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Coronational Chechyans and affiliates
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Posts: 69
Founded: Jul 11, 2011
Compulsory Consumerist State

User choice stats

Postby Coronational Chechyans and affiliates » Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:32 pm

I would like the option to see what percent of users picked a certain option on an issue after we select it. I think it could be really interesting

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Quebecshire
Envoy
 
Posts: 309
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Quebecshire » Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:42 pm

Interesting idea. I'm not sure (I'm not staff or anything, take my word with a grain of salt) but you might want to take that to the Technical forum.
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Jedinsto
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Posts: 898
Founded: Nov 12, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Jedinsto » Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:53 pm

I think this could be a nice improvement.
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Tocan Isle
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Posts: 49
Founded: Dec 31, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Tocan Isle » Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:55 pm

This would definitely be interesting. I would be in favor of this.
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Merconitonitopia
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Posts: 1676
Founded: Jul 29, 2013
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Merconitonitopia » Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:11 pm

That would be a nice addition. I believe the site does track issue choices. Alas, the results would be skewed by farms. I'm not sure how significant this would be, but I'm sure it wouldn't be trivial. I do wonder what percent of issue answering is done by farms.

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Nooooooooooooooo
Diplomat
 
Posts: 744
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Nooooooooooooooo » Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:14 pm

Merconitonitopia wrote:That would be a nice addition. I believe the site does track issue choices. Alas, the results would be skewed by farms. I'm not sure how significant this would be, but I'm sure it wouldn't be trivial. I do wonder what percent of issue answering is done by farms.


Maybe the mods could do a thing to count out farms?

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Saint Kanye
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Founded: Jan 28, 2015
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Saint Kanye » Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:16 pm

Dumbass here, what's a farm?
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Frisbeeteria
Senior Game Moderator
 
Posts: 25683
Founded: Dec 16, 2003
Anarchy

Postby Frisbeeteria » Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:16 pm

Nooooooooooooooo wrote:Maybe the mods could do a thing to count out farms?

We have no way to determine what your main nation is, much less which is your [farm / RP / invader] puppet. There's no required format.

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The Unified Missourtama States
Diplomat
 
Posts: 560
Founded: Jul 30, 2019
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby The Unified Missourtama States » Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:18 pm

Merconitonitopia wrote:I do wonder what percent of issue answering is done by farms.

Puppets are tracked by multiple people in the cards community; 9003's puppet reporting:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =733627866

There are more than 48000 puppets that are being used for card farming, so at the very least 1 of every 5 nations is a card farm puppet, there are other puppets from other things like r/d and just alts, but don't usually answer issues as often so less impactful per nation.

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Valentine Z
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10445
Founded: Nov 08, 2015
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Valentine Z » Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:20 pm

Saint Kanye wrote:Dumbass here, what's a farm?

Card farms are nations that often answer issues for the sake of it and not for the stats, in order to get card packs.

This often skews issue choices and percentages in the stats. One possible example is the huge trend of nations in ~50 Economic Freedom.
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Last edited by Valentine Z on Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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Saint Kanye
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Founded: Jan 28, 2015
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Saint Kanye » Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:31 pm

Thanks, Val.

This is why, while I think this suggestion is nice, I don't feel it will be implemented.
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Sanctaria
Issues Editor
 
Posts: 7666
Founded: Sep 12, 2008
New York Times Democracy

Postby Sanctaria » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:42 am

The Editors already have a tool for this but unfortunately since the introduction of cards, the tool's been made rather redundant.

So I can tell you there'd be absolutely zero benefit for the wider user population being able to see this information.
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Zeritae
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Founded: Jun 10, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Zeritae » Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:20 am

Perhaps it could show WA nations which answered the issue.
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Islands Of Ventro
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Posts: 396
Founded: Apr 20, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Islands Of Ventro » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:42 am

Zeritae wrote:Perhaps it could show WA nations which answered the issue.


This would work since it would also weed out all the puppets!
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Valentine Z
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Founded: Nov 08, 2015
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Valentine Z » Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:39 am

If it is just WA nations, this is going to get a bit tricky. It is good because you will be able to weed out a lot of nations that are card farms. At the same time, there are still a handful of nations out there that are not in WA, but are answering issues either on a regular basis, or they have been doing it way before cards are a thing.

First graph shows the distribution of nations that have 0 WA Endorsements, which is safe to assume that 99% of these are nations that are not in WA. Some of them may be WA nations with 0 Endo, but this is so far the best I can do.
Image
Image

And this is the distribution of issue-answering for nations that has at least 1 WA Endorsement.
Image
Image

In short, in a relativistic sense, both WA and non-WA category has a distribution of nations that answered issues, so if we are doing WA-only, that solves the card farm problem, while also taking out a handful of legitimate issue-answering nations that are not in WA.
Last edited by Valentine Z on Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Islands Of Ventro
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Posts: 396
Founded: Apr 20, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Islands Of Ventro » Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:26 am

Valentine Z wrote:If it is just WA nations, this is going to get a bit tricky. It is good because you will be able to weed out a lot of nations that are card farms. At the same time, there are still a handful of nations out there that are not in WA, but are answering issues either on a regular basis, or they have been doing it way before cards are a thing.

First graph shows the distribution of nations that have 0 WA Endorsements, which is safe to assume that 99% of these are nations that are not in WA. Some of them may be WA nations with 0 Endo, but this is so far the best I can do.

And this is the distribution of issue-answering for nations that has at least 1 WA Endorsement.

In short, in a relativistic sense, both WA and non-WA category has a distribution of nations that answered issues, so if we are doing WA-only, that solves the card farm problem, while also taking out a handful of legitimate issue-answering nations that are not in WA.



Another benefit of going the WA could be getting your issue answers to count toward whatever might happen with this
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Candensia
Issues Editor
 
Posts: 827
Founded: Apr 20, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Candensia » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:06 am

Speaking as a player, when I answer issues, I appreciate that they feel unique to my nation, even though I know they aren't. In my opinion, if issues go about revealing answer distributions following an option selection, then that detracts from their immersion. Suddenly my national decision isn't special and the issue itself doesn't feel personal.
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Dexterra
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 61
Founded: May 05, 2021
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Dexterra » Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:05 am

That would be cool. I think it would be even cooler if you could see the percentage of nation types/classifications per chosen answer.

If they extend this to the 'dismiss issue' option, I think this could also help the moderation team figure out which issues need editing

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Frisbeeteria
Senior Game Moderator
 
Posts: 25683
Founded: Dec 16, 2003
Anarchy

Postby Frisbeeteria » Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:11 am

Part of the premise of the issues game is about making difficult choices for your nation. This suggestion is more about agreeing with poll results than making the choices yourself. I strongly disagree with the premise.

Dexterra wrote: help the moderation team figure out which issues need editing

Just FYI: The issue editors are entirely responsible for adding and editing the issues. One or two mods are also Issue Editors, but they don't control the team.

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Coronational Chechyans and affiliates
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Posts: 69
Founded: Jul 11, 2011
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Coronational Chechyans and affiliates » Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:54 pm

Islands Of Ventro wrote:
Zeritae wrote:Perhaps it could show WA nations which answered the issue.


This would work since it would also weed out all the puppets!

This is even better then my idea. This way we know it would only be people primary nation

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Coronational Chechyans and affiliates
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Posts: 69
Founded: Jul 11, 2011
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Coronational Chechyans and affiliates » Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:56 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:Part of the premise of the issues game is about making difficult choices for your nation. This suggestion is more about agreeing with poll results than making the choices yourself. I strongly disagree with the premise.

Dexterra wrote: help the moderation team figure out which issues need editing

Just FYI: The issue editors are entirely responsible for adding and editing the issues. One or two mods are also Issue Editors, but they don't control the team.

Not sure if I made it clear but I was thinking the results would show up after you picked the decision. The same way forum polls work

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The Free Joy State
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 14944
Founded: Jan 05, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The Free Joy State » Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:17 am

From an editors' point of view, I strongly dislike this idea. If an issue has a skew towards one option then, due to the almost inevitable effect (often seen in polls) of more popular options drawing more votes, that skew will likely get worse.

Even if the information was not intended to be known until after you answered, I think there's a risk people will also be disincentivised from reading the issue, instead choosing to seek the most "popular" option (because, as with forum polls, chances are there would be some way to find out the information before you answer).

Sanctaria wrote:The Editors already have a tool for this but unfortunately since the introduction of cards, the tool's been made rather redundant.

So I can tell you there'd be absolutely zero benefit for the wider user population being able to see this information.

^ Also this.

It's doubtful the information would be very much use.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Merni
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Posts: 1571
Founded: May 03, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Merni » Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:47 am

The Free Joy State wrote:Even if the information was not intended to be known until after you answered, I think there's a risk people will also be disincentivised from reading the issue, instead choosing to seek the most "popular" option (because, as with forum polls, chances are there would be some way to find out the information before you answer).

Not that I support this proposal (my views are the same as Candensia's) but a "way to find out the information before you answer" already exists, even if it isn't official, namely Trotterdam's list of issue options (which contains both the number of data points recorded for each option and the stat effects). Someone who is willing to do the research can find information to make a choice anyway.
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The Free Joy State
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 14944
Founded: Jan 05, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The Free Joy State » Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:01 am

Merni wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:Even if the information was not intended to be known until after you answered, I think there's a risk people will also be disincentivised from reading the issue, instead choosing to seek the most "popular" option (because, as with forum polls, chances are there would be some way to find out the information before you answer).

Not that I support this proposal (my views are the same as Candensia's) but a "way to find out the information before you answer" already exists, even if it isn't official, namely Trotterdam's list of issue options (which contains both the number of data points recorded for each option and the stat effects). Someone who is willing to do the research can find information to make a choice anyway.

As you say, Trotterdam's list is not official.

There is a difference between a player collecting the information they are able to gather and site staff handing out all the information we have in full. It changes the dynamic -- from a game of unintended consequences and hard decisions -- if it's an official resource. My point stands.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Merni
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Posts: 1571
Founded: May 03, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Merni » Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:40 am

The Free Joy State wrote:
Merni wrote:Not that I support this proposal (my views are the same as Candensia's) but a "way to find out the information before you answer" already exists, even if it isn't official, namely Trotterdam's list of issue options (which contains both the number of data points recorded for each option and the stat effects). Someone who is willing to do the research can find information to make a choice anyway.

As you say, Trotterdam's list is not official.

There is a difference between a player collecting the information they are able to gather and site staff handing out all the information we have in full. It changes the dynamic -- from a game of unintended consequences and hard decisions -- if it's an official resource. My point stands.

The official resource wouldn't be available until the option is selected finally. All you would be able to see before that would be some unofficial (and partly out of date, inevitably) reproduction of the official resource.
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I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born. — Ronald Reagan
When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called 'the People’s Stick.' — Mikhail Bakunin (to Karl Marx)
You're supposed to be employing the arts of diplomacy, not the ruddy great thumping sledgehammers of diplomacy. — Ardchoille
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion [...] but rather by its superiority in applying organised violence. — Samuel P. Huntington (even he said that!)

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