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Canadian MPs vote to ban conversion therapy

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Neuer California
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Canadian MPs vote to ban conversion therapy

Postby Neuer California » Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:21 pm

Its own thread as its too broad for the transgender discussion thread

The BBC wrote:Canada's House of Commons has voted unanimously to ban so-called LGBT conversion therapy.

The legislation would make it illegal to have a child undergo the practice or have anyone unwillingly undergo it.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's Liberals proposed the measure, though its passage prompted applause on both sides of the aisle.

The bill must now be approved by the upper chamber of parliament, the Senate.

Conversion therapy, which purports to change individuals' sexuality or gender identity, has been widely discredited.

The House passed an earlier version of the bill in June, but it failed to clear the Senate before Mr Trudeau called an election in September.

In emotional scenes on the House floor on Wednesday, Liberal MPs crossed the aisle to shake hands with and even hug their Conservative counterparts, reports CBC News.

Conservative Leader Erin O'Toole allowed his caucus to have a free vote on the issue.

But unanimous support for the bill caught the other side by surprise, according to Liberal MP Seamus O'Regan.

Tourism Minister Randy Boissonnault, who is also a special adviser to Mr Trudeau on LGBT issues, said: "No one can consent to torture.

"It's a great day for survivors, to know that no-one else is going to go through what they went through."

Several Conservative MPs had expressed concern the wording of the bill could criminalise private conversations about sexuality or gender identity between children and teachers, religious leaders or mental health professionals.

But Federal Justice Minister David Lametti said those objections were unfounded.


So were the MPs right to ban conversion therapy? Why or why not?

My opinion is that they were because conversion therapy doesn't work and is cruel and demeaning from everything I've heard about it. So-called ex-gay people have a higher suicide rate iirc, which can probably be laid at the feet of these organizations and the shame they bring, making this a big win for LGBT rights in Canada
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:25 pm

Yes they were. Conversion therapy is pseudoscience and harms children. Homosexuality isn’t a choice.

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Postby Comerciante » Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:26 pm

What breaks my heart is the implication that we need to have a discussion about whether or not this is right or wrong. It should be obvious, but of course, not everyone will see it that way.

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Postby Exxosia » Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:27 pm

"Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's Liberals proposed the measure, though its passage prompted applause on both sides of the aisle."

I have to wonder what was the malicious intent. It seems straightforward and positive to ban conversion therapy of children and the unwilling, while leaving it open for those you voluntarily want to pursue it. But on the other side, the Liberal party governs wholly by malicious intent. Everything they do is framed within how can they do the most damage to Canadians and humanity in general.

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Postby Neuer California » Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:32 pm

Exxosia wrote:"Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's Liberals proposed the measure, though its passage prompted applause on both sides of the aisle."

I have to wonder what was the malicious intent. It seems straightforward and positive to ban conversion therapy of children and the unwilling, while leaving it open for those you voluntarily want to pursue it. But on the other side, the Liberal party governs wholly by malicious intent. Everything they do is framed within how can they do the most damage to Canadians and humanity in general.

That's a very... Unique viewpoint you have there
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Ifreann wrote:
Suriyanakhon wrote:
Does this mean wlw is most holy in God's eyes?

It turns out that lesbians are God's chosen people.

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Postby Acrovania » Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:54 pm

Exxosia wrote:"Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's Liberals proposed the measure, though its passage prompted applause on both sides of the aisle."

I have to wonder what was the malicious intent. It seems straightforward and positive to ban conversion therapy of children and the unwilling, while leaving it open for those you voluntarily want to pursue it. But on the other side, the Liberal party governs wholly by malicious intent. Everything they do is framed within how can they do the most damage to Canadians and humanity in general.

Conversion therapy doesn't work. Pretty much all verified studies have shown it only harms the clients. And I don't know the politics of Canada, but I seriously doubt the liberals there (or anywhere really) are hellbent on the idea of inflicting "the most damage to Canadians and humanity in general." They've seen what conversion therapy is, what it does, and have concluded it would be within everyone's best interests if the practices of it are banned. What they are doing is protecting fellow Canadians from pseudoscience, plain and simple.

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Postby Vassenor » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:51 am

Exxosia wrote:"Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's Liberals proposed the measure, though its passage prompted applause on both sides of the aisle."

I have to wonder what was the malicious intent. It seems straightforward and positive to ban conversion therapy of children and the unwilling, while leaving it open for those you voluntarily want to pursue it. But on the other side, the Liberal party governs wholly by malicious intent. Everything they do is framed within how can they do the most damage to Canadians and humanity in general.


Who would voluntarily sign on to be tortured in order to change their sexuality or gender expression? And how does saying that torturing people in order to change their sexuality or gender expression is bad damage humanity as a whole?
Last edited by Vassenor on Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Page » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:51 am

Much like Saudi Arabia allowing women to drive, I can't bring myself to offer a kinder response than "what, do you want a fucking medal?" Congratulations Canada for banning organized child abuse in 20-fucking-21.
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Postby Kaczynskisatva » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:53 am

Acrovania wrote:What they are doing is protecting fellow Canadians from pseudoscience, plain and simple.


What are they going to protect them from, next? False religions?

Exxosia wrote:It seems straightforward and positive to ban conversion therapy of children and the unwilling, while leaving it open for those you voluntarily want to pursue it.


It seems straightforward to you, and to me - but not to this forum, apparently.

People can get face tattoos. They can refuse medical treatment. They can join a cult. People can do whatever they want, participate in whatever they want.

People can also choose not to participate in whatever they don't want to participate in.

Legal minors are people, so the last two observations apply to them.

The only decision that needs to be made, on this issue, is that putting legal minors through conversion therapy has not demonstrated itself to be an imperative overriding their bounded authority to make their own decisions, in the same way that they can be coerced to go to first grade. So, the general "people are free" principle underlying the Western system applies in this case.

There is no particular decision that needs to be made, on this issue. The principle of individual freedom of association is enough to cover both those who might want this, and those who don't.

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Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:00 am

Page wrote:Much like Saudi Arabia allowing women to drive, I can't bring myself to offer a kinder response than "what, do you want a fucking medal?" Congratulations Canada for banning organized child abuse in 20-fucking-21.


Only one year after Germany.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversio ... py#Germany

Well, kind of.

March 2018 the EU condemned it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversio ... March_2018

It's a bit hard to find out the legality inside the USA.

But I wouldn't be surprised if it is still legal on a per-state basis.

So yeah, i am giving a prize. Canada is moving along with other countries. So it's not a gold medal. But a participation trophy :)
Last edited by The Blaatschapen on Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Vassenor » Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:07 am

Kaczynskisatva wrote:
Acrovania wrote:What they are doing is protecting fellow Canadians from pseudoscience, plain and simple.


What are they going to protect them from, next? False religions?

Exxosia wrote:It seems straightforward and positive to ban conversion therapy of children and the unwilling, while leaving it open for those you voluntarily want to pursue it.


It seems straightforward to you, and to me - but not to this forum, apparently.

People can get face tattoos. They can refuse medical treatment. They can join a cult. People can do whatever they want, participate in whatever they want.

People can also choose not to participate in whatever they don't want to participate in.

Legal minors are people, so the last two observations apply to them.

The only decision that needs to be made, on this issue, is that putting legal minors through conversion therapy has not demonstrated itself to be an imperative overriding their bounded authority to make their own decisions, in the same way that they can be coerced to go to first grade. So, the general "people are free" principle underlying the Western system applies in this case.

There is no particular decision that needs to be made, on this issue. The principle of individual freedom of association is enough to cover both those who might want this, and those who don't.


How dare we say that torturing people to change their sexuality or gender expression (which doesn’t actually work anyway) is bad.
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Postby Hukhalia » Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:38 am

the fact that we're appealing to "freedom of association" regarding this matter at all shows that the entire debate is fucked.
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Postby Vassenor » Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:44 am

For that matter who has actually gone in for conversion therapy willingly and without being coerced by a third party?
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Postby Neuer California » Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:58 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Page wrote:Much like Saudi Arabia allowing women to drive, I can't bring myself to offer a kinder response than "what, do you want a fucking medal?" Congratulations Canada for banning organized child abuse in 20-fucking-21.


Only one year after Germany.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversio ... py#Germany

Well, kind of.

March 2018 the EU condemned it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversio ... March_2018

It's a bit hard to find out the legality inside the USA.

But I wouldn't be surprised if it is still legal on a per-state basis.

So yeah, i am giving a prize. Canada is moving along with other countries. So it's not a gold medal. But a participation trophy :)

It's pretty much state by state (and in some cases, municipality by municipality). Wikipedia has a list. My state was the first to pass a ban, but the second to implement it.
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Suriyanakhon wrote:
Does this mean wlw is most holy in God's eyes?

It turns out that lesbians are God's chosen people.

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Postby Disgraces » Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:05 am

Vassenor wrote:For that matter who has actually gone in for conversion therapy willingly and without being coerced by a third party?

Lots of people probably

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Postby Vassenor » Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:21 am

Disgraces wrote:
Vassenor wrote:For that matter who has actually gone in for conversion therapy willingly and without being coerced by a third party?

Lots of people probably


Weasel words aren’t that convincing.
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Postby Diahon » Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:22 am

Page wrote:Much like Saudi Arabia allowing women to drive, I can't bring myself to offer a kinder response than "what, do you want a fucking medal?" Congratulations Canada for banning organized child abuse in 20-fucking-21.

consider

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Postby Kaczynskisatva » Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:28 am

Vassenor wrote:How dare we say that torturing people to change their sexuality or gender expression (which doesn’t actually work anyway) is bad.


You can say that, if you want to.

Some gay people like to be tied up in black leather suits and whipped, with electrodes attached to their nipples - and that's just the PG-13 trailer.

If they get off on doing that, and are allowed to do it on that basis, then if they get off to trying to "pray out the gay" they can do that, too. I can think of more debasing things that go on in the gay community, than people trying to find their way out of it. If gays are allowed to do, uhh, bondage scat parties, they should at least be allowed to get religion.

Hukhalia wrote:the fact that we're appealing to "freedom of association" regarding this matter at all shows that the entire debate is fucked.


I want you to slowly read that comment back to yourself, and try to count the things about which arguments are being made, and what those arguments are.
Last edited by Kaczynskisatva on Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Vassenor » Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:32 am

Kaczynskisatva wrote:
Vassenor wrote:How dare we say that torturing people to change their sexuality or gender expression (which doesn’t actually work anyway) is bad.


You can say that, if you want to.

Some gay people like to be tied up in black leather suits and whipped, with electrodes attached to their nipples - and that's just the PG-13 trailer.

If they get off on doing that, and are allowed to do it on that basis, then if they get off to trying to "pray out the gay" they can do that, too. I can think of more debasing things that go on in the gay community, than people trying to find their way out of it. If gays are allowed to do, uhh, bondage scat parties, they should at least be allowed to get religion.

Hukhalia wrote:the fact that we're appealing to "freedom of association" regarding this matter at all shows that the entire debate is fucked.


I want you to slowly read that comment back to yourself, and try to count the things about which arguments are being made, and what those arguments are.


Why don’t you start by proving this edge case even exists.
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Postby Comerciante » Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:32 am

Kaczynskisatva wrote:
Vassenor wrote:How dare we say that torturing people to change their sexuality or gender expression (which doesn’t actually work anyway) is bad.


You can say that if you want to.

Some gay people like to be tied up in black leather suits and whipped, with electrodes attached to their nipples - and that's just the PG-13 trailer.

Well, gee it's almost like it's consensual or something and some straight people enjoy it too and there are things like safe words and rules...

Where conversion therapy is actual torture condemned by actual governments and international organizations.
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Postby Disgraces » Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:39 am

Vassenor wrote:
Disgraces wrote:Lots of people probably


Weasel words aren’t that convincing.

I mean it's obvious

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Postby Vassenor » Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:40 am

Disgraces wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Weasel words aren’t that convincing.

I mean it's obvious


If it’s obvious it won’t be hard to find examples then.
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Postby Disgraces » Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:45 am

Vassenor wrote:
Disgraces wrote:I mean it's obvious


If it’s obvious it won’t be hard to find examples then.

What makes you think people haven't done it

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Postby Diahon » Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:47 am

go find them yourself, if you want us to give a shit about you spewing shit, or stop talking shit

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