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Polexit!

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Polexit?

(I am a Polish citizen) YEA, Polish sovereignty all the way, kurwa!
2
1%
(I am a Polish citizen) NAY, we stay in and get all the money we can get while applying only the bits we like, kurwa!
3
2%
(I am a Polish citizen) NAY, we stay in and respect EU law supremacy, kurwa!
5
3%
(I am a non-Polish EU citizen) YEA, get those freeloaders out, merde!
12
7%
(I am a non-Polish EU citizen) YEA, the EU is evil anyway! I hope my country gets out too, carajo!
6
4%
(I am a non-Polish EU citizen) NAY, they can stay in and apply only the bits they like, perkele!
11
6%
(I am a non-Polish EU citizen) NAY, they must respect the treatises they signed, cazzo!
21
12%
(I am not an EU citizen) YEA! (because...)
51
30%
(I am not an EU citizen) NAY! (because...)
34
20%
Option 10 is for weaklings.
25
15%
 
Total votes : 170

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Risottia
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Polexit!

Postby Risottia » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:07 am

So, Poland, via its supreme court, has rejected one of the core principles of the EU treatises, that is the supremacy of EU law over national law.
This, according to the EU institutions, undermines the role of Poland in the EU - although topmost official are shy of stating that Poland left the EU de facto by this ruling.
The Polish cabinet accuses the EU of blackmailing their country, while some of its ministers have already stated that they could stay in the Union just as long as they're net receivers in the EU budget (a polite way of saying "freeloaders").
The problem is that since Poland does not recognise the supremacy of EU laws anymore, even the Lisbon Treaty, which includes the leaving procedure (art.50, the one invoked by the UK for Brexit), is not applicable by Poland.
I'd say it's time to bring Poland in front of the ECJ and sanction them out of any EU money. Then they'll either change or leave, which is a win-win proposition for the EU; not so much for a rather large minority of Polish citizens who would prefer to stay within the Union.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-58955375
So, what do you think? Also, poll time!

edit: for those suggesting that Britain should declare war on the EU, here's what Binkov says about it: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hWhFZJmm0_Q
Last edited by Risottia on Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Relden
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Ex-Nation

Postby Relden » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:09 am

Foreign law should never take position above national law.

Poland have been doing good work recently, and they should tell the E.U. where to go.
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Vikanias
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Postby Vikanias » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:12 am

Ah Poland, when have you ever done anything like this? You get them little buddy.
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:14 am

Relden wrote:Foreign law should never take position above national law.

EU law isn't "foreign", as Poland is a full-fledged EU member. Also, Poland signed and ratified the EU accession treatises, which include the supremacy of EU law, so by their own law EU law has supremacy.
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The Holy Therns
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Postby The Holy Therns » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:15 am

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Cereskia 2
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Postby Cereskia 2 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:18 am

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Dakini
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Postby Dakini » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:32 am

I've never been to Poland, but every Polish person I've met (e.g. a bunch of Polish emigrants) is mostly embarrassed by the way their country votes. So if Poland were to withdraw from the EU and all these liberal Polish people who support LGBT+ rights were forced to return... it seems like this would not go well for the conservative governments trying to implement the anti-LGBT+ policies that are currently getting them in so much trouble with the EU in the first place (especially since even the ones who are on the fence would probably be upset by being forced to leave their jobs and homes to go back to Poland).

I think the EU should take whatever legal action against Poland and proceed from there. I think that Poland benefits a lot from EU membership and it would be very bad for the country if it actually got kicked out. I also think that it would be better overall if the EU could drag Poland into the 21st century than if Poland was forced to leave and subject its people to shitty policies.

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Northern Socialist Council Republics
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Postby Northern Socialist Council Republics » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:33 am

From my outside perspective looking in, I can’t help but think that the European Union will become a more stable, cohesive bloc if it sheds all those Eastern European countries with weak democratic traditions, an unwillingness to compromise on national sovereignty, social and political values not necessarily compatible with those of the Western European nations, and a net negative contribution to the EU budget to boot.

I mean, is the Union really stronger for having the Czechs, Hungarians, the Greeks, and for that matter the Poles hanging on to it from the sides?
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Relden
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Postby Relden » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:41 am

Dakini wrote:I've never been to Poland, but every Polish person I've met (e.g. a bunch of Polish emigrants)

It's probably better to go with the word of Polish people who haven't just abandoned their country.
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New haven america
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Postby New haven america » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:44 am

Dakini wrote:I've never been to Poland, but every Polish person I've met (e.g. a bunch of Polish emigrants) is mostly embarrassed by the way their country votes. So if Poland were to withdraw from the EU and all these liberal Polish people who support LGBT+ rights were forced to return... it seems like this would not go well for the conservative governments trying to implement the anti-LGBT+ policies that are currently getting them in so much trouble with the EU in the first place (especially since even the ones who are on the fence would probably be upset by being forced to leave their jobs and homes to go back to Poland).

I think the EU should take whatever legal action against Poland and proceed from there. I think that Poland benefits a lot from EU membership and it would be very bad for the country if it actually got kicked out. I also think that it would be better overall if the EU could drag Poland into the 21st century than if Poland was forced to leave and subject its people to shitty policies.

I mean, it's the country that voluntarily installed a right wing dictatorship.

So yeah.
Last edited by New haven america on Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:47 am

The polish government is doing the classic game of ages where they go and write agreements with other countries then go home and proclaim how outrageous those self-same agreements are.

It's tired bullshit, and the evidence that it doesn't completely wash is evident. Poland is one of the pro-EU countries in the bloc, and just last week there was a giant show of support for the EU in the country. Hundreds of thousands showed up to protest in favour of EU membership, which makes me suspect that Polexit isn't on the horizon.

And with Babis now voted out of government in Czechia last weekend I think they're going to be a little more careful moving forward.
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Duvniask
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Postby Duvniask » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:49 am

Relden wrote:
Dakini wrote:I've never been to Poland, but every Polish person I've met (e.g. a bunch of Polish emigrants)

It's probably better to go with the word of Polish people who haven't just abandoned their country.

I know a Pole who lives in Poland who calls his countrymen retards, so there you go.
Last edited by Duvniask on Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Daarwyrth
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Postby Daarwyrth » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:50 am

Relden wrote:
Dakini wrote:I've never been to Poland, but every Polish person I've met (e.g. a bunch of Polish emigrants)

It's probably better to go with the word of Polish people who haven't just abandoned their country.

But why do you think those people "abandoned" their country? It's because the situation in the country is bad and becoming worse. I wasn't born in Poland, but both my parents emigrated from Poland to the Netherlands, and even though they didn't have it easy here they are so thankful they left the country. Especially with the ultra-right government in power at the moment. What PiS is doing to the country is something Poland won't recover from for years if not decades to come. Gross human rights violations, withdrawal from the European community... it's ludicrous. Poland has a great chance to become a valuable and strong player within the international community, but with its behaviour at the moment the nation is shooting itself in the figurative foot. I understand why Poland is so hellbent on preserving its national sovereignty, because the country was dominated by foreign powers for centuries. Yet this is not the way, in fact, I'm afraid Poland is pushing itself closer and closer to Russian influence again with its current anti-EU stance.

The EU will survive without Poland, but Poland will not survive without the EU. Everything that has currently been built up in Poland was from EU funding, and now Poland slaps away the hand that feeds it. It's ungrateful and embarrassing.
Last edited by Daarwyrth on Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Relden
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Postby Relden » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:52 am

Duvniask wrote:I know a Pole who lives in Poland who calls his countrymen retards, so there you go.

Well, Duvniask knows some guy from Poland who thinks that other Poles are retards.

Lets go off of what Duvniasks polish friend says to make polish foreign policy decisions.
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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:56 am

So Poland is ragequitting the EU over being expecting to play by the rules they agreed to when they joined?
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Duvniask
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Postby Duvniask » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:59 am

Relden wrote:
Duvniask wrote:I know a Pole who lives in Poland who calls his countrymen retards, so there you go.

Well, Duvniask knows some guy from Poland who thinks that other Poles are retards.

Lets go off of what Duvniasks polish friend says to make polish foreign policy decisions.

You asked for the word of Polish people who didn't "abandon their country". So have at it, Hoss!
Last edited by Duvniask on Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Daarwyrth
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Postby Daarwyrth » Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:00 am

Vassenor wrote:So Poland is ragequitting the EU over being expecting to play by the rules they agreed to when they joined?

Essentially that's what is has come down to. Poland was fine with accepting EU funding to build up their country, but when they were expected to play by the EU rules, they suddenly want to ragequit. The current ultra-right government basically wants all the benefits from being an EU member, but not the consequences of being a member, meaning conforming to the collective identity of the EU.

I believe it was a mistake to accept Poland into the EU in 2004, they should have waited and created incentives for Poland to change its weak democratic system and improve it. Only if it had a strong democracy it should have been admitted into the EU, not before.
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Postby Goblinstad » Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:58 am

As a Non-EU citizen, I support the gradual dismantling of the EU.
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Postby Vassenor » Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:00 am

Goblinstad wrote:As a Non-EU citizen, I support the gradual dismantling of the EU.


For what reason(s)?
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:19 am

If the Polish government wants to leave the EU by the back door so they can carry on oppressing their people then the least the rest of the EU can do for the Polish people is make their government leave the hard way.
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Postby Perikuresu » Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:24 am

Ik we give shit to Britain for leaving the EU, but at least they left on their own terms.

Poland (and Hungary) are most likely gonna get booted out the EU, (if they are gonna find themselves outside the EU anyways, I'm not saying they're gonna get kicked out now, although given the current lists of reasons, yeah, I see why) although whether we see a more strongly united and integrated EU or the opposite is a bit unclear atm.
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Postby Esternial » Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:07 am

Relden wrote:
Duvniask wrote:I know a Pole who lives in Poland who calls his countrymen retards, so there you go.

Well, Duvniask knows some guy from Poland who thinks that other Poles are retards.

Lets go off of what Duvniasks polish friend says to make polish foreign policy decisions.

Hate to say it but I reckon lawmakers have more important things to do that observe Nationstates for inspiration on its foreign policy decisions.
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Postby Page » Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:23 am

Perikuresu wrote:Ik we give shit to Britain for leaving the EU, but at least they left on their own terms.

Poland (and Hungary) are most likely gonna get booted out the EU, (if they are gonna find themselves outside the EU anyways, I'm not saying they're gonna get kicked out now, although given the current lists of reasons, yeah, I see why) although whether we see a more strongly united and integrated EU or the opposite is a bit unclear atm.


I think it would be the lesser evil for the EU to shrink but at least maintain a semblance of consistent values than for it to hold together or grow but as an institution that is, in regards to human rights, purely symbolic.

I'm inclined to think that Germany and everything west of it plus Finland and Greece, and maybe a few others, would be better off as a federation of social democracies that eschews the authoritarian and reactionary right altogether.

If the tyrannical governments of Poland and Hungary keep getting away with everything, hell, the EU may as well just let Erdogan's Islamist Turkey join too.
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Postby Luziyca » Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:27 am

The greatest mistake that the European Union had was a failure to institute a mechanism with which they can outright expel members for not conforming to the EU's rules, particularly concerning democratic norms. I feel that if such a mechanism existed, Hungary and Poland would most definitely not be in the European Union today.
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:46 am

Relden wrote:Foreign law should never take position above national law.

I agree but Poland signed the treaty and ratified it. They knew what was in it. They signed it so they have to abide by it

Poland have been doing good work recently, and they should tell the E.U. where to go.

Poland doesn’t want to do that because they get way more money from the EU than they give to the EU. So there’s a good chunk of the EU that would love to kick them out
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