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[DRAFT] Fraud Act

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Imperium Anglorum
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[DRAFT] Fraud Act

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:05 am

The World Assembly enacts as follows.

  1. Fraud. No person, natural or juridical, may wilfully make or direct or conspire with another person to make, a materially false misrepresentation to another person for the purposes of acquiring any thing of value therefrom.

  2. Civil action. Violation of section 1 gives rise to a cause of civil action by the injured party against the violator with damages no less than the fair market value of the things acquired in proximate consequence of such misrepresentation less the value of things already restored.

  3. Anti-alienation. Whensoever a member nation is informed of a likely violation of section 1, it shall prevent the likely violator from alienating or disposing of property which the member nation has probable cause to believe was acquired in violation of section 1.

  4. Clarification. In this resolution a 'thing of value' is any thing – including money, tangible or intangible property, or control over or ownership of a corporation – with the primary purpose of bringing or facilitating economic gain to a user or possessor.

  5. Reservation. Member nations, collectively and individually, may make further regulations to ensure the truthfulness of commercial speech, including but not limited to regulations governing advertisements to different age groups, advertisement claims, and the legality or type of advertisements for addictive products.
Last edited by Imperium Anglorum on Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:22 pm, edited 17 times in total.

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:06 am

– Nb espionage is basically always illegal. People do it anyway.
– I intend to expand, it says draft for a reason.

Apatosaurus wrote:OOC: Wouldn't nations already regulate fraud as per Reasonable Nation Theory?
Morover wrote:"It is nonsensical for the World Assembly to legislate on matters that, well, do not affect the world. If it were called the Morover Assembly, I may be more lenient on this."

GA 436 does not provide an exception for member nations to penalise fraudulent speech. To do so requires passage of further legislation. viewtopic.php?p=34527006#p34527006.
Last edited by Imperium Anglorum on Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Untecna
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Postby Untecna » Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:07 am

For such a seasoned author, I'm surprised that there is no preamble. Plus, this would be able to warrant being expanded, but I will wait to see what some others here may say.

Edit: My basic point is that I would wait to make any comments on potential expansions until others make opinions clear.
Last edited by Untecna on Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:39 am

"As written, it appears that a civil cause of action arises when the misrepresented statement is made, and that damages are at least the value of the thing in issue. There doesn't seem to be an explicit requirement of harm from said misrepresentation. I am concerned that it allows individuals to "double dip", getting restorative damages and also keeping their object of value, which doesn't serve the goal of restoring them to their pre-fraud position."

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:58 am

Separatist Peoples wrote:"As written, it appears that a civil cause of action arises when the misrepresented statement is made, and that damages are at least the value of the thing in issue. There doesn't seem to be an explicit requirement of harm from said misrepresentation. I am concerned that it allows individuals to "double dip", getting restorative damages and also keeping their object of value, which doesn't serve the goal of restoring them to their pre-fraud position."

C Marcius Blythe. Would you think adding 'less the value of things already restored' would suffice in that case?

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Thousand Branches
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Postby Thousand Branches » Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:05 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:– Nb espionage is basically always illegal.

Non-binary espionage??? Downright evil! :p
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Untecna
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Postby Untecna » Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:13 am

"As written, the proposal has no base on what exactly the 'value' it speaks of is. Case and point, Clause 1."

No person, natural or juridical, may wilfully make or direct or conspire with another person to make, a materially false misrepresentation for the purposes of acquiring any thing of value.


"I have bolded out the section in question for emphasis. This clause seems to make it that as long as something has some form of perceived value, even non-monetary, it can be actionable under later clauses. I assume the author refers to monetary value and not personal value, so a clarification of that would suffice."

OOC: Nitpick, I know. Just seems that a bit of clarification might be needed on what "value" might constitute here, just so we don't have to deal with someone saying "Oh, well, if it has personal value to me, then I can use this!" I understand the meaning is monetary value, but making that fully clear would be nice.
Last edited by Untecna on Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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[violet] wrote:Maybe we could power our new search engine from the sexual tension between you two.

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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:57 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:"As written, it appears that a civil cause of action arises when the misrepresented statement is made, and that damages are at least the value of the thing in issue. There doesn't seem to be an explicit requirement of harm from said misrepresentation. I am concerned that it allows individuals to "double dip", getting restorative damages and also keeping their object of value, which doesn't serve the goal of restoring them to their pre-fraud position."

C Marcius Blythe. Would you think adding 'less the value of things already restored' would suffice in that case?

"I think it would be best to require harm spring from the misrepresentation rather than limit damages. Require an actual loss."

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Morover
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Postby Morover » Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:04 pm

"It is nonsensical for the World Assembly to legislate on matters that, well, do not affect the world. If it were called the Morover Assembly, I may be more lenient on this."
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Apatosaurus
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Postby Apatosaurus » Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:06 pm

OOC: Wouldn't nations already regulate fraud as per Reasonable Nation Theory?
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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:07 pm

Apatosaurus wrote:OOC: Wouldn't nations already regulate fraud as per Reasonable Nation Theory?
Morover wrote:"It is nonsensical for the World Assembly to legislate on matters that, well, do not affect the world. If it were called the Morover Assembly, I may be more lenient on this."

GA 436 does not provide an exception for member nations to penalise fraudulent speech. To do so requires passage of further legislation. viewtopic.php?p=34527006#p34527006. (Edit spacing.)
Last edited by Imperium Anglorum on Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sierra Lyricalia
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Postby Sierra Lyricalia » Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:26 pm

"I'd suggest a clarification that fiction, and satire of public figures, shall not be classed as 'misrepresentation.' I'd hate to live in a world in which the Right Reverend Gary Falls-Well wins his lawsuit."
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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:57 pm

Sierra Lyricalia wrote:"I'd suggest a clarification that fiction, and satire of public figures, shall not be classed as 'misrepresentation.' I'd hate to live in a world in which the Right Reverend Gary Falls-Well wins his lawsuit."

I changed the Fraud test to require a direct connection:

No person, natural or juridical, may wilfully make or direct or conspire with another person to make, a materially false misrepresentation to another person for the purposes of acquiring any thing of value therefrom.

Author: 1 SC and 44 GA resolutions
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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:29 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
Sierra Lyricalia wrote:"I'd suggest a clarification that fiction, and satire of public figures, shall not be classed as 'misrepresentation.' I'd hate to live in a world in which the Right Reverend Gary Falls-Well wins his lawsuit."

I changed the Fraud test to require a direct connection:

No person, natural or juridical, may wilfully make or direct or conspire with another person to make, a materially false misrepresentation to another person for the purposes of acquiring any thing of value therefrom.

"This would appear to ban The Onion, but I think there may be a solution, ambassador. I'm going to ponder it."

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Untecna
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Postby Untecna » Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:25 am

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:I changed the Fraud test to require a direct connection:

No person, natural or juridical, may wilfully make or direct or conspire with another person to make, a materially false misrepresentation to another person for the purposes of acquiring any thing of value therefrom.

"This would appear to ban The Onion, but I think there may be a solution, ambassador. I'm going to ponder it."

"Ambassador Bell, my recommendation for the writer, in this case, would be to make, instead of a one clarification on what value constitutes, create a definitions section in front of all other clauses to define both value and misrepresentation. That's my two cents, anyway."
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Naan Violence, y'all.

Political Beliefs
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Go 49rs

Untecna wrote:No, and you can talk to my dragon lawyers if you dragon want me to dragon shut up.

Hemakral wrote:damn bro that wall so thick kool-aid man couldn't bust through

[violet] wrote:Maybe we could power our new search engine from the sexual tension between you two.

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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:19 am

Untecna wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:"This would appear to ban The Onion, but I think there may be a solution, ambassador. I'm going to ponder it."

"Ambassador Bell, my recommendation for the writer, in this case, would be to make, instead of a one clarification on what value constitutes, create a definitions section in front of all other clauses to define both value and misrepresentation. That's my two cents, anyway."

"This is a terrible solution that invites reactive reading. A better solution would simply be to limit causes of action for misrepresentation and fraud to matters of contract."

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Untecna
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Postby Untecna » Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:22 am

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Untecna wrote:"Ambassador Bell, my recommendation for the writer, in this case, would be to make, instead of a one clarification on what value constitutes, create a definitions section in front of all other clauses to define both value and misrepresentation. That's my two cents, anyway."

"This is a terrible solution that invites reactive reading. A better solution would simply be to limit causes of action for misrepresentation and fraud to matters of contract."

"And where would we place such limit? A definition would not be as bad, though perhaps stuffed in with the clarification clause of which already exists."
Last edited by Untecna on Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Californian

Dragon with internet access

Unironically still in NSG discussions, now turned to slight shitposting to make it fun for everyone else me and me only.

I'm queer

Heloin's, perhaps, unwanted accountant

Don't use my old posts to judge me, I was cringe af

Naan Violence, y'all.

Political Beliefs
TL;DR: I'm a democratic socialist. Surprise Surprise, I don't support genocide or violence.

Go 49rs

Untecna wrote:No, and you can talk to my dragon lawyers if you dragon want me to dragon shut up.

Hemakral wrote:damn bro that wall so thick kool-aid man couldn't bust through

[violet] wrote:Maybe we could power our new search engine from the sexual tension between you two.

Flag Dragon's Name: Bruno

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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:46 am

Untecna wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:"This is a terrible solution that invites reactive reading. A better solution would simply be to limit causes of action for misrepresentation and fraud to matters of contract."

"And where would we place such limit? A definition would not be as bad, though perhaps stuffed in with the clarification clause of which already exists."

"Contract is the limit. Actions in contract are self-evident, which anybody with a modicum of legal training knows."

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Postby Bananaistan » Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:56 am

"The People's Republic of Bananaistan supports the general concept. Far too often have our people and our international trading organisations been let down by shoddy merchandise and false promises by suppliers in the so-called liberal democracies. This sort of thing would make it easier to force them to make good their delinquency through the judicial organs already established this assembly."
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Xanthorrhoea
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Postby Xanthorrhoea » Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:10 am

Might I suggest the inclusion of statements that are merely misleading in the proposal. Many entities make claims that, while technically true, lead the other party to incorrect assumptions. An example would be internet providers offering “up to 500 gigabits/s” download speed while providing an average speed on 4megabits/s. Such representations should be stamped out, and a fraud proposal seems a good place to do it.

Edit: Potentially this could be expanded to include consumer protections if you have the space. It’s an area I’ve been eying off for a proposal for a while, but it could fit well here. Things like fitness for purpose guarantees, quality guarantees, and provisions covering onerous terms in standard form contracts are potential areas that could be included. However, thorough consumer protections legislation may be beyond the scope you want for this proposal, so feel free to ignore the suggestion.
Last edited by Xanthorrhoea on Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:14 pm

Reservation clause included.

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:02 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:I changed the Fraud test to require a direct connection:

No person, natural or juridical, may wilfully make or direct or conspire with another person to make, a materially false misrepresentation to another person for the purposes of acquiring any thing of value therefrom.

"This would appear to ban The Onion, but I think there may be a solution, ambassador. I'm going to ponder it."

C Marcius Blythe. We await your pondering with bated breath and shall do some thinking of our own.

Author: 1 SC and 44 GA resolutions
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Untecna
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Untecna » Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:20 am

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Untecna wrote:"And where would we place such limit? A definition would not be as bad, though perhaps stuffed in with the clarification clause of which already exists."

"Contract is the limit. Actions in contract are self-evident, which anybody with a modicum of legal training knows."

"And what if the fraudulent activity occurs not from a contract but from another source?"
Californian

Dragon with internet access

Unironically still in NSG discussions, now turned to slight shitposting to make it fun for everyone else me and me only.

I'm queer

Heloin's, perhaps, unwanted accountant

Don't use my old posts to judge me, I was cringe af

Naan Violence, y'all.

Political Beliefs
TL;DR: I'm a democratic socialist. Surprise Surprise, I don't support genocide or violence.

Go 49rs

Untecna wrote:No, and you can talk to my dragon lawyers if you dragon want me to dragon shut up.

Hemakral wrote:damn bro that wall so thick kool-aid man couldn't bust through

[violet] wrote:Maybe we could power our new search engine from the sexual tension between you two.

Flag Dragon's Name: Bruno

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Sierra Lyricalia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Sierra Lyricalia » Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:50 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:Reservation. Member nations, collectively and individually, make make further regulations to ensure the truthfulness of commercial speech, including but not limited to regulations governing advertisements to different age groups, advertisement claims, and the legality or type of advertisements for addictive products.[/list]


"I'll note the scrivener's error here, and pledge my added brainpan hours to the ponderment at hand."
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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:23 pm

Sierra Lyricalia wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Reservation. Member nations, collectively and individually, make make further regulations to ensure the truthfulness of commercial speech, including but not limited to regulations governing advertisements to different age groups, advertisement claims, and the legality or type of advertisements for addictive products.[/list]

"I'll note the scrivener's error here, and pledge my added brainpan hours to the ponderment at hand."

Thanks. This is what happens when you draft on your phone: you start getting real life references to minor planets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makemake.

Author: 1 SC and 44 GA resolutions
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GenSec (24 Dec 2021 –); posts not official unless so indicated
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