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[Discussion] Holocaust denial

Who needs it, who got it, who hands it out and why.
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Guy
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[Discussion] Holocaust denial

Postby Guy » Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:33 am

At sedge's request, this is adapted from an earlier post on this matter.

Holocaust denial is unlawful in Australia

Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act 1975 makes it unlawful to do an act, other than in public, if the act is reasonably likely, in all the circumstances, to offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate another person or a group of people, and the act is done because of the race, colour or national or ethnic origin of the other person or of some or all of the people in the group.

There is strong judicial precedent that publishing material on a publicly-accessible website that conveys the imputation there is serious doubt that the Holocaust occurred is unlawful under section 18C.

I realise this provision may cause the blood pressure of some people to rise, so I will point out there are exemptions for certain acts done reasonably and in good faith, and the words of the statute have to be read in context. I'm not going to canvas these matters; instead, I'm going to try to explain the relevant case law as succinctly as possible.

The Federal Court, in Jones v Toben [2002] FCA 1150, held the publication of Holocaust-denying material contravenes section 18C. This ruling was upheld on appeal where the decision was challenged on narrow grounds (Toben v Jones [2003] FCAFC 137; 129 FCR 515). The judge found material, published on a publicly-accessible website, contained the following imputations:
(a) there is serious doubt that the Holocaust occurred;
(b) it is unlikely that there were homicidal gas chambers in Auschwitz;
(c) Jewish people who are offended by and challenge Holocaust denial are of limited intelligence; and
(d) some Jewish people, for improper purposes, including financial gain, have exaggerated the number of Jews killed during World War II and the circumstances in which they were killed.

Quoting the relevant part of the judgment (emphasis added):
93. The applicant gave evidence that the Australian Jewish community has the highest percentage of survivors of the Holocaust of any Jewish community in the world outside of Israel. Each of the first two of the imputations identified in [88] above thus challenges and denigrates a central aspect of the shared perception of Australian Jewry of its own modern history and the circumstances in which many of its members came to make their lives in Australia rather than in Europe. To the extent that the material conveys these imputations it is, in my view, more probable than not that it would engender feelings of hurt and pain in the living by reason of its challenge to deep seated belief as to the circumstances surrounding the deaths, or the displacement, of their parents or grandparents. For the same reason, I am satisfied that it is more probable than not that the material would engender in Jewish Australians a sense of being treated contemptuously, disrespectfully and offensively.

94. I am also satisfied that it is more probable than not that the third and fourth of the imputations identified above, by reason of their calumnious nature, would offend, insult, hurt and wound members of Australian Jewry and engender in them a sense of being treated contemptuously, disrespectfully and offensively.

95. For the above reasons I am satisfied that the publication of the material set out in [81] above on an website which is not password protected was an act reasonably likely in all of the circumstances to offend and insult a group of people, namely Australian Jewry.

96. It also seems to me to be objectively likely, in the sense discussed above, that the publication of the material set out in [81] above on an website which is not password protected would cause damage to the pride and self‑respect of vulnerable members of the Australian Jewish community, such as, for example, the young and the impressionable. The World Wide Web is now an important tool which many people, including students, may be expected to utilise when searching for information. Vulnerable members of the Jewish community, as a result of being exposed to material of the kind set out in [81] above, might well experience, whether consciously or unconsciously, pressure to renounce the cultural differences that identify them as part of the Jewish community. I am satisfied that it is more probable than not that there are members of the Australian Jewish community who will become fearful of accessing the World Wide Web to search for information touching on their Jewish culture because of the risk of insult from the material set out in [81] above. For these reasons I am satisfied that the act of publishing that material was an act reasonably likely, in all of the circumstances, to humiliate and intimidate a group of people, namely members of the Australian Jewish community vulnerable to attacks on their pride and self‑respect by reason of youth, inexperience or psychological vulnerability.

As I stated above, on appeal by the publisher of the material, the issues were somewhat narrowed. All three judges dismissed the appeal. Perhaps most relevantly, Justice Kiefel (as she then was, currently Chief Justice of the High Court) stated:
66. With respect to the imputations at (a) and (b), doubt is cast upon the Holocaust, or the extent of it, and the methods of extermination utilised. The article is clearly concerned to challenge, and call for proof of, the events said to constitute the Holocaust and for which the German people have, in the writer's view, been held to account. It concerns events of great significance to Jewish people. Even if it does not amount to a complete denial of the Holocaust, it is more than likely to offend and insult many Jewish people.

It is widely accepted in Australia, following this precedent, that Holocaust denial is unlawful. Political debates about section 18C often relate to the risk any amendment will make Holocaust denial lawful.

Holocaust denial is, or should be, against the site's rules

Allowing Holocaust denial places NS in the absolute fringes of even the worst of purely vile stuff you can find on the Internet. Holocaust denial calls millions of people liars on the basis of their ethnicity. At its core is the idea that Jewish people lie about the deaths of their closest family for political gain. It humiliates people on a personal level, it diminishes their loss, and it reenlivens their trauma. If someone posted "my grandfather died" and someone else continuously hounded them for lying about that for gain, we would ban them. This is no different. It is not legitimate political expression. It is hatred, it is defamatory, and it is antisemitic. The situation where it is allowed under the site's rules, but calling someone who says those things about you 'an idiot' is actionable, is bizarre.

The two most widely-used definitions of antisemitism, the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition and the Jerusalem Declaration, both unequivocally state that Holocaust denial is antisemitic. IHRA says:
Holocaust denial in its various forms is an expression of antisemitism. The attempt to deny the genocide of the Jews is an effort to exonerate National Socialism and antisemitism from guilt or responsibility in the genocide of the Jewish people. Forms of Holocaust denial also include blaming the Jews for either exaggerating or creating the Shoah for political or financial gain as if the Shoah itself was the result of a conspiracy plotted by the Jews. In this, the goal is to make the Jews culpable and antisemitism once again legitimate.

The Jerusalem Declaration on Antisemitism states:
Denying or minimizing the Holocaust by claiming that the deliberate Nazi genocide of the Jews did not take place, or that there were no extermination camps or gas chambers, or that the number of victims was a fraction of the actual total, is antisemitic.
Last edited by Guy on Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Flanderlion » Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:41 am

Surprised it wasn't already here: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=260044#topics

Fully in favour of banning it onsite, I did think it was already part of the site rules under offensive material but evidently not.
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Thomas the Benevolent
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Postby Thomas the Benevolent » Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:45 am

Flanderlion wrote:Surprised it wasn't already here: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=260044#topics

Fully in favour of banning it onsite, I did think it was already part of the site rules under offensive material but evidently not.

Also to add Guy's content: Inquiry into Anti-vilification Protections, it goes into detail over the holocaust denial commentary.
Last edited by Thomas the Benevolent on Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Tsaivao
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Postby Tsaivao » Mon Oct 04, 2021 5:45 am

Full support of this. Even if it weren't illegal, there is absolutely zero reason that we should be tolerant of holocaust denialism. It is not a legitimate belief or position in any way.
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Postby FNU » Mon Oct 04, 2021 5:48 am

Makes perfect sense to me. It still amazes me that people can even muster an argument to deny it in the first place.
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Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:14 am

Personally I’m not sure why any instance of Holocaust denial isn’t treated automatically as trolling.
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Postby Gorundu » Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:17 am

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:Personally I’m not sure why any instance of Holocaust denial isn’t treated automatically as trolling.

When people genuinely believe it, which happens to happen a lot.
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Postby Visionary Union » Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:31 am

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:Personally I’m not sure why any instance of Holocaust denial isn’t treated automatically as trolling.

I don't think trolling quite covers it. Hateful speech should be what it falls under. Treating it as 'trolling' only masks the underlying issue.

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Postby The Anti-Social Socialists » Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:38 am

While I fully support banning Holocaust denial, I unfortunately believe that there is a more difficult question to answer in relation to section 18C than Guy's post would suggest.

Namely, while I fully agree with Guy's analysis of the first limb of section 18C (that is, the 'reasonably likely, in all the circumstances, to offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate another person or a group of people' limb), it is the second limb (the 'act is done because of the race, colour or national or ethnic origin of the other person or of some or all of the people in the group' limb) which might cause issues in policing Holocaust denial as a matter of pure legality.

In both Jones v Toben [2002] FCA 1150 and its appeal, the phrase 'because of' was considered in some detail. The Court relied upon the reasoning of Hely J in Jones v Scully [2002] FCA 1080, which itself was derived from Kiefel J's analysis in Creek v Cairns Post Pty Ltd [2001] FCA 1007.

At [98] in Jones v Toben [2002] FCA 1150, Branson J quoted Hely J and adopted the broad approach elucidated by Kiefel J:

“The phrase “because of” requires consideration of the reason or reasons for which the relevant act was done: Hagan (Full Federal Court) (2001) 105 FCR 56 at 60. It is important to note that if an act is done for one or more reasons, it is enough that one of the reasons is the race, colour or national or ethnic origin of a person or group of people, whether or not it is the dominant reason or a substantial reason for doing the act: s 18B. The applicant submits that the test to be applied in a consideration of s 18C(1)(b) is whether race is a “material factor” in the performance of the act. In Creek, Kiefel J notes at pars [19] – [27] that there have been differences of opinion expressed about the meaning of phrases such as “on the ground of” and “by reason of” in the context of discrimination legislation. It is not necessary for me to repeat what her Honour said there, except to say that, at the end of her discussion of the relevant authorities, her Honour adopted an approach to s 18C(1)(b) which enquired into whether “anything suggests race as a factor in the respondent’s decision to publish” the work in question. I respectfully propose to follow that approach.”


In respect of the scenario which prompted this entire discussion, previous comments by that user (such as viewtopic.php?f=20&t=462608&p=39017464&hilit=israel#p39017466 and viewtopic.php?f=20&t=462608&p=39017434#p39017434) might feasibly support the inference that their post about Holocaust denial was prompted at least partly by race or ethnicity.
However, the point I am trying to make is that, frustratingly, the second limb of section 18C can muddle things notwithstanding the breadth of interpretation, particularly if a user has simply commented something along the lines of 'I don't think the Holocaust happened' in the absence of any context about the user or the post. The rather extreme content in
Jones v Toben [2002] FCA 1150 and related cases (in the sense that rather inflammatory allegations against Jewish people existed alongside the Holocaust denial so as to make it clear that the content was published 'because of' the Jewish race or ethnicity) only highlights the difficulty in applying the aforementioned precedents to less extreme cases.

To be clear, I absolutely want to eliminate Holocaust denial on this website. I'm just not sure that section 18C will do so absolutely on the basis of unlawfulness. The hate speech or trolling suggestions would probably be a simpler way to effectively address this issue in my opinion.
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Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:44 am

Gorundu wrote:
Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:Personally I’m not sure why any instance of Holocaust denial isn’t treated automatically as trolling.

When people genuinely believe it, which happens to happen a lot.

Fair point, but the OSRS states that honest belief is no excuse for trolling and to me it would seem to be very difficult not to make a post about Holocaust denial that wouldn’t anger people.

Don’t get me wrong I think Holocaust denial is horrific and I am fully supportive of eradicating it from the site - I’m just trying to see if NS already has the tools to deal with it.
Last edited by Bhang Bhang Duc on Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bears Armed » Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:56 am

I certainly don't object to Holocaust Denial being banned from this site,in fact I'm slightly surprised that this wasn't done at the same time that the ban on openly Nazi nations was introduced... but I hope that if the rules are tightened in this respect then it will also become forbidden here to deny the millions of deaths that happened due to Marxist governments in Russia (where, under Stalin, there was also ethnic cleansing of several groups -- because he was paranoid about the risk of them siding with Germany -- by mass deportations eastwards), or under Mao in China (or the current Chinese government's treatment of the Uyghurs): Death and ethnically-based oppression on such a scale due to government policies is an atrocity regardless of which totalitarian faction is responsible for it, and far too many people seem willing to give the Far Left a pass in this respect...
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Postby Solise Melachyscorlo » Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:57 am

As a Jewish American, I have some very strong feelings about the holocaust. Me and pretty much everyone else in my local Jewish community at very least has some distant relatives that died in it, and there is actually a holocaust survivor at my synagogue who experienced a lot of horrible shit in it. In my opinion, holocaust denial is stupid at best and outright evil and hateful at worst.

That said, as a proud American I also strongly believe in the ideals of freedom of speech and thought, and strongly oppose most censorship. As violet mentioned, only 5% of the site's traffic comes from countries that ban holocaust denial, and despite the OP's claim, that Australian law is not interpreted as a ban on holocaust denial. A weak argument can be made for it, but I don't think that any self-respecting judge would accept said argument.

Of course, as this is a private website, this is ultimately up for Max Barry to decide. Whatever decision he makes, we have no choice but to accept it.

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Postby Visionary Union » Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:12 am

Bears Armed wrote:I certainly don't object to Holocaust Denial being banned from this site,in fact I'm slightly surprised that this wasn't done at the same time that the ban on openly Nazi nations was introduced... but I hope that if the rules are tightened in this respect then it will also become forbidden here to deny the millions of deaths that happened due to Marxist governments in Russia (where, under Stalin, there was also ethnic cleansing of several groups -- because he was paranoid about the risk of them siding with Germany -- by mass deportations eastwards), or under Mao in China (or the current Chinese government's treatment of the Uyghurs): Death and ethnically-based oppression on such a scale due to government policies is an atrocity regardless of which totalitarian faction is responsible for it, and far too many people seem willing to give the Far Left a pass in this respect...

Hardly the thread for it, but I haven't encountered any of that- But I'm not really active in NSG forums.

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Postby Guy » Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:27 am

The Anti-Social Socialists wrote:While I fully support banning Holocaust denial, I unfortunately believe that there is a more difficult question to answer in relation to section 18C than Guy's post would suggest.

Namely, while I fully agree with Guy's analysis of the first limb of section 18C (that is, the 'reasonably likely, in all the circumstances, to offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate another person or a group of people' limb), it is the second limb (the 'act is done because of the race, colour or national or ethnic origin of the other person or of some or all of the people in the group' limb) which might cause issues in policing Holocaust denial as a matter of pure legality.

In both Jones v Toben [2002] FCA 1150 and its appeal, the phrase 'because of' was considered in some detail. The Court relied upon the reasoning of Hely J in Jones v Scully [2002] FCA 1080, which itself was derived from Kiefel J's analysis in Creek v Cairns Post Pty Ltd [2001] FCA 1007.

At [98] in Jones v Toben [2002] FCA 1150, Branson J quoted Hely J and adopted the broad approach elucidated by Kiefel J:

“The phrase “because of” requires consideration of the reason or reasons for which the relevant act was done: Hagan (Full Federal Court) (2001) 105 FCR 56 at 60. It is important to note that if an act is done for one or more reasons, it is enough that one of the reasons is the race, colour or national or ethnic origin of a person or group of people, whether or not it is the dominant reason or a substantial reason for doing the act: s 18B. The applicant submits that the test to be applied in a consideration of s 18C(1)(b) is whether race is a “material factor” in the performance of the act. In Creek, Kiefel J notes at pars [19] – [27] that there have been differences of opinion expressed about the meaning of phrases such as “on the ground of” and “by reason of” in the context of discrimination legislation. It is not necessary for me to repeat what her Honour said there, except to say that, at the end of her discussion of the relevant authorities, her Honour adopted an approach to s 18C(1)(b) which enquired into whether “anything suggests race as a factor in the respondent’s decision to publish” the work in question. I respectfully propose to follow that approach.”


In respect of the scenario which prompted this entire discussion, previous comments by that user (such as viewtopic.php?f=20&t=462608&p=39017464&hilit=israel#p39017466 and viewtopic.php?f=20&t=462608&p=39017434#p39017434) might feasibly support the inference that their post about Holocaust denial was prompted at least partly by race or ethnicity.
However, the point I am trying to make is that, frustratingly, the second limb of section 18C can muddle things notwithstanding the breadth of interpretation, particularly if a user has simply commented something along the lines of 'I don't think the Holocaust happened' in the absence of any context about the user or the post. The rather extreme content in
Jones v Toben [2002] FCA 1150 and related cases (in the sense that rather inflammatory allegations against Jewish people existed alongside the Holocaust denial so as to make it clear that the content was published 'because of' the Jewish race or ethnicity) only highlights the difficulty in applying the aforementioned precedents to less extreme cases.

To be clear, I absolutely want to eliminate Holocaust denial on this website. I'm just not sure that section 18C will do so absolutely on the basis of unlawfulness. The hate speech or trolling suggestions would probably be a simpler way to effectively address this issue in my opinion.

It is true there is no precedent that Holocaust denial is always done "because of the other person's ethnicity". I do not want to wade into whether it is possible for the publication of Holocaust-denying material to not be "because of" the ethnic origin of Jewish people, because even though I have my views, I agree is unsettled. In practice, it is on its face a highly unreal suggestion. Holocaust denial requires the belief to be formed that Jewish people are lying en mass, and it is almost incongruent to hold the view the Holocaust did not happen, but for the reasons for that statement being made to not meet the second limb of the test. I also strongly disagree with the characterisation of the material in question in Toben as "extreme" (in relation to other instances of Holocaust denial), including in comparison to the statements by the user here, and thus not capable of useful comparison. In essence, the here is that Holocaust denial is almost always at least partly motivated by the ethnic origin of Jewish people, which meets the legal test.

Similarly, while there is no precedent the exemption in s 18D categorically does not apply to Holocaust denial, I am quite sceptical any instance of Holocaust denial will be found to be in good faith, reasonable, or a fair comment. That's because, of course, no such precedent exists for any act - but that does not mean we cannot conclude certain types of acts are likely, or almost certain, to contravene s 18C.

It is a fair statement to say that Holocaust denial is banned in Australia, and that the vast majority (or even all) Holocaust denying statements made on this websites are likely to be found to contravene s 18C. The "because of" requirement and s 18D are what a layman would understand as 'technicalities' in the law, just as other jurisdictions' laws are likely to have additional elements, and yet you would still describe Holocaust denial as unlawful in those jurisdictions.

Importantly, I do not think it is essential for every single Holocaust denying statement to be found to contravene s 18C, for the likelihood of unlawfulness to be a good reason to categorically ban Holocaust denial on the website. Obviously any rule adopted will not perfectly mirror the text of s 18C (or Title IIA). The rule adopted needs to be capable of application by NS moderation. The fact that allowing Holocaust-denying material is very likely to contravene s 18C, contravene site rules, and be highly offensive to Jewish people is, I think, a good reason to ban it categorically.

Solise Melachyscorlo wrote:and despite the OP's claim, that Australian law is not interpreted as a ban on holocaust denial. A weak argument can be made for it, but I don't think that any self-respecting judge would accept said argument.

I suggest you try to tell the current Chief Justice of the High Court of Australia, two Federal Court Justices who constituted the full bench, and the one who sat at first intance, they're all not "self-respecting judges". As stated above, almost any instance of Holocaust denial would contravene s 18C.

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:Fair point, but the OSRS states that honest belief is no excuse for trolling and to me it would seem to be very difficult not to make a post about Holocaust denial that wouldn’t anger people.

Don’t get me wrong I think Holocaust denial is horrific and I am fully supportive of eradicating it from the site - I’m just trying to see if NS already has the tools to deal with it.

I tend to agree. The issue is that, over the years, it's been held to be non-actionable several times. If there is a clear ruling that Holocaust denial constitutes (or at least is likely to constitute) trolling, that would solve the issue here, of course. I'm afraid that without some categorical ruling we'll be back here in the not-too-distant future.

I note the OSRS defines trolling "as posts that are made with the aim of angering people. (like 'ALL JEWS ARE [insert vile comment here]' for example)" - and I would argue that Holocaust denial quite obviously is done with the knowledge (and likely intent) it will anger people, and is practically saying "all Jews are liars". If this is the interpretation to be taken by moderation, that would go a long way towards solving the issue, even if my preference is for a ruling that's as clear as possible.
Last edited by Guy on Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:45 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Torrocca » Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:39 am

Hard agree on banning Holocaust denial, with an added stipulation that downplaying or denying other easily-verifiably deliberate atrocities of similar nature (such as, for instance, the genocide of Native Americans or the atrocities in the Belgian Congo) should also be banned.

That also being said, if there's a genuine lack of evidence toward the deliberateness/intentionality of an atrocious event, or an abundance of evidence toward the contrary, and such can be proven or provided, then I think that should be allowed to be discussed. There is, of course, a difference between that and outright denial/downplay of an atrocity and should be recognized as such.
Last edited by Torrocca on Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Lancer the bike boi » Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:41 am

ban holocaust denial guys

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Postby Herador » Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:54 am

Visionary Union wrote:
Bears Armed wrote:I certainly don't object to Holocaust Denial being banned from this site,in fact I'm slightly surprised that this wasn't done at the same time that the ban on openly Nazi nations was introduced... but I hope that if the rules are tightened in this respect then it will also become forbidden here to deny the millions of deaths that happened due to Marxist governments in Russia (where, under Stalin, there was also ethnic cleansing of several groups -- because he was paranoid about the risk of them siding with Germany -- by mass deportations eastwards), or under Mao in China (or the current Chinese government's treatment of the Uyghurs): Death and ethnically-based oppression on such a scale due to government policies is an atrocity regardless of which totalitarian faction is responsible for it, and far too many people seem willing to give the Far Left a pass in this respect...

Hardly the thread for it, but I haven't encountered any of that- But I'm not really active in NSG forums.

You see it occasionally with very ardent supporters, but it isn't common. Then again, neither is Holocaust denial, so I think a ban on everything Bears mentioned seems appropriate.
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Postby Great Algerstonia » Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:56 am

If we're banning Holocaust denial, then I want all forms of genocide denial banned.
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Resilient Acceleration wrote:After a period of letting this discussion run its course without my involvement due to sheer laziness and a new related NS project, I have returned with an answer and that answer is Israel.

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The Reformed American Republic
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Reformed American Republic » Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:01 am

Herador wrote:
Visionary Union wrote:Hardly the thread for it, but I haven't encountered any of that- But I'm not really active in NSG forums.

You see it occasionally with very ardent supporters, but it isn't common. Then again, neither is Holocaust denial, so I think a ban on everything Bears mentioned seems appropriate.

Exactly, if there needs to be a ban, it should objective, and not be one sided.

I don't inherently object to the banning of holocaust denial.
"It's called 'the American Dream' 'cause you have to be asleep to believe it." - George Carlin
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." - Carl Schurz
Older posts do not reflect my positions.

Holocene Extinction

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Andronya
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Founded: Aug 14, 2021
Corporate Bordello

Postby Andronya » Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:03 am

If I must be 100% honest, I don't think Holocaust Denial should be banned.
There's a huge difference between advocating for genocide and questioning parts (or the whole) of one that already happened. I get it, Holocaust Denial is predominantly a neo-nazi point of view and narrative, I get it, but that doesn't mean you can outright ban questioning the holocaust or investigating about it, it's a very fine line that shouldn't be crossed; in order to find the truth the free share of ideas and theories should be allowed.

IF holocaust denial was banned though, then denial of the Armenian Genocide should be banned as well, or denial of the gulags in the USSR. It's a matter of everyone or nobody in that case.
Andronya: Your tropical paradise.

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Lancer the bike boi
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Founded: Oct 04, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Lancer the bike boi » Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:04 am

Andronya wrote:If I must be 100% honest, I don't think Holocaust Denial should be banned.
There's a huge difference between advocating for genocide and questioning parts (or the whole) of one that already happened. I get it, Holocaust Denial is predominantly a neo-nazi point of view and narrative, I get it, but that doesn't mean you can outright ban questioning the holocaust or investigating about it, it's a very fine line that shouldn't be crossed; in order to find the truth the free share of ideas and theories should be allowed.

IF holocaust denial was banned though, then denial of the Armenian Genocide should be banned as well, or denial of the gulags in the USSR. It's a matter of everyone or nobody in that case.

i say everybody

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Czervenika
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Founded: Jul 06, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Czervenika » Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:08 am

Visionary Union wrote:
Bears Armed wrote:I certainly don't object to Holocaust Denial being banned from this site,in fact I'm slightly surprised that this wasn't done at the same time that the ban on openly Nazi nations was introduced... but I hope that if the rules are tightened in this respect then it will also become forbidden here to deny the millions of deaths that happened due to Marxist governments in Russia (where, under Stalin, there was also ethnic cleansing of several groups -- because he was paranoid about the risk of them siding with Germany -- by mass deportations eastwards), or under Mao in China (or the current Chinese government's treatment of the Uyghurs): Death and ethnically-based oppression on such a scale due to government policies is an atrocity regardless of which totalitarian faction is responsible for it, and far too many people seem willing to give the Far Left a pass in this respect...

Hardly the thread for it, but I haven't encountered any of that- But I'm not really active in NSG forums.


I've encountered plenty of it outside of NSG, but can't say I've seen it here. Shouldn't be tolerated, though, and I am far-left.
(Ignore Factbook for now. It is being redone...eventually.)

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Visionary Union
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Founded: Sep 16, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Visionary Union » Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:08 am

Andronya wrote:If I must be 100% honest, I don't think Holocaust Denial should be banned.
There's a huge difference between advocating for genocide and questioning parts (or the whole) of one that already happened. I get it, Holocaust Denial is predominantly a neo-nazi point of view and narrative, I get it, but that doesn't mean you can outright ban questioning the holocaust or investigating about it, it's a very fine line that shouldn't be crossed; in order to find the truth the free share of ideas and theories should be allowed.

IF holocaust denial was banned though, then denial of the Armenian Genocide should be banned as well, or denial of the gulags in the USSR. It's a matter of everyone or nobody in that case.

This is not about should genocide denial be banned. It's about holocaust denial being banned since it is illegal in Victoria, Australia because this is where Nationstates is hosted, and they have to follow their rules.

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Andronya
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Founded: Aug 14, 2021
Corporate Bordello

Postby Andronya » Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:14 am

Visionary Union wrote:
Andronya wrote:If I must be 100% honest, I don't think Holocaust Denial should be banned.
There's a huge difference between advocating for genocide and questioning parts (or the whole) of one that already happened. I get it, Holocaust Denial is predominantly a neo-nazi point of view and narrative, I get it, but that doesn't mean you can outright ban questioning the holocaust or investigating about it, it's a very fine line that shouldn't be crossed; in order to find the truth the free share of ideas and theories should be allowed.

IF holocaust denial was banned though, then denial of the Armenian Genocide should be banned as well, or denial of the gulags in the USSR. It's a matter of everyone or nobody in that case.

This is not about should genocide denial be banned. It's about holocaust denial being banned since it is illegal in Victoria, Australia because this is where Nationstates is hosted, and they have to follow their rules.

Now THAT is different.
TBH I had no idea this site was hosted in Australia.

If Holocaust Denial will be banned here though, I say denial of ANY genocide should be banned as well; USSR Gulags, Armenian Genocide, etc.
Last edited by Andronya on Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Andronya: Your tropical paradise.

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Czervenika
Minister
 
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Founded: Jul 06, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Czervenika » Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:15 am

Visionary Union wrote:
Andronya wrote:If I must be 100% honest, I don't think Holocaust Denial should be banned.
There's a huge difference between advocating for genocide and questioning parts (or the whole) of one that already happened. I get it, Holocaust Denial is predominantly a neo-nazi point of view and narrative, I get it, but that doesn't mean you can outright ban questioning the holocaust or investigating about it, it's a very fine line that shouldn't be crossed; in order to find the truth the free share of ideas and theories should be allowed.

IF holocaust denial was banned though, then denial of the Armenian Genocide should be banned as well, or denial of the gulags in the USSR. It's a matter of everyone or nobody in that case.

This is not about should genocide denial be banned. It's about holocaust denial being banned since it is illegal in Victoria, Australia because this is where Nationstates is hosted, and they have to follow their rules.


Issue with putting a blanket ban on genocide, to be fair, is that different people will define different events as genocide. Like, what are we defining as genocide right here in this discussion? Mass murder? Destruction of culture? Or something else? If we go with the latter definition then the destruction of Native American culture by the colonizers could be considered genocide.
Last edited by Czervenika on Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:19 am, edited 3 times in total.
(Ignore Factbook for now. It is being redone...eventually.)

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