[KILLED WITH FIRE]Prison Reform Act

[Jedinsto]

“Hmm yes, the only solution to war is to oppress your people so they want to leave, seems like sound logic to me. Prisoners can be shackled 24 hours a day if they’re violent, nothing stops that. Beating them for misconduct or just for being in prison is extremely cruel and will only sow discontent and potential riots. Get a clue, ambassador.”

Your point and tone have both been noted. When you go to prison you are paying your debt to society and we determine how that is done in our nation and every other nation has the right to do the same. Please watch your hypocrisy.

"Excuse me, hypocrisy?"

OOC: Also, just to be clear, I let my WA ambassador character be a bit of an asshole sometimes, so just keep in mind I'm not trying to attack you personally or anything

[Jedinsto]

Bump. This has been moved to non-descript drafting stage. I intend to submit soon.

[Sylh Alanor]

I think keeping a transgender man with biological men or transgender women with biological women is not good and should be banned.

OOC: Christ.

Why?

Violence and shit

^after some thought and discussion on discord, I’ve decided to leave gender separation to nations cuz so they can handle issues with their species 2500 different genders and the human transgenders don’t get bullied.

"I would argue it is best for people be grouped by gender identity, especially given the allowance in World Assembly nations for trans people (note, not 'transgenders') to have access to hormone replacement therapy and other procedures they might require. If you are truly worried about violence, perhaps take note that a trans woman who has already transitioned is going to face significant issues in a prison full of cis men. Given your stance on this, I will remain against your proposal until I see a provision ensuring the rights of trans people to be grouped with other members of their gender identity."

OOC: The anti-trans arguments you've presented in this thread are the single grossest thing I've seen in the GA this year by an established author and I'm extremely disappointed. We should all hope to be better and to treat those who are put down by society with respect and inclusiveness, not derision and tired arguments.

[Jedinsto]

I think keeping a transgender man with biological men or transgender women with biological women is not good and should be banned.

OOC: Christ.

Violence and shit

^after some thought and discussion on discord, I’ve decided to leave gender separation to nations cuz so they can handle issues with their species 2500 different genders and the human transgenders don’t get bullied.

"I would argue it is best for people be grouped by gender identity, especially given the allowance in World Assembly nations for trans people (note, not 'transgenders') to have access to hormone replacement therapy and other procedures they might require. If you are truly worried about violence, perhaps take note that a trans woman who has already transitioned is going to face significant issues in a prison full of cis men. Given your stance on this, I will remain against your proposal until I see a provision ensuring the rights of trans people to be grouped with other members of their gender identity."

OOC: The anti-trans arguments you've presented in this thread are the single grossest thing I've seen in the GA this year by an established author and I'm extremely disappointed. We should all hope to be better and to treat those who are put down by society with respect and inclusiveness, not derision and tired arguments.

"The thought initially was that a transgender woman in a prison with biological women could lead to violence. I thought a transgender woman in a prison with biological men should have enough capability to defend themselves from violence, before I realized how flawed this thinking actually was. The conclusion I came to eventually is that regardless of the way transgender people are grouped in prisons, they will be safe enough with the other provisions that national governments will be capable enough of making intelligent grouping decisions. As such, the clause you are suggesting will not be implemented."

OOC: Fuck off with that, will ya? I am absolutely dumbfounded as to how "I think keeping a transgender man with biological men or transgender women with biological women is not good and should be banned," and "violence and shit" (in context, ofc) can be remotely construed as transphobia or "gross" as you like to say. I noticed my mistake and fixed it, so yeah, my goal is also to "treat those who are put down by society with respect and inclusiveness," which is actually the whole reason behind this draft. I made an honest mistake, and you can either accept that or keep thinking this was bigotry, "gross" or whatever the fuck you want to call it. Thank you for your time.

[Tinfect]

OOC: Fuck off with that, will ya? I am absolutely dumbfounded as to how "I think keeping a transgender man with biological men or transgender women with biological women is not good and should be banned," and "violence and shit" (in context, ofc) can be remotely construed as transphobia or "gross" as you like to say.

OOC:
Regardless of whether or not your opinion on the matter has changed, your hopefully prior opinion on the matter is plainly transphobic; it finds its basis in the automatic conception of trans people as being more likely to be predators than cis people.
Notably, in reality, trans people in opposite-gender prisons suffer violence, sexual or otherwise, at a dramatically increased rate to the rest of the prison population. Worth noting that 'sensible prison practice' to prevent violence, or whatever phrasing you used, is most certainly not the case in reality, and one should not assume that NS nations prisons are automatically better than RL prisons. The correct policy on the matter is to house transgender prisoners as is appropriate for their gender.

[Astrobolt]

Prisoners shall be allowed a minimum of one hour worth of in-person visitation per month.

"Even in say, a deadly pandemic? Perhaps it might be better to allow virtual visitations."

[Jedinsto]

your hopefully prior opinion on the matter is plainly transphobic; it finds its basis in the automatic conception of trans people as being more likely to be predators than cis people.

No, no it doesn't.

[Jedinsto]

Prisoners shall be allowed a minimum of one hour worth of in-person visitation per month.

"Even in say, a deadly pandemic? Perhaps it might be better to allow virtual visitations."

"This is true. I'm currently working on a new draft, and this will be included."

[Jedinsto]

Changed the visitation clause. I have removed the part regarding criminal negligence because of clause 3c of Fair Treatment of Prisoners, which I believe already satisfies the need. I removed a minor, unnecessary recommendation clause suggesting that nations "Improve the general quality of prisons."

[Tinfect]

No, no it doesn't.

OOC:
Doesn't it? And what exactly makes you so certain of that? Do you magically have more personal experience on the matter than a trans woman, or better information than someone for whom this information is a critical part of political activism and could indeed even apply to them?

The presumption is that 'biological men and women' must be somehow protected from transgender people, who are, by virtue of their 'biological sex', presumed to be dangerous. This is what we call here in the business, transphobic nonsense. You claim to have acknowledged the latter, but refusal to acknowledge the former does not instill confidence in your ability to draft effective prison reform.

[Jedinsto]

Stuff

I was gonna address this piece by piece and then recognized that that was a waste of my time. What I'm acknowledging is that I made a mistake in the draft. What I'm not acknowledging is that you're saying my reasoning for making that drafting choice was out of the assumption that trans people are more dangerous than cis people, because that's not the logic. A statement like that would be stupid, illogical, and incredibly transphobic. So no, I don't believe that trans people are more dangerous than cis people. Please stop saying that, because it's pissing me off and it's not true. Getting accused of transphobia isn't something I take lightly, and I really don't appreciate statements like that. Not responding to further accusations of transphobia for my own sake. Thank you.

[Sylh Alanor]

"The thought initially was that a transgender woman in a prison with biological women could lead to violence. I thought a transgender woman in a prison with biological men should have enough capability to defend themselves from violence, before I realized how flawed this thinking actually was. The conclusion I came to eventually is that regardless of the way transgender people are grouped in prisons, they will be safe enough with the other provisions that national governments will be capable enough of making intelligent grouping decisions. As such, the clause you are suggesting will not be implemented."

OOC: Fuck off with that, will ya? I am absolutely dumbfounded as to how "I think keeping a transgender man with biological men or transgender women with biological women is not good and should be banned," and "violence and shit" (in context, ofc) can be remotely construed as transphobia or "gross" as you like to say. I noticed my mistake and fixed it, so yeah, my goal is also to "treat those who are put down by society with respect and inclusiveness," which is actually the whole reason behind this draft. I made an honest mistake, and you can either accept that or keep thinking this was bigotry, "gross" or whatever the fuck you want to call it. Thank you for your time.

"That is simply not how GA resolutions work, Ambassador. To excuse away a major flaw, which has been pointed out by several people at this point, as something national governments will just figure out on their own calls into question why the rest of your provisions in this proposal can't be similarly dismissed. Indeed, you are writing this because you understand minimal standards are required, as there are national governments out there who will aim to provide less than that given the opportunity. The rights of your LGBT prisoners are no different. If there are no standards to provide protection to some of the most vulnerable portions of a prison population, then the rest of your proposal might as well not exist. I will be pushing for this to be defeated if it somehow makes it to vote."

OOC: I don't think responding so aggressively when you've been called on this several times is the best look. You may not have intended to put forward a transphobic argument, but you did. Doubling and then tripling down on this concerns me far more than the original mistake, because it appears you actually haven't learned from it at all. And then arguing it against a number of actual trans people in the thread (who I will leave the remainder of this to, since they're going to know more than I do) is, well, it's an interesting choice.

[Tinhampton]

Alexander Smith, Tinhamptonian Delegate-Ambassador to the World Assembly: Mister duBois, your original draft of this Act contained a requirement that prisoners be separated according to biological sex, not gender identity. Yes, I mean put into your original draft, not snuck in as an edit later on. Two hours after you first presented that draft, you boasted about its provisions for "gender segregation" - and only removed them after concerted pressure from Ambassador Hepperle of Honeydewistania, a couple of bears, and maybe a few other representatives. By no means can I consider something hard-coded into your original draft to be a simple "mistake," especially when you, Ambassador, have only started to describe it as such in the days before you intend to submit your shiny new version.

[Bananaistan]

OOC: Are we really hammering Jed for something that was removed after a few hours?

[Cappedore]

"What about places like Cappedore, where prisons are banned? My advisors and I fail to see where this is necessary for us at all, and other member states where prisons do not exist."

- Count Vilhjálmur VII

[Jedinsto]

Alexander Smith, Tinhamptonian Delegate-Ambassador to the World Assembly: Mister duBois, your original draft of this Act contained a requirement that prisoners be separated according to biological sex, not gender identity. Yes, I mean put into your original draft, not snuck in as an edit later on. Two hours after you first presented that draft, you boasted about its provisions for "gender segregation" - and only removed them after concerted pressure from Ambassador Hepperle of Honeydewistania, a couple of bears, and maybe a few other representatives. By no means can I consider something hard-coded into your original draft to be a simple "mistake," especially when you, Ambassador, have only started to describe it as such in the days before you intend to submit your shiny new version.

OOC: I guess me trying to explain my very OOC blunder in IC didn’t work out very well, so I’m gonna stop trying. And I wouldn’t say Honey pressured me, I’d say she made me realize my mistake.

[Jedinsto]

"What about places like Cappedore, where prisons are banned? My advisors and I fail to see where this is necessary for us at all, and other member states where prisons do not exist."

- Count Vilhjálmur VII

"If your nation has no prisoners, your nation has no obligation to give prisoners rights. Your nation would be exempt from the resolution, effectively."

[Cappedore]

"What about places like Cappedore, where prisons are banned? My advisors and I fail to see where this is necessary for us at all, and other member states where prisons do not exist."

- Count Vilhjálmur VII

"If your nation has no prisoners, your nation has no obligation to give prisoners rights. Your nation would be exempt from the resolution, effectively."

"It's not that we don't have any prisoners. It's that we have no prisons. Our 'prisoners' are usually just chucked into the freezing lakes to fend for themselves. What's the point in us and other like-minded nations voting for the reformation of prisons when it will have little to no effect on my country?"

[Bananaistan]

"If your nation has no prisoners, your nation has no obligation to give prisoners rights. Your nation would be exempt from the resolution, effectively."

"It's not that we don't have any prisoners. It's that we have no prisons. Our 'prisoners' are usually just chucked into the freezing lakes to fend for themselves. What's the point in us and other like-minded nations voting for the reformation of prisons when it will have little to no effect on my country?"

"I like the cut of this fella's jib.

"Regrettably though we've to point out extant international legislation in the area of rights of criminal scumbags and compliance mechanisms which the loony liberals have foisted on us which would mean that this might be problematic. Unless ofc such people accidentally fall out of boats while en route from a to b."

[Jedinsto]

"If your nation has no prisoners, your nation has no obligation to give prisoners rights. Your nation would be exempt from the resolution, effectively."

"It's not that we don't have any prisoners. It's that we have no prisons. Our 'prisoners' are usually just chucked into the freezing lakes to fend for themselves. What's the point in us and other like-minded nations voting for the reformation of prisons when it will have little to no effect on my country?"

"For the rights of prisoners outside of your nation. Help make a positive difference."

[Waldenes]

“Support. Although if you were to include a ban against for profit prisons, we would support the proposal even more.”

[Nationific]

OOC: May I suggest that y'all have been looking into the alleged 'transphobic statements' the wrong way? Jed's aggressive double-downing has complicated matters, but the thing is, the deleted clause and its subsequent discussion was never meant to imply that transgender people are violent towards cisgender people. In fact, in my opinion, the 'violence and shit' statement basically referred to the RL violence against transgender people by cisgender people. This has been blown way out of proportion, and I'm sorry to inform this thread, that Jedinsto has stepped down as WA Delegate. It is saddening to see things go this way, and my faith in this community has been severely shaken.

[Typica]

OOC: May I suggest that y'all have been looking into the alleged 'transphobic statements' the wrong way? Jed's aggressive double-downing has complicated matters, but the thing is, the deleted clause and its subsequent discussion was never meant to imply that transgender people are violent towards cisgender people. In fact, in my opinion, the 'violence and shit' statement basically referred to the RL violence against transgender people by cisgender people....

Nationific, you're just not getting it. Mandating the segregation of any minority because of violence or whatever only serves to ostracize that minority. The proposal was appropriately derided because it would punish victims and maybe not any perpetrator. Oppressors have used the grounds of "for your protection" enough times we should know better.

Please don't take this as any accusation of malice, we just need to do better.

[Nationific]

Nationific, you're just not getting it. Mandating the segregation of any minority because of violence or whatever only serves to ostracize that minority. The proposal was appropriately derided because it would punish victims and maybe not any perpetrator. Oppressors have used the grounds of "for your protection" enough times we should know better.

Please don't take this as any accusation of malice, we just need to do better.

Typica, the proposal was derided, and the clause was subsequently deleted. My point was reviving a very dangerous dead horse wasn't really necessary in this thread. Also, I never said I agreed with it when it was in the proposal. I do believe everyone, regardless of who they are, must be treated equally. Jedinsto understood that mistake, and, in my opinion, was unnecessarily harrassed over what was then essentially a non-issue.

[Jedinsto]

OOC: May I suggest that y'all have been looking into the alleged 'transphobic statements' the wrong way? Jed's aggressive double-downing has complicated matters, but the thing is, the deleted clause and its subsequent discussion was never meant to imply that transgender people are violent towards cisgender people. In fact, in my opinion, the 'violence and shit' statement basically referred to the RL violence against transgender people by cisgender people....

Nationific, you're just not getting it. Mandating the segregation of any minority because of violence or whatever only serves to ostracize that minority. The proposal was appropriately derided because it would punish victims and maybe not any perpetrator. Oppressors have used the grounds of "for your protection" enough times we should know better.

Please don't take this as any accusation of malice, we just need to do better.

I don’t recall mandating the segregation of trans people, all that clause did was make it so trans people were grouped with their biological sex. In some cases this might have been the right call, but in most it wasn’t which is why it had to go. Other than that I agree with your post 100%, I should have done better and I’m glad I at least corrected the mistake quickly.