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Re: Claim on Columbus

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Regarding the claim

1. I vote for the Spanish claim. Columbus is a net glory gain.
11
50%
2. I vote for the Spanish claim. Columbia is a net glory loss.
3
14%
3. I vote for the Italian claim. Columbus is a net glory gain.
5
23%
4. I vote for the Italian claim. Columbus is a net glory loss.
3
14%
 
Total votes : 22

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Infected Mushroom
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Re: Claim on Columbus

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:11 am

Please consider the following hypothetical:

Christopher Columbus is widely regarded as the person who “discovered the New World.” This was definitely the narrative that I was taught when going to primary school in Canada (there was even an animated series airing at the time which glorified Columbus as a sensitive, adventurous, benevolent explorer).

In this hypothetical, it is 2031 and most of Europe is bankrupt. However, a “Claim on Columbus” (whether it’s a net glory gain or net glory loss) results in a mass transfer of credits from a supernatural bank.

Italy has made a claim, citing that Columbus was born in Genoa and seems to be ethnically Italian. Genoa is part of present day Italy.

Spain has made a competing claim, saying that what matters is that his expedition was financed by the Spanish (or the precursor to what would become the Spanish state). Hence, just as we consider Napoleon French because his greatest achievements were in the service of France, so should we consider Columbus Spanish. He spent more of his life in Spain and Portugal than in Italy.

You are on the board and you can cast your vote in four directions (keep in mind that the ruling on net glory doesn’t affect who gets the monetary credits from the claim):

1. I vote for the Spanish claim. Columbus is a net glory gain.
2. I vote for the Spanish claim. Columbia is a net glory loss.
3. I vote for the Italian claim. Columbus is a net glory gain.
4. I vote for the Italian claim. Columbus is a net glory loss.

Discuss and justify. In light of his achievements, heritage, place of birth, time spent in either country and other considerations, is he more Spanish or Italian?

Should that country be proud to have him?

I think that Spain should get the claim. The analogy would be that Napoleon is considered French even though he was technically born in Italian Corsica. His life’s highlights were during his time in the service of Spain; also, he preferred to read and write in Castilian.

I think he is a net glory gain because above all else he’s an intrepid, imaginative, and risk-taking explorer. He influenced history and that’s huge. Are his actions entirely moral? No, but he was a product of his time.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:19 am

Neither credits nor glory are things anyone cares about.
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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:23 am

Reminder that Columbus was roundly criticised for his acts during his own time.

Also I will not stand for this erasure of Leif Erikson.
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Kannap
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Postby Kannap » Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:48 am

Where's the option for me to vote that I believe Christopher Columbus was a piece of shit?
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Roegerland
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Postby Roegerland » Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:54 am

Kannap wrote:Where's the option for me to vote that I believe Christopher Columbus was a piece of shit?

zzzzz
✸✸✸✸✸

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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:56 am

Roegerland wrote:
Kannap wrote:Where's the option for me to vote that I believe Christopher Columbus was a piece of shit?

zzzzz


It's true though.
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Postby Dakini » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:08 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:Christopher Columbus is widely regarded as the person who “discovered the New World.” This was definitely the narrative that I was taught when going to primary school in Canada (there was even an animated series airing at the time which glorified Columbus as a sensitive, adventurous, benevolent explorer).

You and I had very different experiences with education in Canada.

We spent a tiny amount of time on Columbus, especially compared to all the time we spent learning about Leif Eriksson, Jacques Cartier and the exploration of the Arctic.

Should that country be proud to have him?

No country should be proud to have him. He was a genocidal rapist and a slaver.

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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:12 am

Dakini wrote:No country should be proud to have him. He was a genocidal rapist and a slaver.


And that's not just "applying modern values to historical figures." He was criticisised for it at the time.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:39 am

Dakini wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:Christopher Columbus is widely regarded as the person who “discovered the New World.” This was definitely the narrative that I was taught when going to primary school in Canada (there was even an animated series airing at the time which glorified Columbus as a sensitive, adventurous, benevolent explorer).

You and I had very different experiences with education in Canada.

We spent a tiny amount of time on Columbus, especially compared to all the time we spent learning about Leif Eriksson, Jacques Cartier and the exploration of the Arctic.

The Viking settlement at L’Anse aux Meadows, Newfoundland, was recently dated to exactly 1021 CE. They're able to narrow it down so precisely because they know there was a solar storm in 992, and the radiation from that is detectable in the wood, and from there it's good old fashioned counting tree rings. Who cares about Columbus when there's cool shit like this?
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The Onox Legion
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Postby The Onox Legion » Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:46 am

Yeah, Leif Erickson is far cooler than chrissy.
His family were pretty interesting as well
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:48 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:Christopher Columbus is widely regarded as the person who “discovered the New World.” This was definitely the narrative that I was taught when going to primary school in Canada (there was even an animated series airing at the time which glorified Columbus as a sensitive, adventurous, benevolent explorer).

You’re experience with Canadian education is widely different then any Canadian I’ve ever known. Canada is the landing site of Vikings and Cabot, much more important then Columbus to Canadians.

In this hypothetical, it is 2031 and most of Europe is bankrupt. However, a “Claim on Columbus” (whether it’s a net glory gain or net glory loss) results in a mass transfer of credits from a supernatural bank.

Just… why?
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Umbratellus
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Postby Umbratellus » Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:49 am

I think the obvious answer here is to reestablish the Roman Empire. If Italy and Spain are part of the same superstate, it becomes a moot question and all the glory goes to Rome.

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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:52 am

I'm pretty sure that this is a thinly veiled +1/-1 Forum 7 game.
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The V I C
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Postby The V I C » Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:55 am

I vote that both Italy and Spain have to pay reparations to the Taino people for the horrors that Columbus wrought. No reward for employing a killer.
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The V I C
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Postby The V I C » Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:56 am

Umbratellus wrote:I think the obvious answer here is to reestablish the Roman Empire. If Italy and Spain are part of the same superstate, it becomes a moot question and all the glory goes to Rome.


Mussolini tried to do that. He got stopped at Greece, then when things couldn't get any worse, he was thrown out of his own government and later murdered.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:00 am

Heloin wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:Christopher Columbus is widely regarded as the person who “discovered the New World.” This was definitely the narrative that I was taught when going to primary school in Canada (there was even an animated series airing at the time which glorified Columbus as a sensitive, adventurous, benevolent explorer).

You’re experience with Canadian education is widely different then any Canadian I’ve ever known. Canada is the landing site of Vikings and Cabot, much more important then Columbus to Canadians.

In this hypothetical, it is 2031 and most of Europe is bankrupt. However, a “Claim on Columbus” (whether it’s a net glory gain or net glory loss) results in a mass transfer of credits from a supernatural bank.

Just… why?

If IM doesn't invent some magical reward for claiming Columbus then no one would give a shit.


Of course, we don't give a shit despite the magical reward, because IM seems to think that the currency of the EU is "credits". Just bizarre ignorance.
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Umbratellus
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Postby Umbratellus » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:02 am

The V I C wrote:
Umbratellus wrote:I think the obvious answer here is to reestablish the Roman Empire. If Italy and Spain are part of the same superstate, it becomes a moot question and all the glory goes to Rome.


Mussolini tried to do that. He got stopped at Greece, then when things couldn't get any worse, he was thrown out of his own government and later murdered.

Well, you know the ol’ saying; “if at first you don’t succeed; try, try again.”

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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:06 am

Ifreann wrote:
Heloin wrote:You’re experience with Canadian education is widely different then any Canadian I’ve ever known. Canada is the landing site of Vikings and Cabot, much more important then Columbus to Canadians.


Just… why?

If IM doesn't invent some magical reward for claiming Columbus then no one would give a shit.


Of course, we don't give a shit despite the magical reward, because IM seems to think that the currency of the EU is "credits". Just bizarre ignorance.

Because the EU is some kind of space fairing trade empire, clearly. You should know this Iffy, you live on Luna colony of New Éire.
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Kannap
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Postby Kannap » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:08 am

Ifreann wrote:
Heloin wrote:You’re experience with Canadian education is widely different then any Canadian I’ve ever known. Canada is the landing site of Vikings and Cabot, much more important then Columbus to Canadians.


Just… why?

If IM doesn't invent some magical reward for claiming Columbus then no one would give a shit.


Of course, we don't give a shit despite the magical reward, because IM seems to think that the currency of the EU is "credits". Just bizarre ignorance.


The credits are coming from a supernatural bank and are clearly the currency of the supernatural. Completely useless to Earthling bankrupt nations, but let's ignore that.
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Rio Cana
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Postby Rio Cana » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:28 am

When it comes to Columbus, some sources say Columbus was actually Catalan. He said he was from what is today Italy since he had been a Catalan pirate. If the Castilian/Aragon royals had found out that he had been a pirate chances are he would not have survived. So he said he was from Italy. This also explains why he tended to write Spanish or Catalan. Also, they say he named some places in the Catalan language.

Kind of off-topic - Someone mentioned the Taino natives. The following musical instrument (see video) which is played with a stick is considered a type of instrument played by the Taino. Maracas, the Maracas are also native. Together with European string/wind instruments and African drum instruments that were brought to the Caribbean by these new people created overtime the following which has even been accepted by the Japanese which is a culture which tends to keep to there own culture.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOVe45rj-Po&t=135s
Last edited by Rio Cana on Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby The Holy Therns » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:29 am

I dunno, that dictator witch from several IM threads back.
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:32 am

The Holy Therns wrote:I dunno, that dictator witch from several IM threads back.


Witch Queen Annie Holstadt?

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Dakini
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Postby Dakini » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:35 am

Vassenor wrote:
Dakini wrote:No country should be proud to have him. He was a genocidal rapist and a slaver.


And that's not just "applying modern values to historical figures." He was criticisised for it at the time.

Indeed. People of his time thought he was terrible because he fucking was terrible.

Ifreann wrote:
Dakini wrote:You and I had very different experiences with education in Canada.

We spent a tiny amount of time on Columbus, especially compared to all the time we spent learning about Leif Eriksson, Jacques Cartier and the exploration of the Arctic.

The Viking settlement at L’Anse aux Meadows, Newfoundland, was recently dated to exactly 1021 CE. They're able to narrow it down so precisely because they know there was a solar storm in 992, and the radiation from that is detectable in the wood, and from there it's good old fashioned counting tree rings. Who cares about Columbus when there's cool shit like this?

Yeah, it's pretty exciting. I'm still sort of sad that I never got to visit L'Anse aux Meadows when I visited Newfoundland (it doesn't look like a huge island, but it's not a small island and it has terrible public transport).

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Dakini
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Postby Dakini » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:36 am

Heloin wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:Christopher Columbus is widely regarded as the person who “discovered the New World.” This was definitely the narrative that I was taught when going to primary school in Canada (there was even an animated series airing at the time which glorified Columbus as a sensitive, adventurous, benevolent explorer).

You’re experience with Canadian education is widely different then any Canadian I’ve ever known. Canada is the landing site of Vikings and Cabot, much more important then Columbus to Canadians.

I'm beginning to suspect that IM slept through history classes and picked up his historical knowledge from American cartoons.

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Kannap
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Postby Kannap » Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:23 am

Dakini wrote:
Heloin wrote:You’re experience with Canadian education is widely different then any Canadian I’ve ever known. Canada is the landing site of Vikings and Cabot, much more important then Columbus to Canadians.

I'm beginning to suspect that IM slept through history classes and picked up his historical knowledge from American cartoons.


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