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Who do you believe is the rightful Carlist Claimant?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Who do you think is the rightful carlist claimant?

-Prince Carlos, Duke of Parma (As Carlos Javier II)
6
19%
-Sixto Enrique (As Enrique V)
1
3%
-Prince Dominic (Domingo I)
1
3%
-Felipe VI
5
16%
-Louis Alphonse (No regnal name)
0
No votes
-Other
14
45%
-No one, Sixto is regent
4
13%
 
Total votes : 31

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Exalted Inquellian State
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Who do you believe is the rightful Carlist Claimant?

Postby Exalted Inquellian State » Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:38 pm

Carlism was(and technically, still is) a movement from Spain that started in the 19th century. They believed King Ferdinand VII changed the succession illegally, and that his daughter couldn't be Queen, which would make his brother Carlos the King of Spain. To add fuel to the fire, Isabella and her mother(who was regent) were supported by liberals who wanted to reform Spain's government closer to a constitutional monarchy, and also believed Spain should be centralized. This caused a civil war, which ended in Carlist defeat due to foreign support of the liberals and the death of good Carlist generals. A Second One was fought from 1846 to 1849 under the next Carlist pretender, who got support from Catalonia due to the Carlists support of local autonomy. A third one occurred after Isabella was ousted and an Italian king installed, which caused many people to join the Carlists and a rival republic to be proclaimed. The Carlists had a lot of success, but eventually Isabella's son, Alfonso XII(who a lot of the Carlists considered illegitimate) was installed. The Carlists remained an influence in Spain up until the Spanish Civil War from 1936 to 1939, where they joined Franco. However, problems began for the movement.

Besides Franco steadily gaining control, the second carlist pretender, also named Carlos, didn't have children, and the fourth one, once again named Carlos, only had one son, Jaime, who didn't have children anyway. The sixth one, Alfonso Carlos, became pretender in his 80's, and died due to being hit by a car in 1936. He said that after his death, Prince Xavier of Bourbon-Parma would serve as "regent" until a new King was selected. Xavier actually was related to the Spanish kings, but preceding him were the pretenders to the throne of Two Sicilies and some of his brothers. Xavier served as regent, during which time Carlism splintered. The fourth pretender had a daughter named Blanca, who had a son named Karl Pius, and Karl Pius claimed the throne, even holding ambitions before Alsonso Carlos died. His brothers pressed their own claims only after he died despite being older and some having morganatic marriages (though it's possible they or Karl Pius approved their marriages, thus legitimizing them). The current pretender of this line is Prince Dominic, calling himself Domingo I. He is in a morganatic marriage, and the fact his claim comes from a woman has been considered as undermining the Carlist movement. A few Carlists jumped to Alfonso XIII, because he actually was a male line descendant of Charles IV, father of Ferdinand VII and Carlos, though most Carlists claimed his great-grandfather and grandfather committed treason and that Isabella conceived his father with someone else anyway. Jaime, Alsonso's second son, declared himself Carlist pretender after rescinding his claim, though he recognized his brother as King of Spain later and his descendants haven't pressed their claims either, instead focusing on France. Xavier declared himself King in the 50's after over a decade of being regent, and had two sons-Carlos Hugo, and Sixtus Henry. Carlos Hugo, out of either opportunism to try and revive the movement or genuine belief, drifted to Titoism, and founded what was essentially a monarcho-socialist party in 1970. His brother believed he betrayed Carlist tradition and declared himself Regent, though he said that if Carlos Hugo or his sons embraced Carlist tradition he would accept them as monarch. Some, however, call him Enrique V, though who succeeds him is unclear given he has no children and is 81. His brother died in 2010, and was succeeded in his claim by Prince Carlos of Parma. Carlos said he will not press his claim, and is in a morganatic marriage, though it's ambiguous if his father approved it. Technically, if we follow male primogeniture without Alfonso's ancestors, there are many lines. So, after all this, who do you think is the Carlist pretender: Carlos of Parma, Sixtus Henry, Philipe VI, Prince Dominic, Louis Alphonse(grandson of Jaime), someone else with a male line and non-morganatic history(at least after the 19th when they would've been in the line of succession), or no one, with Sixtus as regent?

I'm not a Carlist or monarcho-socialist, but I would say Carlos of Parma is the Carlist claimant, going by Alfonso Carlos' will. His father was aware he was going to marry, and lifted his wife to nobility shortly before his death, which didn't equalize the marriage, but didn't bar Carlos from succession, because the Pragmatic Sanction of 1776 authorized morganatic marriages if the King permitted them. Sixtus Henry also said he would be fine with Carlos or his brother, also named Jaime, ascending if they adopted Carlist traditions, showing that, even if he was regent or King(it should be noted Carlos Hugo resigned his claims until 2003 when he started claiming the throne again) he approved of the marriages and Carlos' succession.

If you follow the male line without any wills saying who the King or Regent is, it might actually be the Royal House of Brazil, or at least the branch headed by Prince Luiz. I don't know enough about the 1776 Sanction to know who it applies to, but if it doesn't apply to people who aren't members of the royal family at the time, it will be safe to go down the Dukes of Orleans. As the current Orleanist pretender married morganatically, we will have to go back to Louis Philippe I's second son, who's own son married into the Brazilian royal family. Following the non-morganatic branch, we arrive at Prince Luiz. Now, assuming everyone who even wants to have a remote chance of getting the throne needs the King's permission, I'd argue it's no one, with Sixtus Henry as regent. Carlists have made up their mind for the most part that Felipe VI is the descendant of either an illegitimate, treasonous, or both illegitimate and treasonous branch of the family(not helped by the fact Felipe VI only has daughters), and without him and the Dukes of Orleans, no one is left with legitimate rights, meaning Carlism will need a regent for a long time. Or it can just become a pro-monarchy movement which wants the King of Spain to have more power, but I find that unlikely. Still, overall, I find Carlos of Parma to be the rightful claimant.
Last edited by Exalted Inquellian State on Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Lady Victory
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Postby Lady Victory » Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:20 pm

There is no such thing as a "rightful claimant" because monarchs do not have a right to rule, nor should they. Monarchism is the worst system Mankind has ever devised, after Fascism, and belongs in history books and high fantasy settings.
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:26 pm

Me. Despite having no Spanish heritage I will claim the throne.

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Postby Exalted Inquellian State » Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:28 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:Me. Despite having no Spanish heritage I will claim the throne.

That makes two monarcho-socialist non-spanish claimants that will likely never seriously attempt to reach the claim, and are in morganatic marriages.
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Postby Thermodolia » Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:31 pm

Monarchs are stinky poo. And thus who gets to be the rightful claimant doesn’t matter
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Postby Sundiata » Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:32 pm

I presumed the King of Spain.
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Postby Conservative Republic Of Huang » Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:28 pm

I really don't understand why anyone cares. Especially why nearly a century afterwards in the Spanish Civil War why people were willing to die over who got to wear the shiny crown.
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Postby Kragholm Free States » Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:38 pm

Lady Victory wrote:There is no such thing as a "rightful claimant" because monarchs do not have a right to rule, nor should they. Monarchism is the worst system Mankind has ever devised, after Fascism, and belongs in history books and high fantasy settings.


Because the worst among mankind lying and cheating their way to victory in a ritual popularity contest propped up by divisive propaganda and corruption and legitimised by absurd whig history narratives is just so much better, isn't it.
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Postby Torrocca » Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:38 pm

I call dibs!
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Postby Meebritolia » Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:39 pm

me, i have 2.6 octillion hats, making me the legitimate ruler of the entire observable universe
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:53 pm

Thrones are for sitting, not to govern countries with.

Monarchs are butterflies. Bugs.

So I pick none. The less relevant this is, the better.
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Postby Nilokeras » Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:03 pm

Kragholm Free States wrote:
Lady Victory wrote:There is no such thing as a "rightful claimant" because monarchs do not have a right to rule, nor should they. Monarchism is the worst system Mankind has ever devised, after Fascism, and belongs in history books and high fantasy settings.


Because the worst among mankind lying and cheating their way to victory in a ritual popularity contest propped up by divisive propaganda and corruption and legitimised by absurd whig history narratives is just so much better, isn't it.


Better than 'one of my ancestors 1000 years ago raped and murdered their way into being the petty bandit lord of this ruined Roman villa, now me and my family of giant chins and webbed feet are the King of Illyria by the grace of God and nobody else'

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Exalted Inquellian State
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Postby Exalted Inquellian State » Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:19 pm

As much as it is tempting to argue whether monarchism, republicanism, or anarchism are better, we should probably stick to the question of succession for now.
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Postby Alcala-Cordel » Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:30 pm

How about Samuel L. Jackson? I don't think he's related to the monarchs but if I have to pick someone he's pretty damn cool
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Postby Lepane » Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:37 pm

Obama's pretty sick, can we choose him?
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Postby Rio Cana » Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:52 pm

None of those on the list since they are Bourbons. Bourbons belong in France. If by some chance the Spanish people want to continue the monarchy then pick an Iberian dynasty. The Trastamara dynasty was the last Iberian dynasty. It ended in 1556. Former queen Isabela and former king Ferdinand use to belong to the Trastamara dynasty.
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Odreria
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Postby Odreria » Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:58 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:Me. Despite having no Spanish heritage I will claim the throne.

actually i'm one sixteenth spanish so it should be me.
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Exalted Inquellian State
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Postby Exalted Inquellian State » Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:52 pm

To be honest, the replies here and the poll summarize what carlism has become better than I could-a fringe movement bordering on a joke that has no chance of gaining power.

Also, I was gonna suggest either Balthazar Napoleon IV de Bourbon, Hugues de Bourbon, or Charles Louis de Bourbon would be claimants, but two of those are in morganatic marriages and Hugues' father was in one as well.
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Postby Saralonia » Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:58 pm

I am Mexican, can I claim the throne? going back far enough there's gotta be some Spanish blood in me, surely
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Postby Exalted Inquellian State » Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:10 pm

Saralonia wrote:I am Mexican, can I claim the throne? going back far enough there's gotta be some Spanish blood in me, surely

I'm not gonna bother counting how many socialists in morganatic marriages with no serious aspirations claim the Carlist throne, or how many of them don't speak Spanish.
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Exalted Inquellian State
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Postby Exalted Inquellian State » Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:11 pm

Rio Cana wrote:None of those on the list since they are Bourbons. Bourbons belong in France. If by some chance the Spanish people want to continue the monarchy then pick an Iberian dynasty. The Trastamara dynasty was the last Iberian dynasty. It ended in 1556. Former queen Isabela and former king Ferdinand use to belong to the Trastamara dynasty.

I think they married into the Habsburgs. If we follow from Charles II that bring us back to the Bourbons. Though, I think they used male-prefference cognatic primogeniture. That would make us end up with Prince Pedro, Duke of Calabria.
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Postby Resilient Acceleration » Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:15 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:Me. Despite having no Spanish heritage I will claim the throne.

This is literally true, though. Monarchical claims throughout history have been guided by the core principle known as "Bigger Army DIplomacy".
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:15 pm

I don't really know, all I know is that Carlists and Abertzale Left don't really get along and instead of VOX, the Basque Country has Carlists to fill the reactionary role as many Carlists became Falangist puppets in Basque Country.

That being said, there's a lot of claimants and I'd need to do genology to determine which one is the most suitable to determine the right answer for the poll.
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Postby Exalted Inquellian State » Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:16 pm

Resilient Acceleration wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:Me. Despite having no Spanish heritage I will claim the throne.

This is literally true, though. Monarchical claims throughout history have been guided by the core principle known as "Bigger Army DIplomacy".

If that were true, there wouldn't be pretenders.
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Resilient Acceleration
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Postby Resilient Acceleration » Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:18 pm

Exalted Inquellian State wrote:
Resilient Acceleration wrote:This is literally true, though. Monarchical claims throughout history have been guided by the core principle known as "Bigger Army DIplomacy".

If that were true, there wouldn't be pretenders.

Said pretenders are disqualified due to their failure in fulfilling the requirements of Bigger Army Diplomacy, and do ascend the throne from time to time if they successfully conformed to the principle.

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