NATION

PASSWORD

Book burning revisited

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
GuessTheAltAccount
Diplomat
 
Posts: 668
Founded: Apr 27, 2021
Democratic Socialists

Book burning revisited

Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:34 pm

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/paren ... 8fa4adb383

Remember when there was an uproar over someone who made a big public spectacle of burning his own copy of the Qur'an? At least that was his to burn. Aren't the taxpayers whose money was taken from them to fund libraries at public schools at least entitled to a refund for the cost of the books that were burned? And when you consider that some of said taxpayers are no longer around to receive their refund, or to weigh in on whether they're okay with the books their tax dollars paid for being burned as long as the money is paid to their loved ones, is even a refund enough to make it ethical? People condemn this stuff, but condemn it more mildly than the Qu'ran one, when it should be the other way around.

As I seem to recall, at the time popular opinion, however split on Islam itself, seemed to be making book burning out to be an especially distasteful way to express your disapproval of a book. I disagree. I don't mind the act of book burning itself if it's your own book. The publisher's already got your money, dude. But shouldn't this be even worse? That book is no longer just a book. That is now public property that is being destroyed. Wouldn't that make it vandalism at the very least?

I also recall that popular opinion blamed "right-wing" ideology for why they thought it appropriate to burn books. But obviously it depends on the books. In this case it's pretty clear that they're not burning books in spite of their "left-wing" ideology, but partly because of it. So why associate book burning with "right-wing" ideology in particular?
Last edited by GuessTheAltAccount on Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Northern Socialist Council Republics wrote:Christian “charity” is morally at par with fascist soup kitchens; a transparent bid to buy goodwill for their reactionary beliefs.

User avatar
The Alma Mater
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22946
Founded: May 23, 2004
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Alma Mater » Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:45 pm

It indeed seems like a hollow symbolic gesture. Those indigenous kids they murdered for instance will not magically spring back to life if one burns a few books.
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease.
It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.
- Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

User avatar
Czervenika
Minister
 
Posts: 2259
Founded: Jul 06, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Czervenika » Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:48 pm

As someone in the library sciences I wish I had more energy right now to properly contribute to this discussion. It has potential to be good. I'm just getting tired and close to bedtime.
(Ignore Factbook for now. It is being redone...eventually.)

Please stop spreading the plague.

User avatar
The Black Forrest
Post Czar
 
Posts: 47068
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:25 pm

Burning books is always a bad thing.

Even when the books have racism, discrimination and stereotypes. Burning the past doesn’t improve people. It aids in the creation of myth. Studying the follies of the past is the only way to improve.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

User avatar
Haganham
Envoy
 
Posts: 230
Founded: Aug 17, 2021
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Haganham » Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:27 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:Burning books is always a bad thing.

Even when the books have racism, discrimination and stereotypes. Burning the past doesn’t improve people. It aids in the creation of myth. Studying the follies of the past is the only way to improve.

Indeed. Is is the most repellent ideas that are the most important to preserve, and understand. How else are we to identify those ideas in the future?

User avatar
Republic Of Ludwigsburg
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 145
Founded: Jun 26, 2021
Democratic Socialists

Postby Republic Of Ludwigsburg » Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:28 pm

In India some fanatic burnt the Kama Sutra.
Ludwigsburger Stock
SIS (State Industrial Stock)↑2.9%
LPS (Ludwigsburg Private Stock) ↓23.1% (Socialism Bill 2021)
LWU (Ludwigsburg Worker's Union) ↑19.9%

professional idiot
Friedrich Schonbrunn says that they might institute the Habsburg monarch as a constitutional monarch on 29th September.

Politiscales: https://bit.ly/3tkNz5e

User avatar
Picairn
Senator
 
Posts: 4775
Founded: Feb 21, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Picairn » Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:32 pm

Useless virtue signaling and a waste of paper, no less.
Picairn's Ministry of Foreign Relations
Minister: Edward H. Cornell
WA Ambassador: John M. Terry (Active)
Factbook | Constitution | Newspaper
Albrenia wrote:With great power comes great mockability.

Proctopeo wrote:I'm completely right and you know it.

Moralityland wrote:big corporations allied with the communist elite
Center-left liberal, passionate political observer, and naval warfare enthusiast.
Listen here Jack, we're going to destroy malarkey.
♔ The Empire of Picairn ♔
-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-—————————-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-
✵ Certified brunch-loving liberal and resident optimist of NSG. I'm male. All Hail Biden!

User avatar
The Alma Mater
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22946
Founded: May 23, 2004
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Alma Mater » Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:58 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:Burning books is always a bad thing.


It is a standard way to dispose of them in many places though. Libraries for instance will burn books nobody ever borrows nor wants to buy during sales to make room for others.
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease.
It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.
- Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

User avatar
The Black Forrest
Post Czar
 
Posts: 47068
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:05 pm

The Alma Mater wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:Burning books is always a bad thing.


It is a standard way to dispose of them in many places though. Libraries for instance will burn books nobody ever borrows nor wants to buy during sales to make room for others.


Why not recycle?
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

User avatar
Old Tyrannia
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 16221
Founded: Aug 11, 2009
Father Knows Best State

Postby Old Tyrannia » Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:18 am

"Where they have burned books, they will end in burning human beings." - Heinrich Heine
Whisky-loving Anglican monarchist and one time moderator.
"It is spiritless to think that you cannot attain to that which you have seen and heard the masters attain. The masters are men. You are also a man. If you think that you will be inferior in doing something, you will be on that road very soon."
- Yamamoto Tsunetomo

User avatar
Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 148123
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Ifreann » Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:45 am

Picairn wrote:Useless virtue signaling and a waste of paper, no less.

They're using the ashes as fertiliser for trees.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Mask Wearing That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing
He/Him

You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

User avatar
Vassenor
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 59679
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Vassenor » Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:51 am

Picairn wrote:Useless virtue signaling and a waste of paper, no less.


Maybe next time make a public show of pulping the books for recycling.
Jenny / Sailor Astraea
WOMAN

MtF trans and proud - She / Her / etc.
100% Asbestos Free

Team Mystic
#iamEUropean

"Have you ever had a moment online, when the need to prove someone wrong has outweighed your own self-preservation instincts?"

User avatar
Dakini
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22534
Founded: Antiquity
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Dakini » Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:07 am

Removing the books from library shelves seems reasonable, tbh.

I'm not sure how I feel about them being burnt, but they're not my books to burn (it's also not clear how many were burnt and how many were just recycled, with the limited information in the article, they could have burnt one or two books symbolically and recycled the rest). It's hard to donate library books as they're not usually in great condition so your options for retiring them are rather limited. I guess they could have used them for some arts and crafts projects instead?
Last edited by Dakini on Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Kragholm Free States
Diplomat
 
Posts: 948
Founded: Mar 19, 2017
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Kragholm Free States » Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:14 am

Book burners are enemies of humanity itself.
Formerly New Aerios, Est. 2012.
I don't use NS stats, here's my perpetually WIP factbooks.
Obligatory Political Compass:
Econ: 3.88 (R), Soc: -4.97 (L)
Civil Libertarian, Monarchist, Decentralist, Economic Localist, Englishman.
Old posts not necessarily representative of current views.

User avatar
Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 148123
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Ifreann » Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:17 am

Kragholm Free States wrote:Book burners are enemies of humanity itself.

Seems to me it depends on what books they're burning and why.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Mask Wearing That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing
He/Him

You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

User avatar
Kragholm Free States
Diplomat
 
Posts: 948
Founded: Mar 19, 2017
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Kragholm Free States » Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:18 am

Ifreann wrote:
Kragholm Free States wrote:Book burners are enemies of humanity itself.

Seems to me it depends on what books they're burning and why.

Nah.
Formerly New Aerios, Est. 2012.
I don't use NS stats, here's my perpetually WIP factbooks.
Obligatory Political Compass:
Econ: 3.88 (R), Soc: -4.97 (L)
Civil Libertarian, Monarchist, Decentralist, Economic Localist, Englishman.
Old posts not necessarily representative of current views.

User avatar
Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 148123
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Ifreann » Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:28 am

Kragholm Free States wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Seems to me it depends on what books they're burning and why.

Nah.

Ever see that stupid Day After Tomorrow movie? They're running away from the cold in a library at one point and need to light a fire to keep warm, and one dude flips about them burning books and destroying human cultural treasures during the apocalypse. So they burn copies of the tax code.

I don't know if I'd read them as enemies of humanity.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Mask Wearing That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing
He/Him

You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

User avatar
Kragholm Free States
Diplomat
 
Posts: 948
Founded: Mar 19, 2017
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Kragholm Free States » Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:48 am

Ifreann wrote:
Kragholm Free States wrote:Nah.

Ever see that stupid Day After Tomorrow movie? They're running away from the cold in a library at one point and need to light a fire to keep warm, and one dude flips about them burning books and destroying human cultural treasures during the apocalypse. So they burn copies of the tax code.

I don't know if I'd read them as enemies of humanity.


I don't know if fictional characters in a fictional scenario in, as you say, a stupid movie, really count.
Formerly New Aerios, Est. 2012.
I don't use NS stats, here's my perpetually WIP factbooks.
Obligatory Political Compass:
Econ: 3.88 (R), Soc: -4.97 (L)
Civil Libertarian, Monarchist, Decentralist, Economic Localist, Englishman.
Old posts not necessarily representative of current views.

User avatar
Grave_n_idle
Post Czar
 
Posts: 43945
Founded: Feb 11, 2004
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Grave_n_idle » Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:52 am

GuessTheAltAccount wrote:https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/parenting/school-life/canadian-schools-under-fire-for-reconciliation-book-burning/news-story/7f83c6b893908b7df9d1cb8fa4adb383

Remember when there was an uproar over someone who made a big public spectacle of burning his own copy of the Qur'an? At least that was his to burn. Aren't the taxpayers whose money was taken from them to fund libraries at public schools at least entitled to a refund for the cost of the books that were burned? And when you consider that some of said taxpayers are no longer around to receive their refund, or to weigh in on whether they're okay with the books their tax dollars paid for being burned as long as the money is paid to their loved ones, is even a refund enough to make it ethical? People condemn this stuff, but condemn it more mildly than the Qu'ran one, when it should be the other way around.

As I seem to recall, at the time popular opinion, however split on Islam itself, seemed to be making book burning out to be an especially distasteful way to express your disapproval of a book. I disagree. I don't mind the act of book burning itself if it's your own book. The publisher's already got your money, dude. But shouldn't this be even worse? That book is no longer just a book. That is now public property that is being destroyed. Wouldn't that make it vandalism at the very least?

I also recall that popular opinion blamed "right-wing" ideology for why they thought it appropriate to burn books. But obviously it depends on the books. In this case it's pretty clear that they're not burning books in spite of their "left-wing" ideology, but partly because of it. So why associate book burning with "right-wing" ideology in particular?


One of these situations is a priest deliberately burning a Quran on the anniversary of 9/11 as a deliberate and calculated insult to the entire religion of Islam, and the other is what... a school destroying and/or recycling old books with controversial subject matter.

I don't feel like you accidentally misrepresented this.
WASSER IST LEBEN

User avatar
Lady Victory
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1711
Founded: Apr 27, 2021
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Lady Victory » Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:54 am

I support burning the Twilight Saga. Also 50 Shades of Grey.
☆ American ☆ Nationalist ☆ Christian ☆ Transgender ☆
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."
"Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country."


Metal is For Everyone!
She/Her - Call me Jenny or LV

User avatar
Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 148123
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Ifreann » Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:19 am

Kragholm Free States wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Ever see that stupid Day After Tomorrow movie? They're running away from the cold in a library at one point and need to light a fire to keep warm, and one dude flips about them burning books and destroying human cultural treasures during the apocalypse. So they burn copies of the tax code.

I don't know if I'd read them as enemies of humanity.


I don't know if fictional characters in a fictional scenario in, as you say, a stupid movie, really count.

The movie is stupid, I was not misrepresenting it when I said they were running away from the cold, but it illustrates a possible scenario in which burning books might not be an unmitigated evil. An emergency situation in which people need to light a fire to survive. Would people in such a situation really be enemies of humanity if they burn books rather than die? Especially when those books are of no particular cultural import and are easily replaced? Probably not. So as I said, it depends what books one is burning and why.

Burning books to symbolically repudiate the racism within? If they're not the last surviving copies of the books in question or otherwise unique, it's a bit cringe, but hardly an attack on the human soul itself or anything like that.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Mask Wearing That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing
He/Him

You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

User avatar
Grave_n_idle
Post Czar
 
Posts: 43945
Founded: Feb 11, 2004
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Grave_n_idle » Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:37 am

Kragholm Free States wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Seems to me it depends on what books they're burning and why.

Nah.


No?

So why has no one made a big fuss about the much bigger news story of East Lake County Library in Sorrento, Florida?

There's a movie waiting to be made, right there - a cabal of librarians getting together to create a fake library account (named after the alias of a character from Burn Notice) to bump the circulation of endangered books so that the library district wouldn't burn them?

Books get destroyed all the time. Let's not buy into this false equivalence garbage. Intent 100% matters.
WASSER IST LEBEN

User avatar
Kragholm Free States
Diplomat
 
Posts: 948
Founded: Mar 19, 2017
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Kragholm Free States » Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:45 am

Ifreann wrote:
Kragholm Free States wrote:
I don't know if fictional characters in a fictional scenario in, as you say, a stupid movie, really count.

The movie is stupid, I was not misrepresenting it when I said they were running away from the cold, but it illustrates a possible scenario in which burning books might not be an unmitigated evil. An emergency situation in which people need to light a fire to survive. Would people in such a situation really be enemies of humanity if they burn books rather than die? Especially when those books are of no particular cultural import and are easily replaced? Probably not. So as I said, it depends what books one is burning and why.

Burning books to symbolically repudiate the racism within? If they're not the last surviving copies of the books in question or otherwise unique, it's a bit cringe, but hardly an attack on the human soul itself or anything like that.


Very well, I shall amend my statement: Book burners, except in a survival situation where they need to start a fire and for some reason all they have is books, are enemies of humanity. That's fair enough. Politically motivated book burning, though, is unforgivable no matter the shade of politics involved.

Grave_n_idle wrote:
Kragholm Free States wrote:Nah.


No?

So why has no one made a big fuss about the much bigger news story of East Lake County Library in Sorrento, Florida?

There's a movie waiting to be made, right there - a cabal of librarians getting together to create a fake library account (named after the alias of a character from Burn Notice) to bump the circulation of endangered books so that the library district wouldn't burn them?

Books get destroyed all the time. Let's not buy into this false equivalence garbage. Intent 100% matters.


I'm not sure why nobody's made a big fuss about it, but I'm glad the librarians decided to take action against the district burning those books - I really don't think lack of people reading a particular book warrants its destruction.
Formerly New Aerios, Est. 2012.
I don't use NS stats, here's my perpetually WIP factbooks.
Obligatory Political Compass:
Econ: 3.88 (R), Soc: -4.97 (L)
Civil Libertarian, Monarchist, Decentralist, Economic Localist, Englishman.
Old posts not necessarily representative of current views.

User avatar
Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 148123
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Ifreann » Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:04 am

Kragholm Free States wrote:
Ifreann wrote:The movie is stupid, I was not misrepresenting it when I said they were running away from the cold, but it illustrates a possible scenario in which burning books might not be an unmitigated evil. An emergency situation in which people need to light a fire to survive. Would people in such a situation really be enemies of humanity if they burn books rather than die? Especially when those books are of no particular cultural import and are easily replaced? Probably not. So as I said, it depends what books one is burning and why.

Burning books to symbolically repudiate the racism within? If they're not the last surviving copies of the books in question or otherwise unique, it's a bit cringe, but hardly an attack on the human soul itself or anything like that.


Very well, I shall amend my statement: Book burners, except in a survival situation where they need to start a fire and for some reason all they have is books, are enemies of humanity. That's fair enough. Politically motivated book burning, though, is unforgivable no matter the shade of politics involved.

Why? What's so evil about this particular form of protest?
Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Mask Wearing That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing
He/Him

You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

User avatar
Grave_n_idle
Post Czar
 
Posts: 43945
Founded: Feb 11, 2004
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Grave_n_idle » Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:08 am

Kragholm Free States wrote:I'm not sure why nobody's made a big fuss about it,


It was a fairly major news story because faking circulation can have all kinds of knock-on effects on federal funding, but it's not the right KIND of scandal to really break big.

By which, obviously, I mean it isn't political enough.

Kragholm Free States wrote:...but I'm glad the librarians decided to take action against the district burning those books - I really don't think lack of people reading a particular book warrants its destruction.


Libraries can't just keep an infinite stock of books, so books tend to be rotated out of stock if they are not 'circulated' within a reasonable period. Lots of areas, they will try to sell the books, but if no one buys them and they're not circulating, they are often destroyed. (Burned is common, so they don't end up illegally back in the market. Shredded is also a thing).
WASSER IST LEBEN

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Esternial, Ethel mermania, GuessTheAltAccount, Infected Mushroom, Majestic-12 [Bot], Necroghastia, Neuer California, Page, Pasong Tirad, Port Caverton, Torrocca, Vassenor

Advertisement

Remove ads