Rugby World Cups bid (RUWC 31/RLWC 20)

[Quintessence of Dust]

Quintessence of Dust and Hannasea are jointly bidding to host the Rugby World Cups (RUWC 31 and RLWC 20).

Each nation can choose to enter one or both competitions, which will be run alongside one another with synchronized cutoffs. Assuming approximately equal numbers of teams in each, the schedules should overlap, but an off-day will be built in to one if necessary to ensure things remain closely aligned.

Format and scorination

Both tournaments will use seeded groups, playing single round robin; depending on signup numbers the top 8 – or, if more than 32 teams enter, top 16 – will proceed to a single elimination knockout bracket. There will be a third place match in each.

Scorination for each will use the respective modified SQIS file with AttackCoeffs increased to make scores more realistic. Style modifiers will be permitted but limited to the ±2 range.

The RUWC will be seeded using the full official RUWC rankings, and scorinated with rankings incorporating results from only the last two editions (29 and 30).

The RLWC will be seeded using the full official RLWC rankings, and scorinated with rankings incorporating results from only the last RLWC (19).

RP bonus

There will be a roster bonus and a daily cumulative RP bonus. The RP bonus function of xkoranate will be used with bonus set at 25%.

Roster bonus is applied per team, not per nation. If someone enters both competitions but only rosters for one, they will earn roster bonus only towards that competition. If they enter both, their roster bonus from one will not apply to the other.

RP bonus is applied per nation, not per team. A user entering only one competition can still earn maximum RP bonus. A user entering both competitions will earn the same RP bonus for both their teams from a single RP, irrespective of whether that RP is about rugby union, rugby league, or neither.

This set-up seems the fairest compromise.

Host nations

Quintessence of Dust will host the rugby union matches. QoD is a PMT nation with a long if rather sporadic history in world sports. The “melting pot that did not melt” nation is ethnically diverse; it is known for its anti-slavery activism, extreme republicanism and secularism, and exceptionally low levels of government corruption. Stadiums will be based in the north of the country (the south is too cold) and some matches may be played on the Quodite Lunar colony (transportation will be provided).

Hannasea will host the rugby league matches. The Guild Federation is a medium-sized nation in the Esportivan Alps. A prosperous, pacifist country built on a legacy of trading and finance, Hannasea has a beautiful natural environment and the internal combustion engine has been banned; transport via rail, tram or electric bus will be provided where necessary. Games will be played in Ultimate Rugby grounds as Hannasea seeks to grow its rugby league infrastructure.

Both nations are controlled by the same user, for the purposes of this thread identified as QoD. Previous host of RWC 12 and the Six Nations Trophy; also two World Cups of Hockey and a Cup of Harmony (soccer). Hannasea has previously hosted a World Cup of Hockey and a Campionato Esportiva (soccer). I have hosted various other tournaments in various other sports with various other nations.

[Quebec and Shingoryeo]

Excellent bid. Thank you for taking the initiative to move things forward with rugby. Just a couple of questions. They won't change my mind on how positive I think about this bid after all:

Quintessence of Dust and Hannasea are jointly bidding to host the Rugby World Cups (RUWC 31 and RLWC 20).

Each nation can choose to enter one or both competitions, which will be run alongside one another with synchronized cutoffs. Assuming approximately equal numbers of teams in each, the schedules should overlap, but an off-day will be built in to one if necessary to ensure things remain closely aligned.

Would synchronised cutoffs mean the results would be posted on the same post? Or would there be two different cutoffs but on same day? I assume former, but I also remember there was one time when you hosted a major tournament with morning cutoff and another on the same day but on evenings.

Also, should we expect your cutoff windows to happen on mornings or evenings?

Scorination for each will use the respective modified SQIS file with AttackCoeffs increased to make scores more realistic. Style modifiers will be permitted but limited to the ±2 range.

For rugby union, will you be using modified SQIS file made by either Ko-oren/myself or Kelssek, or be making another modified SQIS file on your own? This is not really a big deal, but just wanted to be clear.

A user entering both competitions will earn the same RP bonus for both their teams from a single RP, irrespective of whether that RP is about rugby union, rugby league, or neither.

This set-up seems the fairest compromise.

Am a fan of this, especially considering that there's a solid number of nations that will sign up for both - myself included.

[Hannasea]

There will be the same cutoff for both. Once I've cutoff I'll scorinate the results and then post them one after another. 90% of the time in hosting is reading/grading RPs especially for a relatively straightforward sport like rugby so I'd hope to post the results for one fairly soon after the other, not more than a few minutes apart.

I'm not sure what time cutoffs will be, but I'd be willing to put out a preference survey as I did for World Bowl. Rugby has a more international audience than that sport so there's probably no time that's ideal for everyone.

I cannot remember who made the SQIS file I've been using, whether it was you, Kelssek, or me! The one I have increases AttackCoeffsA to 2.5 and B to 2, which seems to produce results broadly in line with RL (about 50 ppg).

[Quebec and Shingoryeo]

Got it. Awesome sauce. Thank you!

[Aji No Moto]

For RUWC, will you be using the bonus points determination such as bonus points for losing by 7 points or fewer, and scoring four or more tries, and if yes, how would the latter be implemented?

[Quintessence of Dust]

For RUWC, will you be using the bonus points determination such as bonus points for losing by 7 points or fewer, and scoring four or more tries, and if yes, how would the latter be implemented?

That is a very good question about a detail that I should have remembered to include. Yes, except instead of scoring 4 tries, it will be scoring 28 points (equivalent of 4 converted tries) as the score breakdown is not given by the scorinator. 4 points for a win, 2 points for a draw, 1 bonus point available.

As I understand RL rarely uses bonus points, there will not be an equivalent used in the RLWC.

[Sarzonia]

My only potential concern for a "joint bid" between two separate IC countries controlled by the same player is workload that's usually split between two players is handled by one person.

That said, considering your history (and the history of another player whose tournaments I frequent), it's only something I bring up out of more of a curiosity in your case. If I were to compete in either or both of these tournaments, I would do so with no reservations OOCly if you were chosen to host both tournaments.

[Nova Anglicana]

For RUWC, will you be using the bonus points determination such as bonus points for losing by 7 points or fewer, and scoring four or more tries, and if yes, how would the latter be implemented?

That is a very good question about a detail that I should have remembered to include. Yes, except instead of scoring 4 tries, it will be scoring 28 points (equivalent of 4 converted tries) as the score breakdown is not given by the scorinator. 4 points for a win, 2 points for a draw, 1 bonus point available.

As I understand RL rarely uses bonus points, there will not be an equivalent used in the RLWC.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=327997&p=24173097&hilit=bonus+point#p24173097

This was back in the earlier 20s regarding bonus points

[Quintessence of Dust]

Fair comment, Sarzonia. Mitigating is that having one user grade all the RPs keeps things consistent.

Nova, I used 28 points as most users would, I'd expect, RP such a score as 4 tries, but I'm not wedded to it if there's precedent. I'll dig through older tournaments and see how consistent the standard has been.

[Ko-oren]

Roster bonus is applied per team, not per nation. If someone enters both competitions but only rosters for one, they will earn roster bonus only towards that competition. If they enter both, their roster bonus from one will not apply to the other.

RP bonus is applied per nation, not per team. A user entering only one competition can still earn maximum RP bonus. A user entering both competitions will earn the same RP bonus for both their teams from a single RP, irrespective of whether that RP is about rugby union, rugby league, or neither.

I've been thinking about how to split the tournament bonus since I pitched the idea for the rugby presidency, but I think you've come up with a very elegant solution. I have no issues with one person scorinating both and I'm always in favour of consistent RP grading.

What is your plan if the tournaments have different participation numbers? The RUWC has drawn consistently drawn larger crowds than the RLWC, for instance. (How) will this affect RP bonus and timing?

I'm not too fussed about bonus points. Rugby league doesn't have them. In an RP from *a while back* I found that rugby union bonus points haven't exactly mattered in the RUWC either. I'm fine with 28 points, 33 points, anything, as that limit has been raised and lowered from tournament to tournament in the past, and I see no reason to 'fix' it in place.

[Quintessence of Dust]

Thanks Ko-oren and for those not aware this bid is basically stealing an idea he first proposed, albeit with a slightly different system of handling RP bonus; all blame my own yadda yadda.

What is your plan if the tournaments have different participation numbers? The RUWC has drawn consistently drawn larger crowds than the RLWC, for instance. (How) will this affect RP bonus and timing?

The aim is to make each tournament have approximately the same number of cutoffs. If different group sizes mean one would need an extra cutoff, then I'll make teams in the other eligible to receive RP bonus on bye days. For example, if we had 32 and 24, one would be 8x4 > Round of 16 > Quarterfinals, the other 6x4 > Playoff round > Quarterfinals.

Obviously, I'm putting the cart before the horse a little in pitching a bid before signups, but I think if the tournaments run alongside one another there's a good chance of a reasonable equivalence in signup numbers for both.

[Liventia]

Former RUWC host chiming in here. On bonus points: viewtopic.php?p=26201981#p26201981

(Unfortunately, ESPN Scrum's absorption into Wider ESPN seems to have ended Statsguru for rugby.)

[The Licentian Isles]

Appreciate the move from QoD to move things forward here, thank you.

I'm in favour of this, largely because, as someone who would only sign up for union, there's no punishment for doing so. I think both running alongside each other, with a single experienced hosts, could very well solve the problems that rugby has had in terms of competition consistency, and I'm very glad that that doesn't come at the cost of punishing those only interested in one code.

[Bostopia]

Both codes at the same idea sounds a superb idea, might get some more converts over to the superiority of League. Though on a serious note, I don't see why scorinating both at the same time should cause any problems, and also thank you for putting a bid in that also includes Rugby League.

edit: following comments in the discussion thread, namely "This is one reason why I favour overlapping tournaments. I prefer union to league, and I'm looking forward to a new union world cup. Why do I have to wait for a competition in a sport I'm less interested in?" I have some concerns about how well looked after the League tournament will be as it appears to be tacked on by the potential host for the sake of getting a union tournament in.

[Quebec and Shingoryeo]

I agree with both Bostopia and Licen over this matter.

In the meanwhile, I have received reports that NSRB is considering to keep RU and R7, but also to remove RL from it under the grounds of personal preferences and animosity over another users.

This is a far better way to handle things, even though I do not know where the long-disproved illusion of 'it's going to hurt people who only sign up for one of the two codes' comes from.

[Hannasea]

edit: following comments in the discussion thread, namely "This is one reason why I favour overlapping tournaments. I prefer union to league, and I'm looking forward to a new union world cup. Why do I have to wait for a competition in a sport I'm less interested in?" I have some concerns about how well looked after the League tournament will be as it appears to be tacked on by the potential host for the sake of getting a union tournament in.

No, I do want there to be another RLWC. When I rejoined NS last year, ~15 months ago, the first competition I took part in was RLWC. Since then there have been four football World Cups (plus many discussions about how they're not happening frequently enough), two RUWCs, three Olympic Games, and multiple editions of tournaments in everything from baseball and American football to volleyball and lacrosse. And still no new RLWC!

This debate about alternating RLWC/RUWC predates NSRB; I can remember having this debate on the Jolt forums. I just think running them both at the same time is a good way of ensuring they both take place without worrying that by holding one, the other will be delayed months longer.

[Azertian Malanesia]

For what it's worth, I'm pretty much only lurking the forum anymore in order to eventually participate in the league world cup. I know the sport is mostly dead IRL outside of a few places, so I guess this is a fitting result on NS too, but I've been looking forward to it for a while, but it's just been dead air.

[Lisander]

I have received reports that NSRB is considering to keep RU and R7, but also to remove RL from it under the grounds of personal preferences and animosity over another users.

Lies. Everything was explained properly. And I feel offended if you write things this way.

[Quintessence of Dust]

OK, so, it's been ~3 weeks and no competing bid has been posted. It was my aim to run this during the off-window of the football WC, and signups for the next edition have started, so I think that's due notice.

I'd like to run a vote on this bid. We will need:

• Someone to act as vote collector.
• A franchise. My suggestion: everyone who competed in the last RUWC, and everyone who competed in the last RLWC.
• A question. My suggestion: straight Accept/Reject.

[The Licentian Isles]

QoD, there has been some question over whether ranks would be used for the RLWC given the amount of time that has passed since the last one (and I am personally in favour of them being used). Do you still intend to use the rankings as described in your initial bid?

As to your point above, as stated in the rugby discussion thread, I would be willing to administer a vote in the absence of any other leadership at this time. I would agree that all who have participated in the last RUWC and RLWC should be allowed to vote. My only question would be, should we have separate questions on whether to accept this bid for each tournament? I have no strong feelings for that, I just think it is worth raising.

[Hannasea]

(I'm going to answer as Hannasea as I'm trying to stick to answering Union questions with QoD, League with Hannasea).

QoD, there has been some question over whether ranks would be used for the RLWC given the amount of time that has passed since the last one (and I am personally in favour of them being used). Do you still intend to use the rankings as described in your initial bid?

Yes. While it's been a year, I'm in favour of rankings for a tournament with a short group stage (which is one possible format) because otherwise it can be far too random. This is just for this bid, though; whether or not rankings should be reworked going forward for future tournaments if the RLWC is held more regularly is a topic for another day.

Thanks for the offer. I've also received a vote collection offer from The Plough Islands. Given they're pretty neutral, having not been involved in any of these discussions, I would like to take them up on it.

My only question would be, should we have separate questions on whether to accept this bid for each tournament? I have no strong feelings for that, I just think it is worth raising.

Personally, I am strongly pushing for a straight accept/reject question. This bid is meant to be for both tournaments, so if someone doesn't want me to host one half of it, then they should vote Reject. I believe it is fair for me to request this be the vote question because it makes it more likely my bid will be voted down.

[The Licentian Isles]

(I'm going to answer as Hannasea as I'm trying to stick to answering Union questions with QoD, League with Hannasea).

QoD, there has been some question over whether ranks would be used for the RLWC given the amount of time that has passed since the last one (and I am personally in favour of them being used). Do you still intend to use the rankings as described in your initial bid?

Yes. While it's been a year, I'm in favour of rankings for a tournament with a short group stage (which is one possible format) because otherwise it can be far too random. This is just for this bid, though; whether or not rankings should be reworked going forward for future tournaments if the RLWC is held more regularly is a topic for another day.

Thanks for the offer. I've also received a vote collection offer from The Plough Islands. Given they're pretty neutral, having not been involved in any of these discussions, I would like to take them up on it.

My only question would be, should we have separate questions on whether to accept this bid for each tournament? I have no strong feelings for that, I just think it is worth raising.

Personally, I am strongly pushing for a straight accept/reject question. This bid is meant to be for both tournaments, so if someone doesn't want me to host one half of it, then they should vote Reject. I believe it is fair for me to request this be the vote question because it makes it more likely my bid will be voted down.

I'd say those are both fair responses, thank you. I'm also very much in favour of Plough collecting votes as a neutral party in this case.

[The Plough Islands]

There is now a vote being held on the merits of this bid, as below - apologies for the crosspost;

My plan is to open the vote (using a puppet) at around midday (UTC) on Wednesday the 17th of November

Apologies for the slight delay, but the vote is now open! This will be a vote solely on the merits of this bid, as outlined in the bid thread, and will be a simple choice to either

> Accept the joint bid by Quintessence of Dust & Hannasea to host the 31st Rugby Union World Cup and the 20th Rugby League World Cup simultaneously;
or
> Reject the joint bid by Quintessence of Dust & Hannasea to host the 31st Rugby Union World Cup and the 20th Rugby League World Cup simultaneously.

Please vote only by telegram to Lymonia. Votes will be counted from the following nations;

Abanhfleft (includes Copper Cuprum)
Aji no Moto
Ancharmunn
Baggieland
Bostopia
Busoga Islands
Croblade
Darmen
Dursea
Elejamie (includes Placely Placington)
Fancy Bois
Hebitaka
HUElavia
Ideal Britain
Jeckland
Kayangan
Kelssek
Ko-oren
Kriegiersien
Krysha
Lisander (includes Alice Bay)
Logria
Lovisa
Mathuvan Union
Megistos
Natanians and Nosts
Neu Engollon (includes Hutanjia)
New Lunenburg
Northwest Kalactin
Nova Anglicana
Oscioru
Port Ember (includes Port Arthur PE)
Pratapgadh
† Quebec and Shingoryeo (includes Quebecois Acadiana)
Quintessence of Dust (includes Hannasea)
Rwekazaland
Saint-Domingues
Sajnur
Sandwichs
Sannyamathland
Savojarna
Silvedania
Space
Staypuftonia
Terre Septentrionale
The Fair Republic
The Jovannic
TJUN-ia
Trolleborg
United Hemand Insia
United States of Devonta
Vdara
West Phoenicia
Arjunnagar
Barunia
Bollonich
Desotania
The Grearish Union
Hatefulness
Ingla Terra
Malandrin
San Ortelio
Srednjaci
The Licentian Isles

† user known as Royal Kingdom of Quebec at the time of RUWC 30

Please let me know ASAP if you have any issues - in particular, I've done my level best to make sure the list of voters is comprehensive, but it's possible I've missed a master/puppet connection somewhere. The vote will run until 18:00 (UTC) on the 24th November 2021, at which point I will post the results in this thread, and let the rugby community take it from there.

EDIT: List of eligible voters and deadline updated to reflect changes on main RDT.