Heisting, Immoral or just an questionable route to richness?

[Oess]

I know what you're thinking "Why is a heister asking if heisting is bad, of course it's bad!" But is it really? Heisting is something that I feel like keeps some inflators in check or put them in their place, however, I can not know everything about this questionable topic. As there is many factors into how a heist happens, and why they decided to go ahead with it. So what are your thoughts?

[Panagouge]

It is a natural consequence of the way system was designed. Inherently, it is neither good nor evil. It can only be what me make of it.

[Coffin-Breathe]

OP`s question is wrong - actually it should be : how immoral/questionable are most of the tactics/ways practized by not only the "top 1%", but meanwhile almost everyone (left) participating in the card game (farming big, monopolizing, inflating, heisting, sniping, overstocking, "clever" trading and many more) ?
I´d say, that´s a question of everyones personal opinions, what is "morale/amorale". What is "fair play", and what is not ?
That´s a question, everyone has to decide for himself, like every question about morale; always someones "asshole" is another ones hero, and it´s always relating to "the point of view".

My personal opinion on heisting is, that it´s okay and acceptable (somehow even welcomed), as it usually hits "big farmers" and/or "inflaters" (you usually have to amass a veritable ammount of bank and put it on a bid to become "heistable") and a risk someone has to face when putting large sums on a card in the free market. In fact, there is no "heisting", only someone`s use of an good opportunity arising.

[Giraffeton]

which is the lesser evil? or are they just two sides of the same coin?

[The H Corporation]

I really don't care, because heisting is heisting. There are no rules against it so its fine

[Alcala-Cordel]

It's a little uncool when you do it to someone with significantly less than what you have but overall heisting is ok

[One Small Island]

Heisting is a part of the game. It is neither immoral nor a questionable route to anything. It's just a mechanic that exists. If it happens to you, don't get angry, just go heist someone else to get your bank back~

[Fhaengshia]

From either a single nation owner or someone with perhaps a dozen puppets, heisting has been a way to supplement a low income of bank. After tcals’ removal however it has become far harder for obvious reasons. Nations in control of many puppets are far more likely to be able to heist, especially if they’ve been around a long time to gather more cards across numerous puppets.

Any method of analysing morality needs to classify and rank different tactics and maybe even classes of players to develop a system of judgment. Is it moral for a 100-puppet owner to heist another 100-puppet owner? Is it moral for a 300-puppet owner who is new to the game to heist a 50-puppet owner who is a serial inflator and has been around since the beginning of cards?

There is a great deal of nuance around different play-styles and experience, with the tactics being used constantly evolving and hotly debated. As Coffin-Breathe said; “everyone has to decide for himself”. Most here have said something along the lines of any tactic using the system’s mechanics is fair-game, a laissez-faire approach so to say, however organisations have been created that legally prevent some of these actions being undertaken against fellow members.

As the only practical economic game-loop within this political simulator, the cards mini-game is an important facet to understanding and debating market systems. The framework provided is visible and free, with the player-created organisations on top providing legal systems. Though with some players being commended and condemned for their activities, there is somewhat of a haphazard game-wide morality being developed, however inconsistent.

[Hustlertwo]

Harsh truth: heisting is more ethical than having puppets in the first place. One is entirely within the game rules while the other deliberately subverts them.

[Incredible Bums]

I have to correct you : having puppets (even if they count in hundreds and serve the single purpose of farming or storing cards) is not 'against the rules', though it may be seen (and so I do) as 'unfair' and/or amoral (and, imo, shows the true colours of a player somehow, irrelevant which kind of excuse for acting this way might be called upon).
Many of the so-called 'tactics' are, imo, not against the rules of the game themselves, but, while exploiting loopholes and 'gray areas', against the 'spirit of the game', as, for example, I see it.
The problem I see is not some players acting like what might be seen as 'unfair' or 'amoral', but that such behaviour almost forces young (new) players (and also all others) to do the same, if they want to even have a slim chance to keep pace, thus ruining a already (sic) ruined game even more.

[Hustlertwo]

I didn’t say puppets broke the rules, I said they subvert them. Any D&D veteran knows that there is RAW, or rules as written, and RAI, rules as intended. The former is literal interpretation, and the latter is using inference to suss out what the rules clearly meant. By RAW, puppets are valid. By RAI, absolutely not.

[Incredible Bums]

Well, and the main and most basic rule of D & D, as written and intended, is to provide fun for every player (which every seasoned gamemaster worth his salt never forgets), not only for the 'power-gamer' section of the group and/or the 'rules lawyer', and good gamemasters interfere and try to stop the exploiting of loopholes, hamper overwhelming power-gamers and similar 'game-killers', may it be by softly admonishing, 'acts of the gods', cheating at the results of dice rolls, adjusting the narrative or even by banning someone from the group, independant from their/the groups style of play.
Which I have the impression, isn´t done here (by the admins/mods), for whatever reason, if not the long waiting period for a 'third season' could be seen as an expression of an attempt to interfere (which doesn´t work, if intended so, I´d say).

[Swedish Gensokyo]

It is bad.

[Riemstagrad]

My personal stance is that i won't heist people who are transferring bank between nations. I will however not hesitate to heist a clear act of inflation.
I don't really care that much if other people heist. I got used to making safe bank-transfers, and never get heisted anymore.

[The Otter Archipelago]

It’s exciting, really. It makes inflation attempts risky and gives small fish a chance to gulp at big bank. Or just see some insane trades play out in real time: Varianus getting fleeced for 6K, for example!!!

For some inexplicable reason I find it preferable to mass farming. Though, to be sure, without all the farming puppets continually feeding the market, the game would be pretty boring.

I do have one puppet - mainly because most of my region are ghost nations at this point and I need an alt to generate cards and inflate my own collections (which I’m experimenting with and finding thrilling, too)

There are quite a few players that I have agreements to not interfere with and that’s a great way to play too - not only respecting polite requests but forging future friendly trading partners.

[Blacula]

My personal stance is that i won't heist people who are transferring bank between nations. I will however not hesitate to heist a clear act of inflation.
I don't really care that much if other people heist. I got used to making safe bank-transfers, and never get heisted anymore.

I honestly don't know why people care. I placed an ask on an auction not long ago and got a "please do not heist me" telegram, which led to a few back and forth messages when I challenged them that is was a public auction. I just happened to notice an auction and tried to make a teeny profit on a card I didn't particularly need. But how was I to know that he/she was transferring bank to a puppet nation? And even so, who cares? If you place an order to trade anything on a public exchange, not just in this game but say stocks/bonds/ETFs/whatever in real life, you can't complain that someone else placed an order to buy or sell that same thing. That's absolutely within the rules.

This person made a huge deal out of being a top value trader, worth hundreds of thousands, and complained because I lowered the price of a 70 cent card or whatever by 1 cent. What a waste of energy for such a small scale thing, I thought. Not the first time someone has complained about something like this either even though I generally do not trade very actively.

[The Otter Archipelago]

I was threatened that ‘big farma’ was going to come after me.

[Hustlertwo]

I successfully extorted 9.00 as a protection fee to make me stop trying to heist a transfer. Felt good, I will say.

[El Lazaro]

I was very confused by this before I noticed it was under the trading cards forum. What does heisting mean?

[One Small Island]

I was threatened that ‘big farma’ was going to come after me.

So; whomever made this threat is ridiculous. Big Farma is a joke to everyone except a select group of players who hate the players who have large card farms. I can guarantee you that "Big Farma" is not going to come after you, and in fact I encourage you to join the cards discord and get in touch with them, because they're lovely people from every experience I've had with them.

However, if someone is threatening you on NS or about NS you should contact the moderators via GHR with all the pertinent information, because that kinda stuff just is not okay.

I was very confused by this before I noticed it was under the trading cards forum. What does heisting mean?

Heisting just means stealing someone's bank while they're trying to inflate a card or transfer bank from one nation to another.

[The Otter Archipelago]

It generally felt like role playing smack talk, to be honest, so I responded in kind. (Without any threats, obviously, I don’t have a lot of clout. Ha.)

I actually thought/think it’s a wise strategy to collect cards that whales will be using for inflation or transactions.

[One Small Island]

It generally felt like role playing smack talk, to be honest, so I responded in kind. (Without any threats, obviously, I don’t have a lot of clout. Ha.)

I actually thought/think it’s a wise strategy to collect cards that whales will be using for inflation or transactions.

Yeah, roleplay and smack talk I can definitely believe.

and it is a very smart strategy.

[Giraffeton]

I was threatened that ‘big farma’ was going to come after me.

i would say that 'big farma isn't real, big frama can't hurt you'

but big frama is real, although like one small island said, they are quite friendly and nice

[Giraffeton]

It generally felt like role playing smack talk, to be honest, so I responded in kind. (Without any threats, obviously, I don’t have a lot of clout. Ha.)

I actually thought/think it’s a wise strategy to collect cards that whales will be using for inflation or transactions.

heisting can be very profitable so why wouldn't you collect cards that are good for inflation

[Riemstagrad]

My personal stance is that i won't heist people who are transferring bank between nations. I will however not hesitate to heist a clear act of inflation.
I don't really care that much if other people heist. I got used to making safe bank-transfers, and never get heisted anymore.

I honestly don't know why people care. I placed an ask on an auction not long ago and got a "please do not heist me" telegram, which led to a few back and forth messages when I challenged them that is was a public auction. I just happened to notice an auction and tried to make a teeny profit on a card I didn't particularly need. But how was I to know that he/she was transferring bank to a puppet nation? And even so, who cares? If you place an order to trade anything on a public exchange, not just in this game but say stocks/bonds/ETFs/whatever in real life, you can't complain that someone else placed an order to buy or sell that same thing. That's absolutely within the rules.

This person made a huge deal out of being a top value trader, worth hundreds of thousands, and complained because I lowered the price of a 70 cent card or whatever by 1 cent. What a waste of energy for such a small scale thing, I thought. Not the first time someone has complained about something like this either even though I generally do not trade very actively.

I have enough experience in the card game to tell apart a bank-transfer from an inflation attempt 90% of the time. The reason i don't heist transfers is because i play in good coöperation with most players and i prefer good relations above a few bucks.

But i also do understand and respect that players will go ahead and heist bank-transfers. I think it's the job of the players doing the transfer to cope with it. Either accept the risk or develop strategies to reduce the rist.