[PASSED] Access to Transgender Hormone Therapy

[ShrewLlamaLand]

Not safe how? Again, we are getting stuck on the poor wording of this legislation. What defines a “legitimate danger” to their health? This would be far simpler and less confusing and less likely to be abused; if age requirements were stipulated in the legislation.

“2. Requires member nations to allow their inhabitants to seek and obtain hormone therapy with their free and informed consent, and ensure that those inhabitants face as few barriers as possible when seeking hormone therapy,”

Another example of why this legislation should be amended prior to being passed; what are “as few barriers as possible”? It works against the previously mentioned 4.a. as 2. Suggests that a member nation can actually have barriers to the process, which they are allowed to arbitrarily determine.

So in my case, I will be using 2. to install age requirements before 4.a. Can be enacted in my nation.

It's not safe because... it isn't safe. No medical professional would ever prescribe sex hormones to a 2 year old.

Precocious puberty is a condition where puberty begins too early (in cis children) and can have serious medical consequences, which is why puberty blockers are often used as treatment. Giving exogenous sex hormones to a 2 year old would result in a very early induced precocious puberty... which by any reasonable definition is a "legitimate danger" to health.

If this was a real-life piece of legislation, then yes, from a medical standpoint this proposal doesn't legislate strictly enough... but this is a game and it's what happens when people from a non-medical background write proposals on medical subjects. In retrospect, the author could have better addressed this with a clause about "age-appropriate" treatment: specifying puberty blockers for younger children, progressing to hormonal treatment as they get older.

Realistically from a gameplay perspective it does the job fine, and does outlaw silly suggestions like giving 2 year olds sex hormones. It's written well enough for me to vote for, anyway.

[Marsadia]

It’s all rather irrelevant anyway as (2) in the legislation would allow me to put age restrictions (amongst others if I do choose).

I’m going to change my vote to ‘For’ based on this alone, but given the rigour many pieces of Legislation have to go through to get passed on this ‘game’, it is surprising that this is so light and flimsy, given the potential impact to people’s health by those willing to exploit some pretty glaring loopholes.

Regardless, my nation will be safe from those types of people.

[Kurogasa]

I really doubt a 2yo would be taking a free and informed decision about this topic.

I think you are missing the point by quite a wide margin.

It's...it's in the proposal.

[Sylh Alanor]

"I do not. You are employing a slippery slope argument over understood and helpful methods to assist trans people. Your arguments beyond the scope of hormone replacement therapy, or in young children puberty blockers (something you yourself said was not an issue), is simply attempting to scare up against votes. I will not let that pass unchallenged."

"You know, you have a point there. I'll give you that. However, there is a slight issue that I do have with puberty blockers. Primarily, the issue of fertility. People tend to be most fertile in their 20s, and spending most of that time being unsure what your gender is and thus losing their best chances of getting a family and kids. Some studies suggest that a healthy, functional family is good for your mental health. Sure they can adopt, and there isn't anything stopping them getting together later in life, but your best opportunity comes in your 20s. It may not be a big problem for your nation, as as far as I am aware you live in peaceful luxury, but for us it is. As previously mentioned, we are horribly outnumbered by our foes, and must minimize that disadvantage as best we can. Population growth is essential for our victory, as ours is a war that is not likely to end anytime soon."

"Minors cannot consent, meaning it falls to the parents to decide. However, just like anyone in a position of power, they can (and often do) enforce their opinions and desires on those under their power, specifically their children. The resolution doesn't mandate any sort of evidence for gender dysphoria, no clinical evaluation, nothing. What's to stop a mother who wanted a girl to simply transition her child from a boy to a girl? Nothing, if this resolution were to pass. Add to that, most who go through puberty 'grow out' of their gender dysphoria, making gender dysphoria in minors seem more like a phase than a condition."

"In a nutshell, the problems we have are that minors cannot give consent, the psychological problems that can arise from messing with hormones, and national security concerns."

OOC: I'm of the belief that the "slippery slope" fallacy isn't much of a fallacy any more. 20 years ago, the politicians said they weren't coming for our guns. Now, many of them ARE saying they're coming for our guns. The problem is that it sets precedent, and is a springboard for further legislation.

- Chief Delegate Rodgers

"I appreciate you refactoring your argument to address the subject matter of the proposal, Chief Delegate. I do not purport to be a doctor, nor a gender therapist, and therefore cannot comment on or hypothesise about the specifics of puberty blockers. I can, however, assure you that the idea of someone remaining on puberty blockers after the age of majority is a silly argument. Puberty blockers are prescribed to do just as their name suggests- block puberty in adolescents until a time when society deems someone old enough to be listened to and believed when they make comments about their gender identity. If they are being prescribed to a teenager who thinks they might be trans, and that trans teenager continues to feel as if they are trans for years without being prescribed hormone therapy, it follows that, upon turning 18 (or whatever the age of majority might be), they will simply put themselves on hormone therapy and transition.

"Your concern about fertility is also strange, considering that hormone replacement therapy inflicts chemical sterility in those who take it. Fertility is simply not a matter of concern when discussing trans individuals. And, should those trans individuals wish to form families, they are perfectly able to do so- marriage is still possible, no matter who they might love, and adoption seems to be perfectly legal as well. If your concern is familial health, then free access to hormone therapy would allow for greater happiness and self-expression, which would make a healthier home for all involved.

"Furthermore, we've heard these hypothetical horror stories before. Situations in which a parent forces transition upon their child are significantly less likely and, I imagine, unheard of outside of conspiratorial circles, than situations in which a teenager simply knows that they are trans. Certainly I grew up seeing the bogeyman story in which gay people would indoctrinate and turn children gay. Despite growing up in a conservative place, entirely sheltered and not exposed to any thought other than precisely what my parents wished, and not seeing someone of a different sexuality until I was well into adulthood, I was still very much a gay teenage girl. This conspiracy theory about parents forcing a transition upon their kids, I am forced to believe, is simply the next step in that same ideological framework."

OOC: I don't much care for American conspiracy theories about guns. Especially ones that are, simply put, without evidence.

[Reich Hungary]

“4. Forbids any entity from:

a. denying hormone therapy to any person, except where a legitimate danger to their health would arise as a result”

Don’t care what any sane adult wishes to do with their own body, however this clause does not stipulate an age of “any person” and would supposedly require a member nation to provide a child of any age, access to hormone therapy for Transgender purposes.

Against.

Lobbyist, you challenge, you lie to words, you make my words true.

[Marsadia]

Want another crack at it?

[New Visayan Islands]

Reich Hungary's most recent post in this thread was made in triplicate; I have removed the copies.

New Visayan Islands
Game Moderator

[Figu]

"I appreciate you refactoring your argument to address the subject matter of the proposal, Chief Delegate. I do not purport to be a doctor, nor a gender therapist, and therefore cannot comment on or hypothesise about the specifics of puberty blockers. I can, however, assure you that the idea of someone remaining on puberty blockers after the age of majority is a silly argument. Puberty blockers are prescribed to do just as their name suggests- block puberty in adolescents until a time when society deems someone old enough to be listened to and believed when they make comments about their gender identity. If they are being prescribed to a teenager who thinks they might be trans, and that trans teenager continues to feel as if they are trans for years without being prescribed hormone therapy, it follows that, upon turning 18 (or whatever the age of majority might be), they will simply put themselves on hormone therapy and transition.

"Ah, but you see, puberty changes you. We've all been through it (presumably), and I'm sure we are all aware how it changes you. It's hard to argue you've fully matured without going through puberty. The point is, puberty is an essential part of growing up, and avoiding it in the name of a belief that may well change after going through puberty may cause you to very much regret blocking such an essential part of growing up."

"Your concern about fertility is also strange, considering that hormone replacement therapy inflicts chemical sterility in those who take it. Fertility is simply not a matter of concern when discussing trans individuals. And, should those trans individuals wish to form families, they are perfectly able to do so- marriage is still possible, no matter who they might love, and adoption seems to be perfectly legal as well. If your concern is familial health, then free access to hormone therapy would allow for greater happiness and self-expression, which would make a healthier home for all involved."

"I suppose our problem here is this: Why should we spend valuable taxpayer dollars subsidizing something so blatantly counterproductive to the war effort. Taxpayer dollars that could be used to acquire additional hardware, pay additional soldiers, and acquire necessary supplies. This resolution would instead have us spend RFDs paying people to render themselves sterile, in a decades long war where population growth is essential. Perhaps an exclusion for wartime nations would be prudent, as spending valuable resources on something counterproductive to the war effort is practically shooting yourself in the foot."

"Furthermore, we've heard these hypothetical horror stories before. Situations in which a parent forces transition upon their child are significantly less likely and, I imagine, unheard of outside of conspiratorial circles, than situations in which a teenager simply knows that they are trans. Certainly I grew up seeing the bogeyman story in which gay people would indoctrinate and turn children gay. Despite growing up in a conservative place, entirely sheltered and not exposed to any thought other than precisely what my parents wished, and not seeing someone of a different sexuality until I was well into adulthood, I was still very much a gay teenage girl. This conspiracy theory about parents forcing a transition upon their kids, I am forced to believe, is simply the next step in that same ideological framework."

"I believe we may be talking past each other here. I am talking about children who blatantly cannot consent. Think around 1 to 10. Such children cannot consent. In fact, they may not even truly understand gender. People usually come to understand gender and sex during puberty. Needless to say, 10 year olds have not gone through puberty, or even come close to it. The only people who can make that sort of decision are the parents, and so any sort of 'trans children' below the age of 10 are the result of their parents' decision."

OOC: I don't much care for American conspiracy theories about guns. Especially ones that are, simply put, without evidence.

OOC: Then how about another example, Abortion. The campaign slogan before it was legalized was "safe, legal, and rare". Now, it's more like "unrestricted, free, and whenever you feel like it." Or put another way, the political campaigns regarding abortion sometimes call for babies to be aborted OUTSIDE the womb. They want it to be 'free', that is, spend taxpayer dollars on it despite the huge amount of debt we already have, including taxpayers who may have moral or religious objections to abortion. As well as that, people want it to be allowed regardless of circumstance. Whether it be because you forgot your condom and Plan B pill, or you just decide one day you don't want a baby anymore, they say it should be allowed.

- Chief Delegate Rodgers

[Sylh Alanor]

OOC: Then how about another example, Abortion. The campaign slogan before it was legalized was "safe, legal, and rare". Now, it's more like "unrestricted, free, and whenever you feel like it." Or put another way, the political campaigns regarding abortion sometimes call for babies to be aborted OUTSIDE the womb. They want it to be 'free', that is, spend taxpayer dollars on it despite the huge amount of debt we already have, including taxpayers who may have moral or religious objections to abortion. As well as that, people want it to be allowed regardless of circumstance. Whether it be because you forgot your condom and Plan B pill, or you just decide one day you don't want a baby anymore, they say it should be allowed.

- Chief Delegate Rodgers

Your point would be better made if it weren't made up conspiracy theories. Furthermore, we're approaching this from differing worldviews. I from a pacifist one focused on human rights and self determination, you from forced reproduction for 'the war effort' and using nonsense scenarios to try and cast doubt on a cut and dry issue. We're done here.

[Figu]

OOC: Then how about another example, Abortion. The campaign slogan before it was legalized was "safe, legal, and rare". Now, it's more like "unrestricted, free, and whenever you feel like it." Or put another way, the political campaigns regarding abortion sometimes call for babies to be aborted OUTSIDE the womb. They want it to be 'free', that is, spend taxpayer dollars on it despite the huge amount of debt we already have, including taxpayers who may have moral or religious objections to abortion. As well as that, people want it to be allowed regardless of circumstance. Whether it be because you forgot your condom and Plan B pill, or you just decide one day you don't want a baby anymore, they say it should be allowed.

- Chief Delegate Rodgers

Your point would be better made if it weren't made up conspiracy theories. Furthermore, we're approaching this from differing worldviews. I from a pacifist one focused on human rights and self determination, you from forced reproduction for 'the war effort' and using nonsense scenarios to try and cast doubt on a cut and dry issue. We're done here.

"Ah, I see. I was right earlier, wasn't I? You believe that the opponent isn't worth listening to, instead resorting to name calling and dismissing opposing viewpoints as "conspiracy theories". War is an inevitable part of the human experience. So long as incompatible beliefs exist, war will exist as well. Inevitably, it will come to blows. We in the Republic of Figu do our best to balance morality and practicality. Freedom and security. Nobody is "forced" to have children. They must simply suffer the consequences of unprotected sex. Personal responsibility is essential for a prosperous, free nation. We are a free, democratic nation, with reasonable measures to defend our sovereignty and ideals."

"Nonsense scenarios? Name one."

OOC: The abortion thing is based on historical fact. I can provide you sources, if you want.

- Chief Delegate Rodgers

[Intelbrazia]

Dear friends of WA, as a new member, Intelbrazia and its people would like to know if nations that are against the resolution are obligated to comply with the content of the resolution.

If so, we would like to know if this is set out in any previous resolution or if it is an informal convenience.

Currently our vote is against the resolution, but we would like to make it clear that within our borders we will be fulfilling all of the resolution's demands.

What we do not agree with is to force member nations to follow any resolution established by the WA that they have not agreed to.

[Tinhampton]

Dear friends of WA, as a new member, Intelbrazia and its people would like to know if nations that are against the resolution are obligated to comply with the content of the resolution.

Yes.

If so, we would like to know if this is set out in any previous resolution or if it is an informal convenience.

"The WA is the world's governing body. Membership is voluntary, but all member nations must abide by legislation it passes."

Currently our vote is against the resolution, but we would like to make it clear that within our borders we will be fulfilling all of the resolution's demands.

o7

What we do not agree with is to force member nations to follow any resolution established by the WA that they have not agreed to.

Resign, Repeal, or Relax

[Intelbrazia]

What we do not agree with is to force member nations to follow any resolution established by the WA that they have not agreed to.

Resign, Repeal, or Relax[/quote]

Understood!

We look forward to working with WA for a better future for all of us.

Thanks for the instructions.

[Tinhampton]

Access to Transgender Hormone Therapy was passed 11,643 votes to 1,935. (85.75% support)

[Sylh Alanor]

Congratulations, Honeydew ^-^

[Honeydewistania]

Congratulations, Honeydew ^-^

<3

thanks everyone who voted in favour

[The Order of Makai]

You fool! This resolution means nothing to us!
Nowhere in the resolution does it state that we are required to have the doctors, specialists, or even the actual drugs necessary for such Hormone Therapy to actually be carried out. Our holy Medicinae (which is state-run) will simply not purchase the supplies or train the specialists necessary for this; and our Manufactorums will simply not produce the drugs themselves; imports of foreign drugs are heavily regulated, with the majority being banned; so overall, you can't restrict access to something you don't have!
Oh but of course we are not "forbidding" anyone from in their wrong-mind deciding to seek out this "therapy", but they will have to leave the country for that to seek foreign treatments, and if they seek to return to the country after they poison themselves, well you cannot blame our customs officials for not believing that that person is who they say they are, after all, their stated sex does not match what is written on their passport and their new appearance is too divergent from their photo. The holy office of the Inquisition would at this point be interested in... speaking with this suspicious imposter who has taken on the guise of a Makaian citizen.

[Tsaivao]

The holy office of the Inquisition would at this point be interested in... speaking with this suspicious imposter who has taken on the guise of a Makaian citizen.

OOC: sounds pretty sus

Also by openly admitting that you're inconveniencing your citizens and preventing access to hormone therapy in your nation, you've kinda opened yourself up to the WACC to impose crippling sanctions on your nation. Have fun with that!

(Also there are other resolutions that do require to to have the necessary training and facilities, but it's 4AM and I'm too lazy to try and find them for you)

[Honeydewistania]

You fool! This resolution means nothing to us!
Nowhere in the resolution does it state that we are required to have the doctors, specialists, or even the actual drugs necessary for such Hormone Therapy to actually be carried out. Our holy Medicinae (which is state-run) will simply not purchase the supplies or train the specialists necessary for this; and our Manufactorums will simply not produce the drugs themselves; imports of foreign drugs are heavily regulated, with the majority being banned; so overall, you can't restrict access to something you don't have!
Oh but of course we are not "forbidding" anyone from in their wrong-mind deciding to seek out this "therapy", but they will have to leave the country for that to seek foreign treatments, and if they seek to return to the country after they poison themselves, well you cannot blame our customs officials for not believing that that person is who they say they are, after all, their stated sex does not match what is written on their passport and their new appearance is too divergent from their photo. The holy office of the Inquisition would at this point be interested in... speaking with this suspicious imposter who has taken on the guise of a Makaian citizen.

From 467:

Requires all member-states to have an affordable, easy-to-access way for its transgender population to access hormone therapy,

My one also requires member nations to Ensure as few barriers of possible in obtaining hormone therapy. So you can’t do that. Do better in your creative compliance!

[Countesia]

You fool! This resolution means nothing to us!
Nowhere in the resolution does it state that we are required to have the doctors, specialists, or even the actual drugs necessary for such Hormone Therapy to actually be carried out. Our holy Medicinae (which is state-run) will simply not purchase the supplies or train the specialists necessary for this; and our Manufactorums will simply not produce the drugs themselves; imports of foreign drugs are heavily regulated, with the majority being banned; so overall, you can't restrict access to something you don't have!
Oh but of course we are not "forbidding" anyone from in their wrong-mind deciding to seek out this "therapy", but they will have to leave the country for that to seek foreign treatments, and if they seek to return to the country after they poison themselves, well you cannot blame our customs officials for not believing that that person is who they say they are, after all, their stated sex does not match what is written on their passport and their new appearance is too divergent from their photo. The holy office of the Inquisition would at this point be interested in... speaking with this suspicious imposter who has taken on the guise of a Makaian citizen.

From 467:

Requires all member-states to have an affordable, easy-to-access way for its transgender population to access hormone therapy,

My one also requires member nations to Ensure as few barriers of possible in obtaining hormone therapy. So you can’t do that. Do better in your creative compliance!

He's right. You can't join the W.A and cherry pick what legislation your nation follows. That's not the point of the World Assembly. Your three options are to either comply, resign, or face international sanctions.

[Sylh Alanor]

From 467:

Requires all member-states to have an affordable, easy-to-access way for its transgender population to access hormone therapy,

My one also requires member nations to Ensure as few barriers of possible in obtaining hormone therapy. So you can’t do that. Do better in your creative compliance!

He's right. You can't join the W.A and cherry pick what legislation your nation follows. That's not the point of the World Assembly. Your three options are to either comply, resign, or face international sanctions.

She, it's literally in her signature.

[Kurogasa]

From 467:

Requires all member-states to have an affordable, easy-to-access way for its transgender population to access hormone therapy,

My one also requires member nations to Ensure as few barriers of possible in obtaining hormone therapy. So you can’t do that. Do better in your creative compliance!

He's right. You can't join the W.A and cherry pick what legislation your nation follows. That's not the point of the World Assembly. Your three options are to either comply, resign, or face international sanctions.

option 3 means you can, in fact cherry pick them as long as you are willing to pay the price.

[Tinfect]

option 3 means you can, in fact cherry pick them as long as you are willing to pay the price.

OOC:
The critical part is not bandying it about constantly, and actually portraying the consequences of your tenuous relationship with international law.
People tend to miss those parts.

[Great Algerstonia]

"Another stupid-ass bill passed by the liberal World Assembly. We'll just declare all fucking chemicals used to change gender to be a legitimate danger to health, we're not changing shit without getting any profit in return."

~Admiral-Ambassador Alec Ainsworth, very mad.

[Tinfect]

"Another stupid-ass bill passed by the liberal World Assembly. We'll just declare all fucking chemicals used to change gender to be a legitimate danger to health, we're not changing shit without getting any profit in return."

~Admiral-Ambassador Alec Ainsworth, very mad.

"And I take it you will thus be taking action to remove the hormone-producing organs from each of your citizens, then? Surely you cannot allow such dangerous chemicals to be produced without any observation or control within the bodies of the citizenry. Or perhaps you will wish to define 'safe' levels of them in particular genders, in which case, the majority of your citizenry will have to undergo procedures or medical suppression anyway. Your opposition is primitive and childish; the least you could do is basic research, Ambassador."