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Southern independence

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
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Nationalist Northumbria
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Founded: Apr 27, 2019
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Southern independence

Postby Nationalist Northumbria » Sat May 14, 2022 3:06 pm

While the independence of other component parts of Britain has been discussed to death, one intriguing possibility that has so far gone undiscussed on this forum is Southern independence. The South of England, undoubtedly England's spiritual heartland, has also undoubtedly been its economic heartland since the decline of the North. Yet, with the exception of London, public spending per capita is the lowest in Britain. Put simply, Southerners aren't getting back what they contribute.

While the government in Westminster talks of 'levelling up' in the North to pander to voters there, there are plenty of towns in the South that are simply neglected. The Medway towns, for instance, are getting next to nothing while wealthy Northern towns such as Richmond (in Chancellor Rishi Sunak's constituency) are given the highest priority. This is clearly unfair.

In 1966, when Labour won a landslide, all of southern England except London voted against socialism. This was repeated in 1997 (when the party won a mere 59 of the 190 southern English seats outside London), 2001 (58), and 2005 (45), when the South had to endure 13 years of Labour government it rejected. This is not merely a matter of demographics: during the 1980s, Southern working-class voters supported Thatcher (even improving from 1983 to 1987) while their Northern counterparts backed Labour. There is a real cultural and political disconnect between the Northern and Southern halves of England that goes beyond class distribution.

Perhaps a model for a 'Southern English nationalism' would be akin to Lega Nord before its hijacking, with a principled man such as John Redwood stepping up to the plate. Perhaps instead of independence a deal for full devolution could be reached, preventing governments from opportunistically stripping it of wealth with the belief that the region is either safe for them (Conservatives) or will never vote for them (Labour). What do you think, NSG? It may surprise you to hear that I, personally, am in favour of fiscal autonomy for the South.
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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Sat May 14, 2022 3:37 pm

Sounds dumb.
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Space Squid
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Space Squid » Sat May 14, 2022 3:38 pm

Away down South in the land of traitors
Conservatives and stuck-up haters
Right away (right away)
Come away (come away)
Right away (right away)
Come away

Where courtesy is king and talk is prattles
UK boys will win the battles
Right away (right away)
Come away (come away)
Right away (right away)
Come away
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Nationalist Northumbria
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Postby Nationalist Northumbria » Sat May 14, 2022 3:50 pm

Adamede wrote:Sounds dumb.

Provide explanation.
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Bede kinnie — Catgirl appreciator

"The amazing thing is that Tony Blair being shot in the head after running a barricade for inexplicable reasons is one of the most plausible episodes in this RP,
which comes across as House of Cards by the writers of Mr. Bean."

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The Order of Makai
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Father Knows Best State

Postby The Order of Makai » Sat May 14, 2022 4:02 pm

Space Squid wrote:Away down South in the land of traitors
Conservatives and stuck-up haters
Right away (right away)
Come away (come away)
Right away (right away)
Come away

Where courtesy is king and talk is prattles
UK boys will win the battles
Right away (right away)
Come away (come away)
Right away (right away)
Come away


Not every North vs South conflict is analagous to the American Civil War, if anything the English North would be more comparable to the American South... except the English North is perfectly fine with being dependent on the teat of the South.


And don't expect a proper explanation from that guy, his signature should provide a sufficent explanation for why he believes that, because you probably won't get any more.
Last edited by The Order of Makai on Sat May 14, 2022 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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New Straits
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby New Straits » Sat May 14, 2022 4:08 pm

Yeah right all the problems can be solved by seperatisim or secession.

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United states of amuerica
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Founded: May 14, 2022
Ex-Nation

Confederates not allowed

Postby United states of amuerica » Sat May 14, 2022 4:11 pm

I oppose to Southern independence.
Last edited by United states of amuerica on Sat May 14, 2022 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Space Squid
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Space Squid » Sat May 14, 2022 4:15 pm

The Order of Makai wrote:
Space Squid wrote:Away down South in the land of traitors
Conservatives and stuck-up haters
Right away (right away)
Come away (come away)
Right away (right away)
Come away

Where courtesy is king and talk is prattles
UK boys will win the battles
Right away (right away)
Come away (come away)
Right away (right away)
Come away


Not every North vs South conflict is analagous to the American Civil War,

You don't say? I wish someone had told me so I could have changed the lyrics to be more culturally appropriate.
Last edited by Space Squid on Sat May 14, 2022 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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United states of amuerica
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Founded: May 14, 2022
Ex-Nation

Postby United states of amuerica » Sat May 14, 2022 4:16 pm

We will crush the southerners, we will send 500 million soldiers

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Chan Island
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Chan Island » Sat May 14, 2022 4:18 pm

Why would the South want to secede from the nation it dominates? Idiot take.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=513597&p=39401766#p39401766
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Forsher
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Postby Forsher » Sat May 14, 2022 4:34 pm

Chan Island wrote:Why would the South want to secede from the nation it dominates? Idiot take.


Basically the Brexit argument. Except the EU is the rest of Britain.
That it Could be What it Is, Is What it Is

Stop making shit up, though. Links, or it's a God-damn lie and you know it.

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Nationalist Northumbria
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Postby Nationalist Northumbria » Sat May 14, 2022 4:44 pm

Chan Island wrote:Why would the South want to secede from the nation it dominates? Idiot take.

Except it doesn't dominate? Even at Labour's heights in 1997 and 2001 they lost the South, even when you take London into account. And as I've already explained it gets far less back from government than it contributes.
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Bede kinnie — Catgirl appreciator

"The amazing thing is that Tony Blair being shot in the head after running a barricade for inexplicable reasons is one of the most plausible episodes in this RP,
which comes across as House of Cards by the writers of Mr. Bean."

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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Sat May 14, 2022 4:46 pm

Nationalist Northumbria wrote:
Adamede wrote:Sounds dumb.

Provide explanation.

It's kinda like saying everything west of the Urals should secede from Russia.
22yo male. Like most everyone else my opinions are garbage.

Pro: Democracy, 1st & 2nd Amendments, Science, Conservation, Nuclear, universal healthcare, Equality regardless of race, creed, or sexual orientation.
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Nationalist Northumbria
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Postby Nationalist Northumbria » Sat May 14, 2022 4:48 pm

Adamede wrote:
Nationalist Northumbria wrote:Provide explanation.

It's kinda like saying everything west of the Urals should secede from Russia.

I find your comparison of everywhere in the UK outside Southern England to Siberia rather offensive.
Republic of Northumbria
Bede kinnie — Catgirl appreciator

"The amazing thing is that Tony Blair being shot in the head after running a barricade for inexplicable reasons is one of the most plausible episodes in this RP,
which comes across as House of Cards by the writers of Mr. Bean."

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Adamede
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Adamede » Sat May 14, 2022 4:50 pm

Nationalist Northumbria wrote:
Adamede wrote:It's kinda like saying everything west of the Urals should secede from Russia.

I find your comparison of everywhere in the UK outside Southern England to Siberia rather offensive.

Noted, don't care.
22yo male. Like most everyone else my opinions are garbage.

Pro: Democracy, 1st & 2nd Amendments, Science, Conservation, Nuclear, universal healthcare, Equality regardless of race, creed, or sexual orientation.
Neutral : Feminism, anarchism
Anti: Left and Right wing authoritarianism, religious extremists & theocracy, monarchy, nanny & surveillance states

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Yankee Rike
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Ex-Nation

Postby Yankee Rike » Sat May 14, 2022 9:40 pm

Southern England independence should be the ethnic nationalism of East Angles, Angles, East Saxons, and South Saxons. We can call the new country Anglo-Saxonland, or simply just "England" for short.
A Yankee ethnostate stretching from Nova Scotia to Minnesota, bounded by the Ohio River, Mason-Dixon Line, St. Lawrence River, and the Hudson Bay. Speaks a more Germanic-version of English that is infused with many Dutch, German, and Nordic words (in contrast to Dixie where the English language is much more similar to modern American English). Dominant religions are Congregationalism, Presbyterianism, Dutch Reformed, Methodism, and Lutheranism. Popular foods include hot dogs, baked beans, rye whiskey, and pastries.
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Nilokeras
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Nilokeras » Sat May 14, 2022 10:24 pm

what if I told you that not every political phenomena can be framed as a question of nationalism

what if its other things

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Republic Of Ludwigsburg
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Postby Republic Of Ludwigsburg » Sat May 14, 2022 10:29 pm

Nationalist Northumbria wrote:While the independence of other component parts of Britain has been discussed to death, one intriguing possibility that has so far gone undiscussed on this forum is Southern independence. The South of England, undoubtedly England's spiritual heartland, has also undoubtedly been its economic heartland since the decline of the North. Yet, with the exception of London, public spending per capita is the lowest in Britain. Put simply, Southerners aren't getting back what they contribute.

While the government in Westminster talks of 'levelling up' in the North to pander to voters there, there are plenty of towns in the South that are simply neglected. The Medway towns, for instance, are getting next to nothing while wealthy Northern towns such as Richmond (in Chancellor Rishi Sunak's constituency) are given the highest priority. This is clearly unfair.

In 1966, when Labour won a landslide, all of southern England except London voted against socialism. This was repeated in 1997 (when the party won a mere 59 of the 190 southern English seats outside London), 2001 (58), and 2005 (45), when the South had to endure 13 years of Labour government it rejected. This is not merely a matter of demographics: during the 1980s, Southern working-class voters supported Thatcher (even improving from 1983 to 1987) while their Northern counterparts backed Labour. There is a real cultural and political disconnect between the Northern and Southern halves of England that goes beyond class distribution.

Perhaps a model for a 'Southern English nationalism' would be akin to Lega Nord before its hijacking, with a principled man such as John Redwood stepping up to the plate. Perhaps instead of independence a deal for full devolution could be reached, preventing governments from opportunistically stripping it of wealth with the belief that the region is either safe for them (Conservatives) or will never vote for them (Labour). What do you think, NSG? It may surprise you to hear that I, personally, am in favour of fiscal autonomy for the South.

What the fuck do you mean? South England is way better than North England in every way, you'd know if you lived there. North England is an underdeveloped rural backwater, the reason Labour wins in South England is because it's industrially developed, and conservatives do well in village areas. This also ignores Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland as a factor in this.
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SIS (State Industrial Stock)↑8.3%
LPS (Ludwigsburg Private Stock) ↓1.31%
LWU (Ludwigsburg Worker's Union) ↑15.3%

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"Ideologies"? "Industrialization"? "Politics"? Joogadooga hit that stone on your head a bit to hard. Now let's go catch this snake
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Republic Of Ludwigsburg
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Republic Of Ludwigsburg » Sat May 14, 2022 10:30 pm

Nationalist Northumbria wrote:
Adamede wrote:It's kinda like saying everything west of the Urals should secede from Russia.

I find your comparison of everywhere in the UK outside Southern England to Siberia rather offensive.

West of the Urals is the industrial heartland of Russia, while the East is a rural underdeveloped, uninhabitable wasteland which has all territory but no development.
Ludwigsburger Stock
SIS (State Industrial Stock)↑8.3%
LPS (Ludwigsburg Private Stock) ↓1.31%
LWU (Ludwigsburg Worker's Union) ↑15.3%

professional idiot
Friedrich Schonbrunn asks GDR to shove it

Politiscales: https://bit.ly/3tkNz5e
"Ideologies"? "Industrialization"? "Politics"? Joogadooga hit that stone on your head a bit to hard. Now let's go catch this snake
Pro: Social Democracy, EU, LGBTQ+ Rights, Labour Party, Ukraine
Anti: Fascism, State Capitalism, Stalinism, Tankies supporting Russia, Nazism,a

Asexual

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Eydishshtat
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Eydishshtat » Sat May 14, 2022 10:30 pm

No. I'm in favor of an Anglosphere union.
A Yiddish settler-colonial state in northern Elchland. Socialist leaning and more into Yiddish cultural nationalism than it is into Zionism. Virulently anti-Slavic and moderately anti-German.

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Space Squid
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Space Squid » Sat May 14, 2022 10:33 pm

Nilokeras wrote:what if I told you that not every political phenomena can be framed as a question of nationalism

what if its other things

Those in Marxist houses shouldn't throw stones of "obsession-with-only-one-political-framing." :p

But yes.
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User avatar
Republic Of Ludwigsburg
Diplomat
 
Posts: 703
Founded: Jun 26, 2021
Democratic Socialists

Postby Republic Of Ludwigsburg » Sat May 14, 2022 10:33 pm

Space Squid wrote:Away down South in the land of traitors
Conservatives and stuck-up haters
Right away (right away)
Come away (come away)
Right away (right away)
Come away

Where courtesy is king and talk is prattles
UK boys will win the battles
Right away (right away)
Come away (come away)
Right away (right away)
Come away

It's quite the opposite, the North is conservative and racist while the South is generally more progressive, and the UK is based in Southern England. Stop spouting your obnoxious Amerocentric worldview on lands across an ocean away.
Ludwigsburger Stock
SIS (State Industrial Stock)↑8.3%
LPS (Ludwigsburg Private Stock) ↓1.31%
LWU (Ludwigsburg Worker's Union) ↑15.3%

professional idiot
Friedrich Schonbrunn asks GDR to shove it

Politiscales: https://bit.ly/3tkNz5e
"Ideologies"? "Industrialization"? "Politics"? Joogadooga hit that stone on your head a bit to hard. Now let's go catch this snake
Pro: Social Democracy, EU, LGBTQ+ Rights, Labour Party, Ukraine
Anti: Fascism, State Capitalism, Stalinism, Tankies supporting Russia, Nazism,a

Asexual

User avatar
Eydishshtat
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 7
Founded: Nov 26, 2021
Democratic Socialists

Postby Eydishshtat » Sat May 14, 2022 10:34 pm

Republic Of Ludwigsburg wrote:
Space Squid wrote:Away down South in the land of traitors
Conservatives and stuck-up haters
Right away (right away)
Come away (come away)
Right away (right away)
Come away

Where courtesy is king and talk is prattles
UK boys will win the battles
Right away (right away)
Come away (come away)
Right away (right away)
Come away

It's quite the opposite, the North is conservative and racist while the South is generally more progressive, and the UK is based in Southern England. Stop spouting your obnoxious Amerocentric worldview on lands across an ocean away.


The North votes Labour, south votes Tory.
A Yiddish settler-colonial state in northern Elchland. Socialist leaning and more into Yiddish cultural nationalism than it is into Zionism. Virulently anti-Slavic and moderately anti-German.

User avatar
Space Squid
Diplomat
 
Posts: 806
Founded: Feb 04, 2022
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Space Squid » Sat May 14, 2022 10:35 pm

Republic Of Ludwigsburg wrote:
Space Squid wrote:Away down South in the land of traitors
Conservatives and stuck-up haters
Right away (right away)
Come away (come away)
Right away (right away)
Come away

Where courtesy is king and talk is prattles
UK boys will win the battles
Right away (right away)
Come away (come away)
Right away (right away)
Come away

It's quite the opposite, the North is conservative and racist while the South is generally more progressive, and the UK is based in Southern England. Stop spouting your obnoxious Amerocentric worldview on lands across an ocean away.

The South almost always votes Conservative. And has a reputation for being kind of full of themselves.

I sustain that this is as accurate an appraisal as you could hope for with a quick edit to a hundred-and-fifty year old song, made in jest on the spot.
Last edited by Space Squid on Sat May 14, 2022 10:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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User avatar
Republic Of Ludwigsburg
Diplomat
 
Posts: 703
Founded: Jun 26, 2021
Democratic Socialists

Postby Republic Of Ludwigsburg » Sat May 14, 2022 10:38 pm

Eydishshtat wrote:
Republic Of Ludwigsburg wrote:It's quite the opposite, the North is conservative and racist while the South is generally more progressive, and the UK is based in Southern England. Stop spouting your obnoxious Amerocentric worldview on lands across an ocean away.


The North votes Labour, south votes Tory.

It doesn't really matter which part votes whom, since it is largely dependent on the candidates. But in the South, excluding rural areas, Labour is very influential. The North is less focused on the social side of things and is more focused on getting their wage as a coal miner to be increased from 15£ a month to 16. This is also getting a bit threadjacky so I suggest we stop arguing over this.
Last edited by Republic Of Ludwigsburg on Sat May 14, 2022 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ludwigsburger Stock
SIS (State Industrial Stock)↑8.3%
LPS (Ludwigsburg Private Stock) ↓1.31%
LWU (Ludwigsburg Worker's Union) ↑15.3%

professional idiot
Friedrich Schonbrunn asks GDR to shove it

Politiscales: https://bit.ly/3tkNz5e
"Ideologies"? "Industrialization"? "Politics"? Joogadooga hit that stone on your head a bit to hard. Now let's go catch this snake
Pro: Social Democracy, EU, LGBTQ+ Rights, Labour Party, Ukraine
Anti: Fascism, State Capitalism, Stalinism, Tankies supporting Russia, Nazism,a

Asexual

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