by Gorundu » Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:50 am
by Guy » Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:03 am
We don't enforce political correctness in this game, nor do we guarantee you won't be offended. Please see the Etiquette FAQ for a further bit of explanation.
[violet] wrote:Never underestimate the ability of admin to do nothing.
by Bears Armed » Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:12 am
by Gorundu » Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:18 am
Bears Armed wrote:One more way in which raiders who seize a region could oppress the natives...
by Sedgistan » Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:28 am
by Gorundu » Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:35 am
Sedgistan wrote:Directing players from RMBs that are moderated by site staff according to site rules, towards Discord servers which - as is well known - have all sorts of murky rules (if any), enforcement, and moderation problems, sounds counter-productive.
by Mzeusia » Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:50 am
by Sedgistan » Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:58 am
Guy wrote:What NS needs are new rules, and frankly, rules that are lawful in the jurisdiction in which it operates.
Gorundu wrote:Well then, the fact that many players believe the opposite to be true indicates there is much to fix with the site rules.
by Guy » Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:04 am
Sedgistan wrote:But I would suggest it not be Guy who does so, since a player who has been bragging about calling Moderators "fucking piece of shit cuntfaces" via GHR just over an hour ago, is probably not going to post on the right side of the "Bad Faith" rules.
[violet] wrote:Never underestimate the ability of admin to do nothing.
by Visionary Union » Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:09 am
Sedgistan wrote:This goes in completely the opposite direction to where we're aiming with communications -- bringing them onsite, and improving RMBs (e.g. forum-lite features) is part of that. I see no chance of this progressing.
Directing players from RMBs that are moderated by site staff according to site rules, towards Discord servers which - as is well known - have all sorts of murky rules (if any), enforcement, and moderation problems, sounds counter-productive.
by Sedgistan » Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:23 am
by Visionary Union » Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:34 am
Sedgistan wrote:Except that people have engaged with it, including posters in this thread. None of this is new; it's possible to be on this site and express views that are homophobic, racist, transphobic, sexist, ageist, and most other things. We encourage open debate. We do not ban viewpoints; what is important is how those views are expressed.
If this is a TRR specific problem, then perhaps people need to consider moving to another region, or creating one of their own. By its nature, TRR gets players who are unwanted in other regions, and sometimes that will be because they have objectionable viewpoints that they can nonetheless (mostly) post in a rules-abiding fashion. If that is a problem for you, then try a region that has ejection + banning powers (i.e. literally any other region) because then you have the tools to remove those players.
If you choose to reside in TRR, you have to deal with more of those types.
Sedgistan wrote:If you choose to reside in TRR, you have to deal with more of those types.
by Great Algerstonia » Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:36 am
Resilient Acceleration wrote:After a period of letting this discussion run its course without my involvement due to sheer laziness and a new related NS project, I have returned with an answer and that answer is Israel.
by Comfed » Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:45 am
Bears Armed wrote:One more way in which raiders who seize a region could oppress the natives...
by Visionary Union » Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:50 am
by Great Algerstonia » Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:53 am
Visionary Union wrote:I do agree that muting the entire RMB is unfair collective punishment that can be exploited by bad faith actors, which would lead to the reasonable conclusion that nations with executive powers in a region should be able to temporarily RMB mute specific nations.
Resilient Acceleration wrote:After a period of letting this discussion run its course without my involvement due to sheer laziness and a new related NS project, I have returned with an answer and that answer is Israel.
by Visionary Union » Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:56 am
Great Algerstonia wrote:Visionary Union wrote:I do agree that muting the entire RMB is unfair collective punishment that can be exploited by bad faith actors, which would lead to the reasonable conclusion that nations with executive powers in a region should be able to temporarily RMB mute specific nations.
Muting specific nations is fine. But muting the entire RMB is absurd, and moves a communication feature for tons of NSers and I will always be opposed to such an idea.
by Great Algerstonia » Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:55 am
Visionary Union wrote:Great Algerstonia wrote:Muting specific nations is fine. But muting the entire RMB is absurd, and moves a communication feature for tons of NSers and I will always be opposed to such an idea.
Yes. Players shouldn't suffer just because some of them chose to be insufferable pricks.
Resilient Acceleration wrote:After a period of letting this discussion run its course without my involvement due to sheer laziness and a new related NS project, I have returned with an answer and that answer is Israel.
by Grishahakkaverchynot » Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:21 am
by Visionary Union » Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:49 am
Great Algerstonia wrote:Visionary Union wrote:Yes. Players shouldn't suffer just because some of them chose to be insufferable pricks.
To elaborate further-- do you think that such a power should be granted to Communications, be it's own RO power, or be open to the Delegate? Also do you think the amount of muted people should be limited? I lean towards unlimited muting only for it's own special power.
by Galiantus III » Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:05 am
Visionary Union wrote:Sounds like victim blaming to me. We don't choose what people get ejected to us, and we can't remove them like other regions do. There is no other region that would suffer this kind of RMB, because even loony fash regions don't straight up say that they support evictions by race, calling women gold diggers or claim that LGBT+ are pretenders.
Frisbeeteria wrote:For some reason I have a mental image of a dolphin, trying to organize a new pod of his fellow dolphins to change the course of a nuclear sub. It's entertaining, I'll give ya that.
Ballotonia wrote:Testing is for sissies. The actual test is to see how many people complain when any change is made ;)
by USS Monitor » Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:27 am
Visionary Union wrote:I do agree that muting the entire RMB is unfair collective punishment that can be exploited by bad faith actors, which would lead to the reasonable conclusion that nations with executive powers in a region should be able to temporarily RMB mute specific nations.
by Visionary Union » Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:16 am
USS Monitor wrote:Visionary Union wrote:I do agree that muting the entire RMB is unfair collective punishment that can be exploited by bad faith actors, which would lead to the reasonable conclusion that nations with executive powers in a region should be able to temporarily RMB mute specific nations.
Muting specific players is also easy to exploit by bad faith actors. What's to stop raiders from muting natives and taunting them about it? What's to stop an RO from using the mute button to win a debate?
by Flanderlion » Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:13 pm
Visionary Union wrote:USS Monitor wrote:Muting specific players is also easy to exploit by bad faith actors. What's to stop raiders from muting natives and taunting them about it? What's to stop an RO from using the mute button to win a debate?
As I said, only the delegate should have that power. Also, wouldn't be too much off a difference in raids, considering that unless you're tagging, the end goal would be to ban natives out to refound the region, so I hardly see it as more violent.
Flanderlion wrote:Katganistan wrote:https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=38763272#p38763272
Drew Durrnil made this suggestion in the Comms idea thread. I am interested in seeing what players think the pros and cons of such a feature would be. Is this something that we want to add in the RMB upgrade? Why or why not?
Wrote up a big post on this but dumbly didn't back it up before I clicked post, which deleted it all when the duplicate topic was merged back.
I'm against, the idea has popped up a lot in the past, taking various forms. Almost exclusively has been posted by players who can't face their region members seeing viewpoints other than their own, but also don't want to eject the nation posting. Thankfully, despite this, admin/moderation has held strong until now.
There is a vast selection of prior threads on this, and I won't bother to rewrite my views on it again (as they're in old threads), but I'll just link a few below in the spoiler:Reploid Productions wrote:And here to be a buzzkill as to why it is incredibly unlikely that this would be implemented:
1) It hurts intra-regional politicking, as whoever has the mute power can completely censor/silence the opposition. With regular post suppression, players can still view what was written, and use that information to determine whether or not the suppression was justified, and respond accordingly.
2) Such a tool would be immediately used by raiders to censor an invaded region and perform reason #1 everywhere.
3) If someone is posting rulebreaking material (flaming/trolling/spamming,) silencing them is a moderation matter. We have the Getting Help page for that.
4) Completely muting someone's ability to post to an RMB is a game moderator power. That is not something that can or should be handed out to non-moderators.
CAPTAIN BUZZKILL AWAAAAAAAAAY!
(Image)
~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru TeikokuBallotonia wrote:You can already chose from which regions nation can post on your RMB, by selecting only those to exchange an embassy with those regions' nations you trust.
For RMB posting control we have the suppression mechanism, allowing a founder or delegate to suppress undesirable posts from the RMB.
The only option to prevent nations from posting to your RMB in the first place is to ban them from your region.
Note that the price for silencing others is it being public that you do so. This is on purpose.
BallotoniaAbove is Reppy's summary of this thread: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=358038#p26411781 - Fris/Blaat/Mouse against, Sedge posting but not expressing a view (just yelling at someone for contributing nothing), [v] saying it's feasible, but not much different from suppression/ejection.Reploid Productions wrote:Just going to be a total Captain Buzzkill (I'm apparently good at that) and share the last "RMB ban" suggestion where Fris pretty neatly spelled out why that's pretty unlikely to happen, along with [violet] basically saying that it's a fix looking for a problem.
viewtopic.php?p=32622035#p32622035 - Fris/Elu against in this one.
Obviously past views don't always represent present ones, but all current admins bar two (Pyth/Salusa who aren't super active), and all current Senior Mods bar two (Sedge who expressed no view, and Katganistan) have expressed views against this in the past. Obviously, they are all viewpoints, and Katganistan's view is the only one that counts here, but as the current idea stands, I'm against. Fine with auto-suppression, as the posts are still visible to players that are interested, but not with non-mods either deleting players posts/preventing them from being able to post at all on their own RMB.
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