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Do persecution of certain groups get more attention?

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Dowaesk
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Do persecution of certain groups get more attention?

Postby Dowaesk » Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:01 am

I probably dont need to further explain the title, but basically my question is "Do persecution of certain groups get more attention than others?". I know its obvious the answer is yes. But I am not talking about getting some slight variations of attention, but rather huge ones with huge variations. To provide an example, we all have heard of the Holocaust. This incident is talked about about over and over on the internet and even in daily life. This sometimes lead us to ignore other genocides that have happened. Just because it hasnt resulted in as much deaths as the Holocaust. Dont get me wrong. The Holocaust was a huge thing and must never be forgotten. Lets be honest. Holocaust had lead us to ignore a genocide that happened along with it. The Romani Genocide. This genocide left about half a million or more dead, yet it was largely forgotten. The Holocaust did have significanlty more deaths than the Romani Genocide. This article from the holocaustremembrance.com talks about something similar to what I am questioning here. It advocates for the comparing of other genocides with holocaust as to increase recognition of other genocides. Now moving away from the Holocaust, as it isnt really specifically what the question talks about. Take a look at the Rohingya Genocide and at the Yazidi Genocide. The latter got either more or almost the same level of recognition and international attention as the former. With the second example, its not about one genocide hiding behind a bigger one. Its about 2 different ones with 2 different victims. Rohingya genocide obviously had so much more victims than the Yazidi Genocide. Yet question remains on why. Was it because of the identity of the perpetrators or the identity of the victims? The 2 genocides basically revolve around one specific community that I am trying to put significance on. Selfish? Okay sorry. I will move onto a 3rd example. This only goes for people who consider the situation in Gaza to be genocide. Compare the situation in Gaza as to the situation in Uygur. Obviously the latter has killed more. And even more obviously the latter gets less attention. For a 4th example I give to you the rest of the many other genocides. These genocides get different variations of attention. Is it about who is the victims. Or who is the perpetrators. Or some other factor such as how much media attention it gets depending on how modern or advanced the nation is.

The question of "Do persecution of certain groups get more attention than others?" does not apply just in cases of mass genocides. But active non-genocidal persecution as well. Doesnt necessarily have to include deaths. But obviously, it does and should get more attention when death is involved. The main question may be about the persecuted but when this question and the question of recognition comes up, we cant do this without bringing up the identity of who the persecutor is. But since the question asks more about persecution based on the identity of the persecuted, answering it based on that is the main motive.

So, Users of NS, hit me with your answers.

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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:57 pm

IMO, it’s about current circumstances, place and history. To exemplify: BLM highlighting an ongoing problem with racism against black people in the US. In Palestine, it’s the killing of Palestinians. For the Chinese, it might be the Ughyur. Or not. It’s China after all. In Canada, it’s First Nations’ people getting killed. It’s very dependent on geography. At least that’s what I think.

To resume: you’re probably aware of particular persecutions in other countries but those happening where you are living at will take precedent and media attention.
Last edited by Nanatsu no Tsuki on Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Rusozak » Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:05 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:IMO, it’s about current circumstances, place and history. To exemplify: BLM highlighting an ongoing problem with racism against black people in the US. In Palestine, it’s the killing of Palestinians. For the Chinese, it might be the Ughyur. Or not. It’s China after all. In Canada, it’s First Nations’ people getting killed. It’s very dependent on geography. At least that’s what I think.


But it's a little different when it's multiple persecuted groups in the same society. In America, black people get more attention than Latinos and Asians. And they all get more attention than the native Americans which practically don't even have a voice at a national level.
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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:08 pm

Rusozak wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:IMO, it’s about current circumstances, place and history. To exemplify: BLM highlighting an ongoing problem with racism against black people in the US. In Palestine, it’s the killing of Palestinians. For the Chinese, it might be the Ughyur. Or not. It’s China after all. In Canada, it’s First Nations’ people getting killed. It’s very dependent on geography. At least that’s what I think.


But it's a little different when it's multiple persecuted groups in the same society. In America, black people get more attention than Latinos and Asians. And they all get more attention than the native Americans which practically don't even have a voice at a national level.


Gimme a break. I’m on the road and couldn’t add every single group. I don’t disagree with your point, mind you. All I’m saying is that attention is, imo, very dependent on where you are and what’s happening in your society.
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Postby Dakini » Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:11 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:IMO, it’s about current circumstances, place and history. To exemplify: BLM highlighting an ongoing problem with racism against black people in the US. In Palestine, it’s the killing of Palestinians. For the Chinese, it might be the Ughyur. Or not. It’s China after all. In Canada, it’s First Nations’ people getting killed. It’s very dependent on geography. At least that’s what I think.

To resume: you’re probably aware of particular persecutions in other countries but those happening where you are living at will take precedent and media attention.

The Romani are currently still treated poorly and still get relatively little attention (many people also argue in favour of using a racial slur to refer to them). Just this year a Romani man was killed by Czech police who knelt on his neck.
Last edited by Dakini on Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:14 pm

Dakini wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:IMO, it’s about current circumstances, place and history. To exemplify: BLM highlighting an ongoing problem with racism against black people in the US. In Palestine, it’s the killing of Palestinians. For the Chinese, it might be the Ughyur. Or not. It’s China after all. In Canada, it’s First Nations’ people getting killed. It’s very dependent on geography. At least that’s what I think.

To resume: you’re probably aware of particular persecutions in other countries but those happening where you are living at will take precedent and media attention.

The Romani are currently still treated poorly and still get relatively little attention (many people also argue in favour of using a racial slur to refer to them). Just this year a Romani man was killed by Czech police who knelt on his neck.


The Romani are always mistreated back home. Displaced and abused and because many want them gone, I think it’s easy to sweep the persecution under the rug. People just look the other way.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:51 pm

Groups usually get attention either when they have accumulated capital to lobby for their interests, or when they adopt violent means to disrupt capital accumulation of others and cause them to adopt a cost-benefit analysis. ("We can either lose 10 million a year to this violence, or we can front 5 million a year to advance this groups interests and shut them up.").

Everything else seems to be fairly unrelated. Romani tend to have basically no capital, and despite stereotypes, are not in the habit of deciding to set up shop in wealthy areas and trashing the place in response to their mistreatment.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kerwa
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Postby Kerwa » Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:06 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Everything else seems to be fairly unrelated. Romani tend to have basically no capital, and despite stereotypes, are not in the habit of deciding to set up shop in wealthy areas and trashing the place in response to their mistreatment.


Well you add in that travelers are not a homogeneous community. For example some people think that gypsy is a slur, but there are people in the UK who call themselves gypsy and who are represented by the Gypsy Council. Then there are Irish Travelers who are not Romani etc.

You can’t just label everyone Romani.

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Pasong Tirad
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Postby Pasong Tirad » Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:53 pm

The answer is obviously yes. It should also not be controversial to state that the active and ongoing persecution of certain groups around the world is routinely ignored in favor of, uh, idk, international relations? Economics, maybe?

Turkey is actively persecuting Kurds within its own country (through direct repression and through allowing civilian mobs to harass and sometimes outright massacre Kurds), and committing acts of mass violence against Kurds in Syria and Iraq. I suppose it would be one thing if those attacks actually are just aimed at militant groups that supposedly threaten the territorial integrity of Turkey or whatever, but we have clear documented cases of just the most random attacks against civilian populations and towns. All of this is routinely ignored because Turkey is a key ally in the region of both the United States and Russia, and their relationship with Turkey is considered more important than human rights and human lives.

I'm sure there are many more examples out there, but this is the one that first came to my mind.

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Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:33 pm

Indeed, the persecution of some groups is more emphasized.

To take an example, look at how many movies there are about the Holocaust (and emphasizing the Jewish point of view). There’s probably more movies about it than all other genocides combined. I think it’s not balanced.

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Postby Bombadil » Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:43 pm

You can look at HK to see the sweet spot for international attention:

1. Major media on the ground - there's not a lot of media in, say, remote regions of Turkey or Myanmar for example, so less coverage of the situation
2. Connectivity - few us might know a Burmese or a Romani, but HKers are very globally connected and especially among those who influence media - so it seems more relevant - they have access to internet and social platforms as well.
3. Imagery - there's a reason dissent devolves to violence, it's better fuel for the news cycle - since the protests have essentially stopped there's now less coverage
4. Relevance - the plight of the Romani doesn't have that much relevance to the average person, whereas HK sits at the centre of the ideological battle between China and the US - easy to grasp and highly newsworthy

So with far less violence and less persecution the HK protests caught global attention in a way many other causes simply do not.
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Postby Tawsh » Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:48 pm

From www.Jackpineradicals.com, 2016
Not sure whether the article is still up for general viewing, so...

NOTE TO THE MODS: since I wrote the original article, I'm going to quote all paragraphs relevant to the OP - especially when the original article was 19+ pages

And that’s when the third facet of identity politics is hatched: the spiteful voter. More often than not, you’ll find them among the groups that once had next to nothing. I’ll explain this phenomenon by means of two extreme examples. Historian Frank Ankersmit argues that the mundane is best explained by the extreme; I’m going to give his theory a go.

We tend to believe that hardship breeds compassion. And indeed, there are many compassionate individuals, who’s virtues we gladly extol, who’s experience of hardship only invigorated their determination to be wholly different from their one-time oppressors. The republic of Israel, for instance, has a very fair share of warriors for justice and advocates for peace: even in their old age they do not cease to be the tireless opposite of the brutes who wanted to gas them to death in the 1940-ies.

Yet that same republic is also known for dispossessing Palestinians, for its near-Apartheid attitude to Arab-Israelis, for its leaders’ reluctance to even acknowledge the right of Palestine to exist. Furthermore, the republic of Israel is one of Turkey’s strongest allies in the Turks’ opposition to official recognition of the Armenian genocide (1915-1918). How could a people that has known so many hardships, be so indifferent to other people’s hardship?

The answer is in the flag. The banner of the republic has been fashioned of the same two colours that once formed the “striped pyjamas” of the concentration camps. The flag reinforces the collective understanding that the republic of Israel was necessitated by the worst hardship in history, which its citizens had lived through. A safe haven for those who would otherwise be at the mercy of monsters armed with Zyklon-B. And nothing is allowed to infringe on that safe haven.

The hardship of Palestinians, many of whom have been stateless for three generations, is hardly hardship in the eyes of Israel. Nobody tried to gas the Palestinians, did they? And besides: the Palestinians tried to infringe on the safe haven several times. They brought this on themselves. As for the Armenian genocide: it can’t have been that bad. Was it even a genocide? It certainly wasn’t a Holocaust, because there only ever was one Holocaust, and that was a unique event that only the Jews suffered! (And 13 million others, yes, but mostly the 6 million Jews.)

I do not seek to deny the monstrous scale of the Holocaust. But I am at pains to understand why recognition of the Armenian genocide is perceived as infringing on the uniqueness of the suffering of the Jewish people. Yet that is exactly what the majority of the Israelis feel: that their people’s suffering has been so monstrous that nothing compares to it, that even a whole set of words has to be exclusively reserved to describe it. And hence neither compassion is shown, nor recognition given, to anyone who tries to compare their hardship to the Jewish suffering. No, not even to those who acknowledge that the Jewish suffering was greater. Even that is felt to infringe on the republic’s right to exist, if the Jewish suffering were “just” some horrendously bigger version of something that happened to other people at another time in another place.

The uniqueness of the suffering of the Jewish people is the subject of much historic agreement; the discussion concentrates on its comparability. But the notion of the uniqueness of “our group’s suffering” is found in all of humanity. It seems a very instinctive part of our psychology. And so is the resultant belief that the rest of the world should stop trying to compare their misfortune to ours.

In the past decade, voices from the communities of colour have demonstrated this time and again. In 2008/ 2009, just after Proposition 8 had passed: “Some of my best friends are gay, but the gays have got to stop comparing their fight for gay marriage with our Civil Rights Movement. Marriage equality is not a civil right.” (Except that the ban on mixed-race marriages seemed very much part of what the Civil Rights movement fought against. But appeals were made to deny gays and lesbians equal rights as a matter of Black Pride.) In 2013, when the New York senate debated marriage equality: “Who were shipped as slaves from Africa? The gays or the blacks?” (The answer, by the way, was masterful: “Some of them probably WERE gay.”)

Apart from the manifest bigotry of these voices (causing bigoted voices in the LGBT community to exhibit racism in return), what we glean from these examples is a feeling that individuals in the movement for racial equality would like it to have a monopoly on certain words, because the plight of the slaves and all their descendants was perceived to be incomparable. Few would deny the unique character of the suffering of people of colour in colonial America and the early republic. But the second-rate citizenship of their descendants can and must be compared. NOT equated: compared.

Now, before you think I only use examples of identity politics involving LGBT (my own minority) or People of Colour, let me mention that FOX News has been playing reactionary identity politics along a generational divide – and over a much less extreme past. When the fight for the $15,- minimum wage started, FOX aired multiple segments along the lines of: “Young people should work harder. When I was young...” (And never mind that adjusted for inflation, the entry level salaries back then were much higher than what burger flippers make today. Never mind that there was a better chance of being promoted in an economy that had not yet been financialised.)

The message was clear: somehow, the experience of the millennials today could not be compared to the hardship senior citizens had encountered in the days of their youth, and as such the millennials’ demand for a living wage did not warrant a repeat of the measures that had lifted the senior generations out of their childhood’s dearth. And the appeal to the senior voters was to deny the younger generation advancement “not until they have been through what we have been through”, i.e. indefinitely. That’s why reactionary identity politics is the ugliest variety thereof. It’s not about getting something you want, or even about keeping something you have. It’s denying something to others, just because you can. Enjoying the power of a blunt refusal.

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Postby Ayytaly » Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:58 pm

Rusozak wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:IMO, it’s about current circumstances, place and history. To exemplify: BLM highlighting an ongoing problem with racism against black people in the US. In Palestine, it’s the killing of Palestinians. For the Chinese, it might be the Ughyur. Or not. It’s China after all. In Canada, it’s First Nations’ people getting killed. It’s very dependent on geography. At least that’s what I think.


But it's a little different when it's multiple persecuted groups in the same society. In America, black people get more attention than Latinos and Asians. And they all get more attention than the native Americans which practically don't even have a voice at a national level.


When the Holocaust has more priority than the numerous persecutions of Native Americans in US history books and media, there's a huge problem. It's also a huge reason why I have become so indifferent to BLM protests, and sympathize more with Asians.
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Postby Thyrgga » Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:05 pm

If you have the mainstream media in your country speaking on your behalf, you aren't actually being persecuted.

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Postby Resilient Acceleration » Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:12 pm

Politics also contributes a great deal. The Palestinian issue is widespread in Muslim countries because the "enemy" is the "evil Zionist Jews", of whom large chunk of society hates due to centuries of rampant antisemitism. Israel in general is just a too perfect of a black sheep to rally against; it's far away (so whatever toxic populism we vomit out will have zero impact on the world) yet is incredibly effective within the population. I would argue that my government's strong support towards Palestine throughout our term in the UN HR council is exactly this; my government doesn't actually give a fuck about Palestine, they only want to pander to both the domestic and international Muslim population (and this action does serve our strategic interests, so funnily enough I'm supportive of that). Meanwhile, Yemen, the Kurds in Iraq, Iraq in general, and plenty of other regions of far worse carnage receive minimal attention.

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Postby Dowaesk » Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:19 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Dakini wrote:The Romani are currently still treated poorly and still get relatively little attention (many people also argue in favour of using a racial slur to refer to them). Just this year a Romani man was killed by Czech police who knelt on his neck.


The Romani are always mistreated back home. Displaced and abused and because many want them gone, I think it’s easy to sweep the persecution under the rug. People just look the other way.

The case of the Romani always confuses me. So mistreated yet, much ignored. I thought the world has moved past these levels of prejudice. But apparently not. People just dont bother talking about it.

Thyrgga wrote:If you have the mainstream media in your country speaking on your behalf, you aren't actually being persecuted.

What?
Last edited by Dowaesk on Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Alma Mater » Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:40 pm

Rusozak wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:IMO, it’s about current circumstances, place and history. To exemplify: BLM highlighting an ongoing problem with racism against black people in the US. In Palestine, it’s the killing of Palestinians. For the Chinese, it might be the Ughyur. Or not. It’s China after all. In Canada, it’s First Nations’ people getting killed. It’s very dependent on geography. At least that’s what I think.


But it's a little different when it's multiple persecuted groups in the same society. In America, black people get more attention than Latinos and Asians. And they all get more attention than the native Americans which practically don't even have a voice at a national level.


Which is where taking action comes in. BLM takes action - from outreach programs and sponsoring activities for their community to nationwide protests. Groups that state "all lives matter" by contrast do nothing whatsoever; except whine that not all groups are represented and some get more attention than others.
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Postby Gim » Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:49 pm

Thyrgga wrote:If you have the mainstream media in your country speaking on your behalf, you aren't actually being persecuted.


Depends on how much of the truth about the accused is being spoken against.
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Fauzjhia
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Postby Fauzjhia » Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:56 pm

Ayytaly wrote:
Rusozak wrote:
But it's a little different when it's multiple persecuted groups in the same society. In America, black people get more attention than Latinos and Asians. And they all get more attention than the native Americans which practically don't even have a voice at a national level.


When the Holocaust has more priority than the numerous persecutions of Native Americans in US history books and media, there's a huge problem. It's also a huge reason why I have become so indifferent to BLM protests, and sympathize more with Asians.


I have agree with your vision, that we do not give enough attention to the persecutions of native Americans/Canadians, compared to Black and Jews.
We must such a bad news of the bodies discovered near a Canadian (school), but we forgot these bodies did not appear by magic. its just that before this year, we paid next to no attention to the cultural genocide we committed against the natives nations...
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Postby Gim » Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:57 pm

Fauzjhia wrote:
Ayytaly wrote:
When the Holocaust has more priority than the numerous persecutions of Native Americans in US history books and media, there's a huge problem. It's also a huge reason why I have become so indifferent to BLM protests, and sympathize more with Asians.


I have agree with your vision, that we do not give enough attention to the persecutions of native Americans/Canadians, compared to Black and Jews.
We must such a bad news of the bodies discovered near a Canadian (school), but we forgot these bodies did not appear by magic. its just that before this year, we paid next to no attention to the cultural genocide we committed against the natives nations...


Hey, the winners write history, so what do you expect?
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Postby Thyrgga » Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:22 am

Dowaesk wrote:
Thyrgga wrote:If you have the mainstream media in your country speaking on your behalf, you aren't actually being persecuted.

What?


Sorry OP, that wasn't meant to be a jab at you, but perhaps a validation of your point that certain groups get more attention than others. Everyone and their mother in the US thinks that they're being persecuted and usually they blame the whites for all their problems. In the case of the Palestinians or the Uyghurs, the media organizations in their overlord countries don't go on about their hardships. They either brush them under the rug or try to justify them.

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Postby Kowani » Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:26 am

Thyrgga wrote:
Dowaesk wrote:
What?


Sorry OP, that wasn't meant to be a jab at you, but perhaps a validation of your point that certain groups get more attention than others. Everyone and their mother in the US thinks that they're being persecuted and usually they blame the whites for all their problems. In the case of the Palestinians or the Uyghurs, the media organizations in their overlord countries don't go on about their hardships. They either brush them under the rug or try to justify them.

consider that maybe there are cultural and legal differences that would create a media silence in those countries that does not exist in the us
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Postby Dakini » Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:27 am

Thyrgga wrote:
Dowaesk wrote:
What?


Sorry OP, that wasn't meant to be a jab at you, but perhaps a validation of your point that certain groups get more attention than others. Everyone and their mother in the US thinks that they're being persecuted and usually they blame the whites for all their problems. In the case of the Palestinians or the Uyghurs, the media organizations in their overlord countries don't go on about their hardships. They either brush them under the rug or try to justify them.

Or maybe domestic issues receive more attention than international news?

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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:39 am

Dakini wrote:
Thyrgga wrote:
Sorry OP, that wasn't meant to be a jab at you, but perhaps a validation of your point that certain groups get more attention than others. Everyone and their mother in the US thinks that they're being persecuted and usually they blame the whites for all their problems. In the case of the Palestinians or the Uyghurs, the media organizations in their overlord countries don't go on about their hardships. They either brush them under the rug or try to justify them.

Or maybe domestic issues receive more attention than international news?

okay in deference to thyrgga this doesn't really address their point
they were talking about media orgs within those countries, not anglophone media ignoring foreign problems (which tbf they both do or report horribly)
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Dakini
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Postby Dakini » Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:43 am

Kowani wrote:
Dakini wrote:Or maybe domestic issues receive more attention than international news?

okay in deference to thyrgga this doesn't really address their point
they were talking about media orgs within those countries, not anglophone media ignoring foreign problems (which tbf they both do or report horribly)

Oh, fair enough. But yeah, China isn't known for its transparent journalism and I don't think that a lot of Israeli press spends a lot of time speaking about their outright discrimination against Palestinians (otherwise they'd maybe stop doing it). Neither is something anyone else should strive to emulate though.
Last edited by Dakini on Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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