Balder and Osiris turn 10

[Lord Dominator]

I do agree on them not really having natives at the beginning there - none of them really have many actually refounded natives active in the government relative to those who’ve come from outside and stuck around today either.

[Hulldom]

Well, this may be a hot take and I don't intend it to be: Laz is the only democratic sinker and the other two communities are dominated by parties who move in due to common ties/friends. So it's not exactly surprising that "native government" in the sinkers is more of an idea than it is a reality.

[Goobergunchia]

I do agree on them not really having natives at the beginning there - none of them really have many actually refounded natives active in the government relative to those who’ve come from outside and stuck around today either.

And even then that has to be judged case-by-case -- like, I'm sure I could get a puppet to refound in Osiris but would that make me a "native" any more than my role as a High Priest of Ma'at nine years ago does? To me that comes down to whether I'm intending to act for Osiris or as a secret TRR/Nasi agent, and that's not something anybody else can judge for certain unless I'm blatant about the latter.

[Unibot III]

Well, this may be a hot take and I don't intend it to be: Laz is the only democratic sinker and the other two communities are dominated by parties who move in due to common ties/friends. So it's not exactly surprising that "native government" in the sinkers is more of an idea than it is a reality.

TRR is the only democratic sinker.

[Lord Dominator]

Well, this may be a hot take and I don't intend it to be: Laz is the only democratic sinker and the other two communities are dominated by parties who move in due to common ties/friends. So it's not exactly surprising that "native government" in the sinkers is more of an idea than it is a reality.

Osiris also generally doesn’t claim to be a democracy, even if it does have democratic elements.

I do agree on them not really having natives at the beginning there - none of them really have many actually refounded natives active in the government relative to those who’ve come from outside and stuck around today either.

And even then that has to be judged case-by-case -- like, I'm sure I could get a puppet to refound in Osiris but would that make me a "native" any more than my role as a High Priest of Ma'at nine years ago does? To me that comes down to whether I'm intending to act for Osiris or as a secret TRR/Nasi agent, and that's not something anybody else can judge for certain unless I'm blatant about the latter.

Indeed

[Comfed]

Well, this may be a hot take and I don't intend it to be: Laz is the only democratic sinker and the other two communities are dominated by parties who move in due to common ties/friends. So it's not exactly surprising that "native government" in the sinkers is more of an idea than it is a reality.

Aren’t the people who moved in there and have been dedicated to them for a long time the natives?

[Honeydewistania]

OP: says short history, emphasised with the italics on short

Everyone: writes multi paragraph essays

[Unibot III]

OP: says short history, emphasised with the italics on short

Everyone: writes multi paragraph essays

I've never listened to Sedge when he tells me to shorten something and I'm not going to start now.

[Bears Armed]

I do agree on them not really having natives at the beginning there - none of them really have many actually refounded natives active in the government relative to those who’ve come from outside and stuck around today either.

And even then that has to be judged case-by-case -- like, I'm sure I could get a puppet to refound in Osiris but would that make me a "native" any more than my role as a High Priest of Ma'at nine years ago does? To me that comes down to whether I'm intending to act for Osiris or as a secret TRR/Nasi agent, and that's not something anybody else can judge for certain unless I'm blatant about the latter.

I've got two currently-CTEd puppets that were customised specifically for those regions: 'Skurge the Executioner' (named after a character from Marvel's 'Thor' comics) for Balder, and 'Walking Like Egyptians' for Osiris. They both moved into those regions immediately after being founded, and spent their entire existences (which were several years long) there. I would consider those to be 'natives', just as much so as I consider my puppets customised for & moved into specific other regions to be natives of those.

[The North Polish Union]

Referring to the imperialists as "natives" of balder is a bad take. From its earliest days Balder's monarchy essentially functioned as a client of the LKE, TNI et al. and the government was largely imports from a variety of imperialist regions rather than being a "native monarchy". Although this has changed to an extent, the presence of former LKE emperor Onder as an RO in Balder is evidence that sovereignty has not been fully achieved, even after a decade.

So Balder won’t be independent until Onder holds no position is what you’re saying?

As Goob pointed out, Balder won't be fully independent until it exercises control of its own government independent of the major players in the imperialist UCRs (which have admittedly declined in influence since 2011). Keeping Onder on as an RO suggests that is not the case, although his being an RO is a symptom rather than the cause.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

I'm not sure Onder is at this stage active to any degree in any region but Balder, and I firmly believe that to have been the case for many years. There's really no difference between the community that controls Balder and the community that controls The Rejected Realms in terms of native control, except the latter has existed longer.

[Lord Dominator]

So Balder won’t be independent until Onder holds no position is what you’re saying?

As Goob pointed out, Balder won't be fully independent until it exercises control of its own government independent of the major players in the imperialist UCRs (which have admittedly declined in influence since 2011). Keeping Onder on as an RO suggests that is not the case, although his being an RO is a symptom rather than the cause.

And how do you define “control of its own government” as such - because even if we assume Onder’s presence makes them not independent, him not being there doesn’t erase the years of cooperation that makes them likely to agree even without him being around (of course, that also presumes that he’s incapable of acting in what he perceives as the best interest of the region despite being in another, which I don’t).

[Zaolat]

This thread is becoming silly now. Who gives a shit who is considered a native or not, that's irrelevant to past until current history. Even if some of it could be relevant it will just be a stupid debate and not in anyway helpful to the reason of this thread.

[Tim-Opolis]

Geez..... I hope Cormac comes back. He has ALL the dirt on Osiris

He won't. Tim and Koth also has ALL the dirt on Osiris so maybe they should do it instead.

We're the reason that region still has some semblance of a stable community and government. There's only so many times we can repeat that before it gets tiring.

As for Balder, while I was there for its creation, I similarly grow tired of re-hashing how woefully the UDL mishandled the Balder transition under Unibot's control.

[Ikania]

This kind of arguing over semantics is what I was hoping to avoid. I gave permission to the mods to edit my writing, if they so decide to use it, so it's up to them what they want to do. If "native" is too controversial for them, I would suggest "denizen" instead. But again, it's trivial.

[Ereh]

This should be titled “Balder and Osiris and most NS players turn 10” other than that, nice thread.

Hello everyone.