 2:33 pm

Lenlyvit wrote:
Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:In this case yes as forums, by association, are the electronic type.

I see it the same way, hence why I brought up the wording in that clause. Now that I read a little more, I believe the "holding" clause will need a rewrite as well. It seems too electronic.

How? It says "forms" not "forums".


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Lenlyvit
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Postby Lenlyvit » Mon May 16, 2022 2:40 pm

Fachumonn wrote:
Lenlyvit wrote:I see it the same way, hence why I brought up the wording in that clause. Now that I read a little more, I believe the "holding" clause will need a rewrite as well. It seems too electronic.

How? It says "forms" not "forums".

Everything that's in the list section. I've bolded the parts I see:

"Deletion of individual nation accounts from property or realms;
Deletion of nation created content from property or realms;
Rendering property or realms inaccessible by intentionally changing the structure of such places to be inaccessible;
Rending property or realms inaccessible by spamming such places with obscene content;"
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Mon May 16, 2022 2:55 pm

This is so obviously a 2(a) violation that I must ask how the author deluded themselves into thinking otherwise.
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Fachumonn
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Postby Fachumonn » Mon May 16, 2022 2:57 pm

Lenlyvit wrote:
Fachumonn wrote:How? It says "forms" not "forums".

Everything that's in the list section. I've bolded the parts I see:

"Deletion of individual nation accounts from property or realms;
Deletion of nation created content from property or realms;
Rendering property or realms inaccessible by intentionally changing the structure of such places to be inaccessible;
Rending property or realms inaccessible by spamming such places with obscene content;"

Oh, I thought you meant the introductory clause, not the subclauses. Anyways, you're correct.


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Postby Comfed » Mon May 16, 2022 2:59 pm

Wallenburg wrote:This is so obviously a 2(a) violation that I must ask how the author deluded themselves into thinking otherwise.

Agreed. “nation accounts”, “spamming”, referencing COPS by name, really?
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Lenlyvit
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Postby Lenlyvit » Mon May 16, 2022 2:59 pm

Wallenburg wrote:This is so obviously a 2(a) violation that I must ask how the author deluded themselves into thinking otherwise.

I don't think Klaus has ever drafted a resolution before, but I could be wrong. It's hard the first time because you don't know the terminology to use.
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Postby Fachumonn » Mon May 16, 2022 3:00 pm

Comfed wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:This is so obviously a 2(a) violation that I must ask how the author deluded themselves into thinking otherwise.

Agreed. “nation accounts”, “spamming”, referencing COPS by name, really?

And websites too. That's blatant. Unless the OP thinks there are somehow "websites" on NS.


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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Mon May 16, 2022 3:12 pm

Lenlyvit wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:This is so obviously a 2(a) violation that I must ask how the author deluded themselves into thinking otherwise.

I don't think Klaus has ever drafted a resolution before, but I could be wrong. It's hard the first time because you don't know the terminology to use.

They've participated in the SC for years, since before I was here. They should know this.
I want to improve.
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Kiu Ghesik wrote:harris' interpretation of bidenism and subsequent establishment of a bidenist vanguard party to root out malarkey and revisionist elements in society was revisionist in and of itself and should never have been implemented.

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Bormiar
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Postby Bormiar » Mon May 16, 2022 3:22 pm

Wallenburg wrote:This is so obviously a 2(a) violation that I must ask how the author deluded themselves into thinking otherwise.


Wallenburg wrote:
Lenlyvit wrote:I don't think Klaus has ever drafted a resolution before, but I could be wrong. It's hard the first time because you don't know the terminology to use.

They've participated in the SC for years, since before I was here. They should know this.

Why does that make you so upset?
Last edited by Bormiar on Mon May 16, 2022 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Minskiev » Mon May 16, 2022 7:05 pm

I seem to recall "Gameside Vizier" being illegal, even if it was the official title, for referencing a game. Perhaps the same is true for "Convention on Offsite Property"?

I may fully well be wrong however.
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Postby Comfed » Mon May 16, 2022 7:09 pm

Okay, I've bolded all the things that look illegal to me.
Klaus Devestatorie wrote:
The Security Council,

Affirming the importance of property and realms of regions and organisations beyond those that are assigned to all regions by default, such as forums, chatrooms, tools, websites, and other localities;

Aware that these properties and realms are sometimes damaged, deleted, or otherwise rendered inaccessible due to the rogue actions of some individual nations;

Holding that such damage can take many forms, including but not limited to;

  • Deletion of individual nation accounts from property or realms;
  • Deletion of nation created content from property or realms;
  • Rendering property or realms inaccessible by intentionally changing the structure of such places to be inaccessible;
  • Rending property or realms inaccessible by spamming such places with obscene content;

Remembering that damage of this nature inflicted upon the property and realms of regions in the past have often resulted in irreversable, generational cultural losses, and the functional death of many regions and organisations;

Acknowledging that long held standards have been in place across many regional communities, which hold that damaging or destroying property and realms are an act outside of what is accepted in global politics or warfare, such as the Convention on Offsite Property, hosted by The East Pacific and ratified by many other regions;

Advises regions and organisations to take practical security steps in order to protect themselves from nations that would seek to inflict destruction upon property and realms, and to proliferate resources that assist other regions and organisations to do the same;

Encourages regions to provide assistance beyond the norm to other communities that have experienced these actions, to help mitigate the damage of such actions;

Appeals to regions to share information with each other about those nations that are known to have undertaken damaging actions against the properties and realms of regions and organisations, even when it would be politically or strategically disadvantageous to do so, and;

Hereby declares the desire to reaffirm the common standard held across much of the international community, to enable it to be shared to a wider audience of nations, regions and organisations.

I will say, though, that I consider this to be a noble effort and I applaud you for undertaking it - this could hardly be easy to write without falling afoul of the rule.
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Bhang Bhang Duc
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Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Tue May 17, 2022 2:53 am

COPS was written by TAO and hosted by The West Pacific, not the East. This I remember as many of us were involved in reviewing TAO’s work on our forums.

Edit: forgot to say I applaud the intention of this draft. Unfortunately it’s running slap bang into the SC rules in its present form.
Last edited by Bhang Bhang Duc on Tue May 17, 2022 4:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Pierconium wrote:I see Funk as an opportunistic manipulator that utilises the means available to him to reach his goals. In other words, a nation after my own heart.

RiderSyl wrote:If an enchantress made it so one raid could bring about world peace, Unibot would ask raiders to just sign a petition instead.

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Klaus Devestatorie
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Postby Klaus Devestatorie » Tue May 17, 2022 4:34 am

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:COPS was written by TAO and hosted by The West Pacific, not the East. This I remember as many of us were involved in reviewing TAO’s work on our forums.

Edit: forgot to say I applaud the intention of this draft. Unfortunately it’s running slap bang into the SC rules in its present form.


That will be why the hour of searching I spent on the TEP forum was completely fruitless... sigh.

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I'll be doing the next draft in a day or two. A thesaurus will handle most of it, but there's a few tricky bits- for example, the Convention on Offsite Property is a noun, and if I can't refer to it directly I might need to forgo refering to it at all. Then there's the overall ruling for the gist of the thing. I can see that I can refer to forums in general, so long as it's not "plainly the electronic entity". I believe Condemn Unknown (#27) is a little older than rule 2b, but Commend Wintony was much newer and explicitly covered the topic of forum destruction in less vague terms than we're proposing to use here, so I think it can be squeezed past 2b.
Last edited by Klaus Devestatorie on Tue May 17, 2022 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bhang Bhang Duc
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Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Tue May 17, 2022 8:48 am

Klaus Devestatorie wrote:
Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:COPS was written by TAO and hosted by The West Pacific, not the East. This I remember as many of us were involved in reviewing TAO’s work on our forums.

Edit: forgot to say I applaud the intention of this draft. Unfortunately it’s running slap bang into the SC rules in its present form.


That will be why the hour of searching I spent on the TEP forum was completely fruitless... sigh.

Unfortunately that’s the old TWP forums COPS was put together on. Can’t remember if it got transferred to the present one - haven’t been on there for a while myself.
Former Delegate of The West Pacific. Former Guardian (under many Delegates) of The West Pacific. TWP's Former Minister for World Assembly Affairs and former Security Council Advisor.

The West Pacific's Official Welshman, Astronomer and Old Fart

Pierconium wrote:I see Funk as an opportunistic manipulator that utilises the means available to him to reach his goals. In other words, a nation after my own heart.

RiderSyl wrote:If an enchantress made it so one raid could bring about world peace, Unibot would ask raiders to just sign a petition instead.

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Klaus Devestatorie
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Postby Klaus Devestatorie » Tue May 17, 2022 6:24 pm

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:
Klaus Devestatorie wrote:
That will be why the hour of searching I spent on the TEP forum was completely fruitless... sigh.

Unfortunately that’s the old TWP forums COPS was put together on. Can’t remember if it got transferred to the present one - haven’t been on there for a while myself.

The treaty text is here, but I haven't spotted a list of signatories yet.
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Bormiar
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Postby Bormiar » Tue May 17, 2022 6:56 pm

Klaus Devestatorie wrote:
Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:Unfortunately that’s the old TWP forums COPS was put together on. Can’t remember if it got transferred to the present one - haven’t been on there for a while myself.

The treaty text is here, but I haven't spotted a list of signatories yet.

Well ACCEL and TWP obviously.

When TNP signed it under Westwind / Lewis and Clark, Laz was also a signatory: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=837466, https://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/6951164/

Also Democratium: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=112364&p=5631625&hilit=%22Convention+on+Off+Site+Property+Security%22#p5631625

And Equilism: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=517859

And Balder: https://forum.theeastpacific.com/viewto ... 293#p89293

Also, this seems useful for your draft overall: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/ns_worl ... -t115.html




I know I didn't find ALL the signatories, but that's a good start, Also, that's how you do this kind of research. Just google and forum search and RMB search and try to find as much as you can.

As for the other potentially relevant regions (e.g. 10KI, TGW, Texas, Gatesville, NPO, Osiris, Spiritus, TSP, GRA, TBH, LWU, DEN, Nasicournia, Europe, Europeia, AA, Imp Sphere, NSLeft, Wintreath, TWI, Yggdrasil, Canada, South Pacific, St Abby, Pacifica just off the top of my head), I recommend you check their forums— at least those that still exist.
Last edited by Bormiar on Tue May 17, 2022 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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