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[Draft]A Dialectic Dilemma

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Kors
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Democratic Socialists

[Draft]A Dialectic Dilemma

Postby Kors » Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:03 pm

New draft:
Eligibility:Must have immigration

A Daguo professor of the @@ANIMAL@@ City University was fired after telling a class a word in Daguo that the class thought was an ethnic slur directed at Bigtopians. What they didn't know was that @@HE_1@@ was actually saying one of the most common words in the Daguo language. Distressed college students, Daguo immigrants and several professors promptly showed up to present their cases to you.

Inspiration: A college professor was allegedly fired from his job as a Chinese teacher because he said a Chinese word that seemed very close to an ethnic slur. "Nei-Ga" is the Chinese word for "that", so I am here

The college professor enters the room and presents @@HIS_1@@ case: "I'm fired for teaching a word in Daguo? I'm being disgraced for something that I was meant to teach! These inconsiderate college students who don't even listen to my presentation marched up to the dean and asked me to be fired! I explained in my presentation that it isn't! I demand to be put back into my position as Daguo professor!" The professor leaves the office drenched in anger.

Result: Internet trolls evade website moderation by saying they are from a foreign country.

The streets are filled with the students from the class the teacher taught. A lone man walks in. "This... This RACIST!" Yells college student @@RANDOMNAME@@, who still refuses to listen to the professor's reasoning. "He's a xenophobe who thinks Bigtopians should be segregated! Bar all racists from employment so we can finally have a nation of equality!" @@HE_2@@ smashes @@HIS_2@@ soda bottle on the floor, which shatters and soaks @@HIS_2@@'s frat house hoodie.

Result: People who dislike a color are barred from employment for being "racist".

"Really? Our culture heritage is racist towards bi- bigtobia?" Questions @@RANDOMNAME_SHE@@, Daguo immigrant and the proud mother of the 30-year-old professor. "Maybe @@DENONYM@@ will understand us and appreciate Daguo culture if we show them more of it! Maybe we could have a Little Daguo where people could experience us culture, and be less mean to us!

Result: @@DENONYMPLURAL@@ are surprised to see traditional Daguo lanterns instead of electric lights on lampposts.

4: needs democracy
"Beats me why Daguo immigrants are even here." Says your portly brother, coming out of the washroom after 45 minutes. "We could save a lot of time from this issue by just not allowing them to stay here. We should boot out all those filthy Daguo out of @@PRETITLE@@ and shut our borders from them. No more minorities, no more misunderstanding phrases that ruin our fine country. Maybe even those Lilliputians, those Fedorians, maybe just close our borders for good! All they do is steal our jobs and take up valuable living space. Besides, what if one decides to run an election against you? If they win, I'm blaming you for the loss of my state-funded mansion."

Result: The government is hostile to all ethnicities but their own.

5: needs autocracy
"Beats me why Daguo immigrants are even here." Says your portly brother, coming out of the washroom after 45 minutes. "We could save a lot of time from this issue by just not allowing them to stay here. We should boot out all those filthy Daguo out of @@PRETITLE@@ and shut our borders from them. No more minorities, no more misunderstanding phrases that ruin our fine country. Maybe even those Lilliputians, those Fedorians, maybe just close our borders for good! All they do is steal our jobs and take up valuable living space. Besides, what if one is actually a spy sent to initiate a Daguo-government-sponsored coup? If you do, I'm blaming you for the loss of my state-funded mansion."


Result: The government is hostile to all ethnicities but their own
Last edited by Kors on Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:25 pm, edited 12 times in total.
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Kors
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Postby Kors » Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:40 pm

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Random Country 453632
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Postby Random Country 453632 » Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:01 pm

As this is about a word in a foreign language being mistaken for an ethnic slur, this should probably be an issue that is not receivable for Class nations.
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Kors
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Postby Kors » Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:02 am

/bump
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Outer Sparta
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Postby Outer Sparta » Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:22 pm

Oh, you mean this one: 那个 (nèi ge), and yes, I do know it means "that." Pretty dumb thing to get under fire for, especially if one uses the intonation properly.

I have a few things to question about your premise:
1. "Bee-ga Wee-ga?" I mean, it is hard to come up with original phrases and obviously that means slang in the various languages and NPC nations that exist, but I would say you try to emulate what the Daguo language would be like (similar to Mandarin), but obviously the NS universe is very abstract when it comes to phrases and slang and languages.
2. For option 2, why did you include that the student accuses the professor of being an anti-Semite? I don't think it's established that Bigtopians in NS are Semitic peoples, so it wouldn't make sense to lump those two together. I would just replace "anti-Semitic" with "racist" to simplify things.
3. Does option 3 really do much in the grand scheme of things? Like sure, promoting a country's culture could help with cultural misconceptions, but all you're doing is just having a cultural festival without addressing the root problem.
4. An option to include involving a conservative and anti-academia crusader or an industrialist to basically ban university studies from the nation and go back to some feudalist society would be an interesting third option, though I'm not sure how it would fit into your issue. I think it would be the perfect issue to introduce some archconservative personality that rails against the "liberal academia pc elite" or something like that.

Overall, interesting premise, but obviously a few things to work on.
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Zarulia
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Postby Zarulia » Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:15 am

Kors wrote:@@RANDOMNAME@@, a Daguo professor of the @@ANIMAL@@ City University was fired after allegedly telling a class an ethnic slur directed at Bigtopians. What they didn't know was that @@HE_1@@ was actually saying one of the most common words in the Daguo language. Distressed college students, Daguo immigrants and several professors promptly showed up to present their cases to you.

Inspiration: A college professor was allegedly fired from his job as a Chinese teacher because he said a Chinese word that seemed very close to an ethnic slur. "Nei-Ga" is the Chinese word for "that", so I am here

"I'm fired for teaching a word in Daguo? I'm being disgraced for something that I was meant to teach! You see, the Daguo word "Bee-ga Wee-ga" means "he" in your language. I am simply teaching that, and these inconsiderate college students who don't even listen to my presentation marched up to the dean and asked me to be fired!. While that sounds like "Bigwig", I explained in my presentation that it isn't!" The professor leaves the office drenched in anger.

Result: Internet trolls evade website moderation by saying they are from a foreign country.

"This... This RACIST!" Yells college student and known situational assumer @@RANDOMNAME@@, who still refuses to listen to the professor's reasoning. "He's an anti-semitic who thinks Bigtopians should be forced into slavery, tortured and fed only corn mash for the rest of their life! Bar all racists from employment so we can finally have a nation of equality!" He smashes his beer bottle on the floor, which shatters and soaks his frat house hoodie."

Result: People who dislike a color are barred from employment for being "racist".

"Really? Our culture heritage is race towards bi- bigtobia?" Questions @@RANDOMNAME_SHE@@, Daguo immigrant and the proud mother of the 30-year-old professor. "We should be promoting Daguo culture in @@NAME@@. "Festival! Music! Our yearly firework show! Maybe even 'DaguoTown' in the middle of downtown @@CAPITAL@@. Stand up for our culture!"

Result: @@DENONYMPLURAL@@ cannot go to work without riding in a rickshaw through DaguoTown.

4: needs democracy
"Beats me why Daguo immigrants are even here." Says your portly brother, coming out of the washroom after 45 minutes. "We could save a lot of time from this issue by just not allowing them to stay here. We should boot out all those filthy Daguo out of @@PRETITLE@@ and shut our borders from them. Maybe even those Lilliputians, those Fedorians, maybe just close our borders for good! All they do is steal our jobs and take up valuable living space. Besides, what if one decides to run an election against you? If they win, I'm blaming you for the loss of my state-funded mansion."

Result: A governmental program to end racism involves booting people out of @@NAME@@ based on their ethnicity.

5: needs autocracy
"Beats me why Daguo immigrants are even here." Says your portly brother, coming out of the washroom after 45 minutes. "We could save a lot of time from this issue by just not allowing them to stay here. We should boot out all those filthy Daguo out of @@PRETITLE@@ and shut our borders from them. Maybe even those Lilliputians, those Fedorians, maybe just close our borders for good! All they do is steal our jobs and take up valuable living space. Besides, what if one is actually a spy sent to initiate a Daguo-government-sponsored coup? If you do, I'm blaming you for the loss of my state-funded mansion."

Result: A governmental program to end racism involves booting people out of @@NAME@@ based on their ethnicity.

this issue is quite good to me. just that bigtopians are not semitic people in NS so change "anti-semitic" to something else
thats all

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Verdant Haven
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Verdant Haven » Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:21 pm

The dilemma, as presented, needs some clean up to make the issue clear and to make the language flow naturally. "Telling a class an ethnic slur" means something very different from "saying a word that some of the class mistook for an ethnic slur." In the real situation, for example, it was made abundantly clear that the word being used was not a slur, with translation and usage context being provided in advance. The offense was taken despite knowing it was a common inoffensive foreign word, rather than because it was unknown. That makes for a stronger dilemma, and gives players something to think about on both sides.

I would suggest providing neither the actual word in the Daguo tongue, nor the specific translation. It isn't relevant to the issue specifically what the sound of the word was, or what it actually meant – "I was trying to teach an extremely common word, but students who weren't paying attention mistook it for, you know… that" is more powerful. A player's imagination is a mighty tool, and it's worth leaving some things to it (on top of which, I took a look and can't find any language that uses four syllables for the personal pronoun "he" – it makes the use of specifics even less beneficial). Also, make sure to introduce your speaker in the first option. It currently doesn't say who is talking until after they're done.

The second speaker is presented negatively, which is to say, the player is basically told outright that the speaker is bad and shouldn't be listened to. "Known situational assumer" and "still refuses to listen to [reason]" carry value judgements that transfer to the option itself. Try not to include those! It is ok to characterize speakers in negative ways, but make sure that that characterization is limited only to the speaker – not to the argument they're making. Also, as has already been said by others here, "anti-semitic" is not a relevant term here. Most people read that as specifically "anti-Jewish," and even in its more accurate and broader sense, it wouldn't fit. The argument being made here is also odd – the real students argued that the professor was insensitive and did not acknowledge their discomfort when they brought it up, not that his use of a word somehow translated to promoting torture. Try to show where the speaker is coming from and how they reached that point – don't just drop in at full throttle.

The third speaker, I genuinely don't know what she is trying to say. I realize she probably is supposed to be non-fluent, but "Our cultural heritage is race towards Bigtopia?" simply isn't easily enough understood to know what is being said. Doubly unsure what academic administrative policy questions are resolved by having an ethnic enclave built in the city. She needs to support her argument by making it relevant to the dilemma presented.

For the brother, having an option like this works, but the argument needs to be connected to the issue. "Some students were offended" doesn't jump to "close the borders" without at least a sentence linking one to the other. The effect line gets back to it, but the effect is actually totally disconnected from the option. The option says nothing about ending racism, so having the effect present a government program to that end is very out of the blue. Keep the speakers focused on what the dilemma was, and have them pitching their ideas based on that.
Last edited by Verdant Haven on Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kors
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kors » Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:36 pm

Verdant Haven wrote:The dilemma, as presented, needs some clean up to make the issue clear and to make the language flow naturally. "Telling a class an ethnic slur" means something very different from "saying a word that some of the class mistook for an ethnic slur." In the real situation, for example, it was made abundantly clear that the word being used was not a slur, with translation and usage context being provided in advance. The offense was taken despite knowing it was a common inoffensive foreign word, rather than because it was unknown. That makes for a stronger dilemma, and gives players something to think about on both sides.

Thanks, will do.
Verdant Haven wrote:I would suggest providing neither the actual word in the Daguo tongue, nor the specific translation. It isn't relevant to the issue specifically what the sound of the word was, or what it actually meant – "I was trying to teach an extremely common word, but students who weren't paying attention mistook it for, you know… that" is more powerful. A player's imagination is a mighty tool, and it's worth leaving some things to it (on top of which, I took a look and can't find any language that uses four syllables for the personal pronoun "he" – it makes the use of specifics even less beneficial). Also, make sure to introduce your speaker in the first option. It currently doesn't say who is talking until after they're done.

OK. I'm gonna fix it
Verdant Haven wrote:The second speaker is presented negatively, which is to say, the player is basically told outright that the speaker is bad and shouldn't be listened to. "Known situational assumer" and "still refuses to listen to [reason]" carry value judgements that transfer to the option itself. Try not to include those! It is ok to characterize speakers in negative ways, but make sure that that characterization is limited only to the speaker – not to the argument they're making. Also, as has already been said by others here, "anti-semitic" is not a relevant term here. Most people read that as specifically "anti-Jewish," and even in its more accurate and broader sense, it wouldn't fit. The argument being made here is also odd – the real students argued that the professor was insensitive and did not acknowledge their discomfort when they brought it up, not that his use of a word somehow translated to promoting torture. Try to show where the speaker is coming from and how they reached that point – don't just drop in at full throttle.

Yes, but there are many issues where people are presented in negative ways, and as extremists.
Sure. I'm gonna fix it.
Verdant Haven wrote:The third speaker, I genuinely don't know what she is trying to say. I realize she probably is supposed to be non-fluent, but "Our cultural heritage is race towards Bigtopia?" simply isn't easily enough understood to know what is being said. Doubly unsure what academic administrative policy questions are resolved by having an ethnic enclave built in the city. She needs to support her argument by making it relevant to the dilemma presented.

I'm gonna try to make a compromise for that. I want it to sound as if it's from a foreign tongue, but then again, you may have a point for this.
Verdant Haven wrote:For the brother, having an option like this works, but the argument needs to be connected to the issue. "Some students were offended" doesn't jump to "close the borders" without at least a sentence linking one to the other. The effect line gets back to it, but the effect is actually totally disconnected from the option. The option says nothing about ending racism, so having the effect present a government program to that end is very out of the blue. Keep the speakers focused on what the dilemma was, and have them pitching their ideas based on that.

Yes, I'm fixing the effect line right now.
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Kors
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Postby Kors » Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:48 am

/bump
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Daarwyrth
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Postby Daarwyrth » Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:38 pm

The college professor enters the room and presents @@HIS_1@@'scase: "I'm fired for teaching a word in Daguo? I'm being disgraced for something that I was meant to teach! These inconsiderate college students who don't even listen to my presentation marched up to the dean and asked me to be fired! I explained in my presentation that it isn't!" The professor leaves the office drenched in anger.

I am missing a government action in this option. What is this option going to do? The text only speaks of the professor disagreeing with what happened, but it doesn't say what you, as @@LEADER@@, should do about it. Also, and someone correct me if I am wrong, I doubt a professor would be fired so easily simply because students asked the dean. Most likely there would be a whole procedure, a hearing, a presentation of cases etc.

The streets are filled with the students from the class the teacher taught. A lone man walks in. "This... This RACIST!" Yells college student @@RANDOMNAME@@, who still refuses to listen to the professor's reasoning. "He's a xenophobe who thinks Bigtopians should be segregated! Bar all racists from employment so we can finally have a nation of equality!" @@HE_2@@ smashes @@HIS_2@@ soda bottle on the floor, which shatters and soaks @@HIS_2@@'s frat house hoodie.

I am a little unsure about this option. I mean, someone would have to be incredibly dense not to understand that this was a mistake and not intentional. I think it would make more sense if the speaker provided an option that was more directed at the issue at hand. Perhaps he or she could suggest that languages with potential racial slurs are barred from being taught in the nation? I think that would be more contextually relevant than simply saying "ban racism" :)

Result: The government is hostile to all ethnicities but their own.

I think this effect line could be a little sharper with the humour, as this is fairly tame in my opinion.

Overall, an interesting topic and you have established the issue well-enough in broad strokes, but the text and draft need a little polishing before its ready. I'm eager to see where you'll take it!
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Kors
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Postby Kors » Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:58 pm

New draft:
Eligibility:Must have immigration

A Daguo professor of the @@ANIMAL@@ City University was fired after telling a class a word in Daguo that the class thought was an ethnic slur directed at Bigtopians. What they didn't know was that @@HE_1@@ was actually saying one of the most common words in the Daguo language. Distressed college students, Daguo immigrants and several professors promptly showed up to present their cases to you.

Inspiration: A college professor was allegedly fired from his job as a Chinese teacher because he said a Chinese word that seemed very close to an ethnic slur. "Nei-Ga" is the Chinese word for "that", so I am here

The college professor enters the room and presents @@HIS_1@@'scase: "I'm fired for teaching a word in Daguo? I'm being disgraced for something that I was meant to teach! These inconsiderate college students who don't even listen to my presentation marched up to the dean and asked me to be fired! I explained in my presentation that it isn't! I demand to be put back into my position as Daguo professor!" The professor leaves the office drenched in anger.

Result: Internet trolls evade website moderation by saying they are from a foreign country.

The streets are filled with the students from the class the teacher taught. A lone man walks in. "This... This RACIST!" Yells college student @@RANDOMNAME@@, who still refuses to listen to the professor's reasoning. "He's a xenophobe who thinks Bigtopians should be segregated! Bar all racists from employment so we can finally have a nation of equality!" @@HE_2@@ smashes @@HIS_2@@ soda bottle on the floor, which shatters and soaks @@HIS_2@@'s frat house hoodie.

Result: People who dislike a color are barred from employment for being "racist".

"Really? Our culture heritage is racist towards bi- bigtobia?" Questions @@RANDOMNAME_SHE@@, Daguo immigrant and the proud mother of the 30-year-old professor. "Maybe @@DENONYM@@ will understand us and appreciate Daguo culture if we show them more of it! Maybe we could have a Little Daguo where people could experience us culture, and be less mean to us!

Result: @@DENONYMPLURAL@@ are surprised to see traditional Daguo lanterns instead of electric lights on lampposts.

4: needs democracy
"Beats me why Daguo immigrants are even here." Says your portly brother, coming out of the washroom after 45 minutes. "We could save a lot of time from this issue by just not allowing them to stay here. We should boot out all those filthy Daguo out of @@PRETITLE@@ and shut our borders from them. No more minorities, no more misunderstanding phrases that ruin our fine country. Maybe even those Lilliputians, those Fedorians, maybe just close our borders for good! All they do is steal our jobs and take up valuable living space. Besides, what if one decides to run an election against you? If they win, I'm blaming you for the loss of my state-funded mansion."

Result: The government is hostile to all ethnicities but their own.

5: needs autocracy
"Beats me why Daguo immigrants are even here." Says your portly brother, coming out of the washroom after 45 minutes. "We could save a lot of time from this issue by just not allowing them to stay here. We should boot out all those filthy Daguo out of @@PRETITLE@@ and shut our borders from them. No more minorities, no more misunderstanding phrases that ruin our fine country. Maybe even those Lilliputians, those Fedorians, maybe just close our borders for good! All they do is steal our jobs and take up valuable living space. Besides, what if one is actually a spy sent to initiate a Daguo-government-sponsored coup? If you do, I'm blaming you for the loss of my state-funded mansion."


Result: The government is hostile to all ethnicities but their own.
Last edited by Kors on Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Outer Sparta » Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:06 pm

Post your new draft in the OP instead of clogging it deep in the thread.
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Random Country 453632
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Postby Random Country 453632 » Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:10 pm

^




The last option should give No Immigration Policy

Also I like that subtle nod to The Python's draft lol
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Postby Australian rePublic » Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:23 pm

What was the word and what does it mean?
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Kors
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Postby Kors » Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:54 pm

It means " that " in Chinese but sounds like the N-word in English. Pretty dumb reason to be fired.
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Postby Australian rePublic » Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:03 pm

Kors wrote:It means " that " in Chinese but sounds like the N-word in English. Pretty dumb reason to be fired.

You mean like how "negro" means "black" in Spanish? Either way, make up a word and specify it in this issue
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Bears Armed
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Bears Armed » Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:30 am

Kors wrote:It means " that " in Chinese but sounds like the N-word in English. Pretty dumb reason to be fired.

In RL there was somebody in an English-speaking society (working for the Mayor in Washington DC) who was forced to resign because some people objected to his using the English word "niggardly" -- which means stingy with money, time, etc -- and apparently his boss initially didn't recognise that this wasn't a reference to 'the N-word'.
:roll:

EDIT: reference found (https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/l ... 020499.htm), some details in the above passage changed -- e.g. "forced to resign" rather than "fired" -- now that I've read that article.
Last edited by Bears Armed on Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:09 am, edited 5 times in total.
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