NATION

PASSWORD

Banning begging altogether

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Do you think begging should be banned?

Yes
25
19%
No
104
81%
 
Total votes : 129

User avatar
Iwassoclose
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1306
Founded: Dec 08, 2014
Ex-Nation

Banning begging altogether

Postby Iwassoclose » Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:07 am

I was recently talking to a friend from Singapore and they brought up that begging there was banned and people could be imprisoned for the act.

It got me thinking and I went to look it up online and it was.

Destitute Persons Act (Cap 78)[1]

Penalty for begging

4.—(1) Any person being a habitual beggar found begging in a public place in such a way as to cause or be likely to cause annoyance to persons frequenting the place or otherwise to create a nuisance shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $3,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years.

(2) In this section, "habitual beggar" means a person who on at least 2 previous occasions was found begging in a public place in such a way as to cause or be likely to cause annoyance to persons frequenting the place or otherwise to create a nuisance and was in consequence thereof required on those 2 occasions to reside in a welfare home.


This is a pretty neat way of handling the begging and homeless situation in a lot of cities.

Panhandling is a nuisance and if you have been around it you know what I am talking about. For example - you go into a store to buy a drink and then get surrounded by people waiting outside asking for change. Or people getting into your personal space to get for money. People following you and harassing you. etc

That said, I do feel for them and society should be responsible to the people who cant help themselves. If they are found begging and is homeless, there should be social programs to help them get situated into a rooming or housing situation with help to get gainful employment or medical help. If however they are habitual beggars and rather stay on the streets then they should be penalized for it by spending time in prison. They make neighbourhoods and quality of life for everyone around go down, poor or rich doesnt matter.

User avatar
The free romanians
Envoy
 
Posts: 335
Founded: Oct 15, 2021
New York Times Democracy

Postby The free romanians » Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:12 am

We should try to stop begging
But we shouldn't make it ilegal
There are situations in which people are needing it very very much
Orthodox christian
Romanian
Romanian monarchist christian democrat distribuist and maybe agrarian
Iuliu Maniu was a chad


I have somewhat confusing tastes but idc

User avatar
Iwassoclose
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1306
Founded: Dec 08, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Iwassoclose » Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:15 am

The free romanians wrote:We should try to stop begging
But we shouldn't make it ilegal
There are situations in which people are needing it very very much


We already try to stop begging by regulations and architecture.

It has not worked

User avatar
All Wild Things
Envoy
 
Posts: 340
Founded: Apr 24, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby All Wild Things » Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:16 am

LMAO
So there are two punishments here:

1) give a fine to someone who has no money to pay it

2) give the person who is financially unable to feed and house themselves free food and lodging for up to two years.

Seems that option 2 could have a friendlier face on it, and become a progressive social policy.
Browse The NewsStand
Watch the Wild Life

User avatar
Mississippi River Country
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 14
Founded: Jul 13, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Mississippi River Country » Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:18 am

Nope. Yes, it would be great if there was welfare to support their basic needs and then make it illegal, but you just can't count on that being implemented or staying implemented. Just another way for the state to abandon people they see as burdens.
Last edited by Mississippi River Country on Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Catalonia 2070 RP
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 59
Founded: Sep 29, 2021
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Catalonia 2070 RP » Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:19 am

All Wild Things wrote:LMAO
So there are two punishments here:

1) give a fine to someone who has no money to pay it

2) give the person who is financially unable to feed and house themselves free food and lodging for up to two years.

Seems that option 2 could have a friendlier face on it, and become a progressive social policy.

yeah

User avatar
Iwassoclose
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1306
Founded: Dec 08, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Iwassoclose » Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:25 am

All Wild Things wrote:LMAO
So there are two punishments here:

1) give a fine to someone who has no money to pay it

2) give the person who is financially unable to feed and house themselves free food and lodging for up to two years.

Seems that option 2 could have a friendlier face on it, and become a progressive social policy.


More money for social services never passes. Punishment>rehabilitation. It really is a much better idea to spend the money that you would imprison them for 2 years to get them on their feet but the conservatives and even democrats would never elect to raise taxes to what people would consider welfare even if it would work out to balance the books. Rather the suggestion to sending them into prison and making sure they are treated and rehabbed in said institution is an alternative with fullfills the role.

People generally dont like seeing other get free money for no other reason than doing nothing. Its just the way things are.

User avatar
Saiwania
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20169
Founded: Jun 30, 2008
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Saiwania » Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:29 am

It should be banned in my mind because begging flat out doesn't work or rarely does. In cases where someone does make a profit, they shouldn't because it isn't sustainable. There are ways to getting money without being a nuissance to everyone around you.
Eco-Fascism is the future! I see a ton of potential for it going forward because of climate change. There will be need for a savior to rescue nature and ourselves from ourselves.

User avatar
Ethel mermania
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 118996
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ethel mermania » Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:55 am

Once I built a railroad, made it run
Made it race against time
Once I built a rairoad, now it's done
Brother can you spare a dime?
Once I built a tower to the sun
Brick and rivet and lime
Once I built a tower, now it's done
Brother can you spare a dime?
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

http://www.salientpartners.com/epsilont ... ilizations

User avatar
Kaczynskisatva
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 395
Founded: Nov 02, 2021
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Kaczynskisatva » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:01 pm

I think, street vendors should be allowed to sell their stuff, but they should not be allowed to talk at me as I'm passing by, get in my way, or generally be loud and obnoxious. It is enough for them to occupy their designated physical space, and use visual signs to make it clear what their offer is.

Beggars are just offering the service of a dopamine rush for perceiving yourself to be a altruist.

Generally speaking, there's no need to restrict something, when you can not restrict it, and it's fine. So, I think the same policy for street merchants can be applied to them, and Singaporeans, as Chinese people, have an entirely different social contract and worldview which cannot be transposed onto European societies.

In Thailand and other such countries, begging is a religious ritual performed by monks, and a religious sacrifice performed by the people who administer alms to them. Monks are famously not obnoxious, and it's probably good for people to practice charity as a personal reminder to be charitable, even if it is more efficiently administered through impersonal systems.

I am fine with the "sitting and holding a sign" beggars being legal. I've seen the police laugh and joke around with extremely drunk people while escorting them out of the metro and telling them to go home, the "escorting" in these cases having more to do with support for their balance issues than use of force. It is bad for society, in general, to task police to go around punishing people who aren't bothering other people. This makes that line of work more attractive for people who you do not want to have to deal with, as a citizen, and less attractive for people who you do want to have to deal with.

As long as beggars aren't bothering other people, they can sit with their signs. If nothing else, this lets everyone keep their finger on the pulse of the rates of poverty and social desperation, and become conscientious and accepting of the fact that they should want to pay some taxes to get these people some help. If anyone should be called to respond to these people, it's social workers. Policing is a great mechanism for terrorizing people who want to terrorize me, but it is not really a one-size-fits-all functionary role that should be deployed to whatever sort of problem.
Last edited by Kaczynskisatva on Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Maricarland
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1380
Founded: Jun 15, 2021
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Maricarland » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:04 pm

Iwassoclose wrote:I was recently talking to a friend from Singapore and they brought up that begging there was banned and people could be imprisoned for the act.

It got me thinking and I went to look it up online and it was.

Destitute Persons Act (Cap 78)[1]

Penalty for begging

4.—(1) Any person being a habitual beggar found begging in a public place in such a way as to cause or be likely to cause annoyance to persons frequenting the place or otherwise to create a nuisance shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $3,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years.

(2) In this section, "habitual beggar" means a person who on at least 2 previous occasions was found begging in a public place in such a way as to cause or be likely to cause annoyance to persons frequenting the place or otherwise to create a nuisance and was in consequence thereof required on those 2 occasions to reside in a welfare home.


This is a pretty neat way of handling the begging and homeless situation in a lot of cities.

Panhandling is a nuisance and if you have been around it you know what I am talking about. For example - you go into a store to buy a drink and then get surrounded by people waiting outside asking for change. Or people getting into your personal space to get for money. People following you and harassing you. etc

That said, I do feel for them and society should be responsible to the people who cant help themselves. If they are found begging and is homeless, there should be social programs to help them get situated into a rooming or housing situation with help to get gainful employment or medical help. If however they are habitual beggars and rather stay on the streets then they should be penalized for it by spending time in prison. They make neighbourhoods and quality of life for everyone around go down, poor or rich doesnt matter.


People are begging because they have no other choice. We should not ban begging, we should abolish poverty.
Take chances, make mistakes, get messy!
- Miss Frizzle (The Magic School Bus)

User avatar
Punished UMN
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5361
Founded: Jul 05, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:07 pm

Iwassoclose wrote:
All Wild Things wrote:LMAO
So there are two punishments here:

1) give a fine to someone who has no money to pay it

2) give the person who is financially unable to feed and house themselves free food and lodging for up to two years.

Seems that option 2 could have a friendlier face on it, and become a progressive social policy.


More money for social services never passes. Punishment>rehabilitation. It really is a much better idea to spend the money that you would imprison them for 2 years to get them on their feet but the conservatives and even democrats would never elect to raise taxes to what people would consider welfare even if it would work out to balance the books. Rather the suggestion to sending them into prison and making sure they are treated and rehabbed in said institution is an alternative with fullfills the role.

People generally dont like seeing other get free money for no other reason than doing nothing. Its just the way things are.

So what should we do then? The homeless can't really get jobs unless we provide them to them, which would require high levels of social spending.
Eastern Orthodox Christian. Prudish. Low-key bisexual. Purgatorial universalist.
Ascended beyond politics, now metapolitics is my best friend. Absolute pacifist. Proud member of the Napoleon Bonaparte fandom.
I have borderline personality disorder, if I overreact to something, try to approach me after the fact and I'll apologize.
The political compass is like hell: if you find yourself on it, keep going.
Pro: The fundamental dignitas of the human spirit as expressed through its self-actualization in theosis. Anti: Faustian-Demonic Space Anarcho-Capitalism with Italo-Futurist Characteristics

User avatar
The Holy Therns
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29561
Founded: Jul 09, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby The Holy Therns » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:09 pm

That's ridiculous. Have the state help them not have to beg, instead.
Officially better than brussels sprouts
Your new favorite.
MTF transperson. She/her. Lives in Sweden.
Also, N A N A ! ! !
Gallade wrote:Love, cake, wine and banter. No greater meaning to life (〜^∇^)〜

Ethel mermania wrote:to therns is to transend the pettiness of the field of play into the field of dreams.

User avatar
The Black Forrest
Post Czar
 
Posts: 48470
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:10 pm

Saiwania wrote:It should be banned in my mind because begging flat out doesn't work or rarely does. In cases where someone does make a profit, they shouldn't because it isn't sustainable. There are ways to getting money without being a nuissance to everyone around you.


Not as much as you think. Sure there are people who abuse it for their own gain. There are times where people have nothing. No support. I always remember one guy. He smelled from not having bathed in long time. He had mental issues(slow slurred speech and slow body motion). I ended up giving him $20 and he actually cried about it.

We could actually end this. We could take enough from the one percenters to end it and not loose one billionaire.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

User avatar
The Black Forrest
Post Czar
 
Posts: 48470
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:11 pm

The Holy Therns wrote:That's ridiculous. Have the state help them not have to beg, instead.



“But I am taxed too much already!”
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

User avatar
Maricarland
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1380
Founded: Jun 15, 2021
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Maricarland » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:14 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
The Holy Therns wrote:That's ridiculous. Have the state help them not have to beg, instead.



“But I am taxed too much already!”


We don't need taxation to fund anti-poverty spending (or any spending) at the federal level in the U.S.

The U.S. Federal Government taxes for 4 reasons.

1. To create demand for the U.S. dollar and therefore making their dollar have value.
2. To just take people's money out of circulation to reduce inflationary pressures.
3. To create a disincentive by increasing taxes on certain things and an incentive by lower taxes on other things.
4. To reduce inequality (as inequality is anti-democratic and dangerous).
Take chances, make mistakes, get messy!
- Miss Frizzle (The Magic School Bus)

User avatar
Lady Victory
Minister
 
Posts: 2420
Founded: Apr 27, 2021
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Lady Victory » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:15 pm

Here's a wild idea: how about we remove the conditions that create begging in the first place, thereby preventing them from occurring.

Admittedly it may require the complete and total abolishment of capitalism but, hey, at least we won't lose anything of actual value.
☆ American Left-wing Nationalist and Christian ☆
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."
"Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country."
"Fascism is not to be debated, it is to be destroyed!"


She/Her - Call me Jenny or LV

User avatar
Maricarland
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1380
Founded: Jun 15, 2021
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Maricarland » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:16 pm

Lady Victory wrote:Here's a wild idea: how about we remove the conditions that create begging in the first place, thereby preventing them from occurring.

Admittedly it may require the complete and total abolishment of capitalism but, hey, at least we won't lose anything of actual value.


Agreed. Excellent response.
Take chances, make mistakes, get messy!
- Miss Frizzle (The Magic School Bus)

User avatar
Iwassoclose
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1306
Founded: Dec 08, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Iwassoclose » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:23 pm

Maricarland wrote:
Lady Victory wrote:Here's a wild idea: how about we remove the conditions that create begging in the first place, thereby preventing them from occurring.

Admittedly it may require the complete and total abolishment of capitalism but, hey, at least we won't lose anything of actual value.


Agreed. Excellent response.


I will put it on the list of things thats never going to happen.

User avatar
Iwassoclose
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1306
Founded: Dec 08, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Iwassoclose » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:27 pm

Punished UMN wrote:
Iwassoclose wrote:
More money for social services never passes. Punishment>rehabilitation. It really is a much better idea to spend the money that you would imprison them for 2 years to get them on their feet but the conservatives and even democrats would never elect to raise taxes to what people would consider welfare even if it would work out to balance the books. Rather the suggestion to sending them into prison and making sure they are treated and rehabbed in said institution is an alternative with fullfills the role.

People generally dont like seeing other get free money for no other reason than doing nothing. Its just the way things are.

So what should we do then? The homeless can't really get jobs unless we provide them to them, which would require high levels of social spending.


Singapores solution is that if the person is a repeat offender they are taking to public housing and if able bodied they will be given help finding a job. After which they should be able to care for themselves. Of course some level of subsidy should supplement the help but if they return to the streets then send them to prison to reform and educated in a skill set that will help them in the workforce. While in the prison system they will have access to social services that they wouldnt otherwise.

User avatar
Senkaku
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23349
Founded: Sep 01, 2012
Father Knows Best State

Postby Senkaku » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:51 pm

Singapore also canes people for chewing gum and executes them for selling weed so maybe not the model everyone else should want to follow yeah? 21st century life is bad enough without yet another re-invention of debtors’ prisons
digitally lobotomized

User avatar
Punished UMN
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5361
Founded: Jul 05, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:52 pm

Iwassoclose wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:So what should we do then? The homeless can't really get jobs unless we provide them to them, which would require high levels of social spending.


Singapores solution is that if the person is a repeat offender they are taking to public housing and if able bodied they will be given help finding a job. After which they should be able to care for themselves. Of course some level of subsidy should supplement the help but if they return to the streets then send them to prison to reform and educated in a skill set that will help them in the workforce. While in the prison system they will have access to social services that they wouldnt otherwise.

You realize that more public housing and the kind of help finding a job would require significantly more social spending than we have currently, yes?
Eastern Orthodox Christian. Prudish. Low-key bisexual. Purgatorial universalist.
Ascended beyond politics, now metapolitics is my best friend. Absolute pacifist. Proud member of the Napoleon Bonaparte fandom.
I have borderline personality disorder, if I overreact to something, try to approach me after the fact and I'll apologize.
The political compass is like hell: if you find yourself on it, keep going.
Pro: The fundamental dignitas of the human spirit as expressed through its self-actualization in theosis. Anti: Faustian-Demonic Space Anarcho-Capitalism with Italo-Futurist Characteristics

User avatar
South Reinkalistan
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1652
Founded: Mar 12, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby South Reinkalistan » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:54 pm

who the fuck thinks that inflicting further misery on society's least fortunate is a good idea.
THE PEOPLE ETERNAL
" We will not bow to your dictation. We are free. We bled to be free.
Who are you to tell us what we may and may not do? We stopped being your slaves an era ago. "


LAST GASP OF THE OLD WORLD JOIN THE TNPL RESIST WESTERN LIBERALISM BUY OUR GUNS
aaaa I can't stop listening ;-;
Now with chapters: (1), (2), (3), (4)
OOC FACTBOOK
This nation is a story. It focuses on Reinkalistan, but reaches far beyond its borders.
NS stats were summarily executed by the Ideological Office in an old basement, where nobody can hear the gunshots.
Esoteric "Leninism"? Oh my.

Senkaku wrote:No, I’m saying you’re an aspiring fascist brute, or at least LARPing one really well online.

NEWS

User avatar
Senkaku
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23349
Founded: Sep 01, 2012
Father Knows Best State

Postby Senkaku » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:56 pm

Iwassoclose wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:So what should we do then? The homeless can't really get jobs unless we provide them to them, which would require high levels of social spending.

Singapores solution is that if the person is a repeat offender they are taking to public housing and if able bodied they will be given help finding a job. After which they should be able to care for themselves. Of course some level of subsidy should supplement the help but if they return to the streets then send them to prison to reform and educated in a skill set that will help them in the workforce. While in the prison system they will have access to social services that they wouldnt otherwise.

Singapore is an authoritarian microstate that exists as a regional tax haven/headquarters of the transatlantic capitalist empire; its public policy successes in a few sectors may be desirable and replicable (social housing, urban ecological rehabilitation, etc), but that does not make its deeply regressive views on social cleansing anything other than relics of old-school Victorian colonialism that should be disposed with as quickly as possible
Last edited by Senkaku on Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
digitally lobotomized

User avatar
GENSOC
Envoy
 
Posts: 237
Founded: Nov 12, 2021
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby GENSOC » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:58 pm

All Wild Things wrote:LMAO
So there are two punishments here:

1) give a fine to someone who has no money to pay it

2) give the person who is financially unable to feed and house themselves free food and lodging for up to two years.

Seems that option 2 could have a friendlier face on it, and become a progressive social policy.

We need a :thinking: emoji for this forum, solely for posts like OP's.
But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. The Shrine Maiden had won the victory over herself. She loved Big Youkai.
Proud Crazy Floridian lady
Burgeoning luddite
I like fishing, biking, hunting, exploring nature, shooting, muscle cars, tanks, and animals of all shapes and sizes
Biology enthusiast, environmentalist, metalhead, rye whiskey chugger, fish nerd, Transformers collector, Touhou fan, and Godzilla nut
Say no to IPAs! Drink a goddamn gose or tripel already!
I own so many guns I've lost count
D O I T A G A I N B O M B E R H A R R I S

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alkmaaria, American Legionaries, Austria-Bohemia-Hungary, Eahland, Ethel mermania, Fartsniffage, Fauzjhia, Greater Miami Shores 3, Hemakral, Hispida, Just-An-Illusion, Loeje, Necroghastia, Neuer California, Ngelmish, Perchan, Salus Maior, Sensorland, The Archregimancy, The Greater Nordics, The Huskar Social Union, The Jamesian Republic, The North Polish Union, Thermodolia, Tlaceceyaya, Untecna, Yasuragi

Advertisement

Remove ads