NATION

PASSWORD

I am proud of German history

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

What would your reply be?

1. Yes I’m proud of my nation’s history. Thank you for your fine compliments; I’m glad you’re having a good time in Germany.
73
36%
2. I am proud of my nation’s history but I’m not proud of what happened in WWII.
83
41%
3. Truthfully, I’m ashamed of my nation’s history, we did terrible things in World War II.
28
14%
4. Other (please explain)
18
9%
 
Total votes : 202

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Infected Mushroom
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I am proud of German history

Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:17 pm

Please consider the following hypothetical:

You are a German, born and raised in Germany. Your age is what it is IRL. If you are a German IRL, then just answer it realistically.

A tourist comes to your and asks you while smiling in broken but understandable German,

“I like Germany. I like what I see here. Your country is very beautiful and very modern. Are you proud of your country’s history?”

Your answers:

1. Yes I’m proud of my nation’s history. Thank you for your fine compliments; I’m glad you’re having a good time in Germany.

2. I am proud of my nation’s history but I’m not proud of what happened in WWII.

3. Truthfully, I’m ashamed of my nation’s history, we did terrible things in World War II.

4. Other (please explain)


Would you as German citizen, when asked this question in a friendly and casual way, feel a need to bring up World War II? Or would you simply give a yes since the question doesn’t require you to bring up WWII?

After all, if you asked a British person “are you proud of being British” they’d likely say “yeah I guess” and not automatically feel obligated to default to “yes I’m proud of being British but I’m not proud of (long list of crimes against humanity*)”

It’s hard to imagine that many Canadians would go “Yes I’m proud of being Canadian but that doesn’t include the historical displacement of natives and the residential schools.”

How would you reply to the tourist?

Please explain.

I would address the question literally and say Yes. The entirety of German history is so great that the unfortunate events of WWII would not require a special mention without prompt. Saying that just makes me sound like I have too much national guilt and self-doubt when for the vast majority of German history, the German region has been a leader in culture, arts, and science. If he specifically asks, only then would I (if comfortable) address the specifics but there’s no reason or obligation to bring up WWII on my own.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:29 pm

Part of the problem of WW2 is that it was such that it is basically the benchmark of atrocity, and somewhat excuses the enormous cruelty of colonial Britain, among other examples you cite.. you can essentially excuse things with 'yeah, but we weren't Nazis..'

The other is that it makes Germans the default baddies, whereas throughout history that is the French.

We forgot the French are the baddies.

As to the specific question, I'd say the same for what I say for myself.. 'it is what it is.. I don't know how I can be proud of something I wasn't really responsible for..

..but check out my pepper plant..!'
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Page
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Postby Page » Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:36 pm

Most of the Gen X and Millenial Germans I know don't do the whole national pride thing but most Gen X and Millenial Americans don't either. If you asked a typical German "why don't you have a flag on your home/car?" they're not going to answer "because of the nazis" they're going to say "because Germany isn't playing a football game right now."

The Germans I know who have tepid attitudes toward nationalism aren't that way just because of German history but because they find nationalism in general to be distasteful. But my perspective is limited because I don't voluntarily associate with right-wingers, if I find out someone I know is an AfD supporter they go on my ghost list.

The Rammstein music video for Deutschland might be of interest to you, it's a portrayal of German history that captures the "epic but also oof" vibe of it all.
Last edited by Page on Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Avaerilon
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Postby Avaerilon » Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:41 pm

Personally, I find it hard to be "proud" of the achievements of an ethno-cultural state I am simply tied to for those reasons, and even then it's tricky. If I was German, I imagine- assuming my personality and values on the whole remain the same- I would answer in a similar way, and thus 4. Heck, your example of the UK is an example of those ties being peculiar, as the term "British" was effectively stolen from the Cymric ("Welsh", to use the exonym) (and Cornish, and also Bretons) by the Anglo-dominated authorities to provide a new identity for the kingdom of Great Britain. At any rate, I can express being impressed with or particularly fond of certain achievements made by individuals or group efforts by a country, but to be proud of the country as a whole- except in rare and limited cases- that is not for me. This doesn't change if I am German, French, Canadian, Zimbabwean, Chinese, or anyone else, as far as I am concerned, for there are too many variables to predict in that my identity may or may not be significantly altered by the country of birth et al.
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Jarvikan
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Postby Jarvikan » Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:41 pm

2nd one easily.While Germany is rich in great culture and history,the holocaust and other atrocities in both wars (Rape of Belgium,massacres of Polish citizens and Soviet soldiers,burning of Soviet villages) should not ever be forgotten.The holocaust is the genocide and is the idea of a genocide.I have been to both Auschwitz and Dachau.The scratch marks at Dachau are horiffic and make you sick.That is the exact reason I support Israel but let's not change the subject.Overall,the autrocities should not be forgotten and you should be proud of all but that


Also,us Brits wouldn't reply "yeah I guess".If we are english at least,we are called "racist" and "imperialist"
Jesus,lemme be proud my ancestors saved the world from the Nazis,started the industrial revolution or conquered 1/4 the world and ruled the waves without being called a "racist" or whatever
Last edited by Jarvikan on Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Socialist Republic of Astrakhan
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Postby The Socialist Republic of Astrakhan » Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:42 pm

German germs.
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:43 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:Please consider the following hypothetical:

You are a German, born and raised in Germany. Your age is what it is IRL. If you are a German IRL, then just answer it realistically.

A tourist comes to your and asks you while smiling in broken but understandable German,

“I like Germany. I like what I see here. Your country is very beautiful and very modern. Are you proud of your country’s history?”

Your answers:

1. Yes I’m proud of my nation’s history. Thank you for your fine compliments; I’m glad you’re having a good time in Germany.

2. I am proud of my nation’s history but I’m not proud of what happened in WWII.

3. Truthfully, I’m ashamed of my nation’s history, we did terrible things in World War II.

4. Other (please explain)


Would you as German citizen, when asked this question in a friendly and casual way, feel a need to bring up World War II? Or would you simply give a yes since the question doesn’t require you to bring up WWII?

After all, if you asked a British person “are you proud of being British” they’d likely say “yeah I guess” and not automatically feel obligated to default to “yes I’m proud of being British but I’m not proud of (long list of crimes against humanity*)”

It’s hard to imagine that many Canadians would go “Yes I’m proud of being Canadian but that doesn’t include the historical displacement of natives and the residential schools.”

How would you reply to the tourist?

Please explain.

I would address the question literally and say Yes. The entirety of German history is so great that the unfortunate events of WWII would not require a special mention without prompt. Saying that just makes me sound like I have too much national guilt and self-doubt when for the vast majority of German history, the German region has been a leader in culture, arts, and science. If he specifically asks, only then would I (if comfortable) address the specifics but there’s no reason or obligation to bring up WWII on my own.


I'd say "Ich bin stolz, ein Bürger der Bundesrepublik zu sein. Die deutsche Geschichte, das hab' ich nicht gemacht, deshalb kann ich weder darauf stolz sein noch dafür mich schämen."
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Drew Durrnil
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Postby Drew Durrnil » Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:51 pm

Infected Mushroom you should add a fourth option for Nazis. Anyways, I'd choose the second option because it just seems like the most sensible thing to do.
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Page
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Postby Page » Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:54 pm

Risottia wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:Please consider the following hypothetical:

You are a German, born and raised in Germany. Your age is what it is IRL. If you are a German IRL, then just answer it realistically.

A tourist comes to your and asks you while smiling in broken but understandable German,

“I like Germany. I like what I see here. Your country is very beautiful and very modern. Are you proud of your country’s history?”

Your answers:



Would you as German citizen, when asked this question in a friendly and casual way, feel a need to bring up World War II? Or would you simply give a yes since the question doesn’t require you to bring up WWII?

After all, if you asked a British person “are you proud of being British” they’d likely say “yeah I guess” and not automatically feel obligated to default to “yes I’m proud of being British but I’m not proud of (long list of crimes against humanity*)”

It’s hard to imagine that many Canadians would go “Yes I’m proud of being Canadian but that doesn’t include the historical displacement of natives and the residential schools.”

How would you reply to the tourist?

Please explain.

I would address the question literally and say Yes. The entirety of German history is so great that the unfortunate events of WWII would not require a special mention without prompt. Saying that just makes me sound like I have too much national guilt and self-doubt when for the vast majority of German history, the German region has been a leader in culture, arts, and science. If he specifically asks, only then would I (if comfortable) address the specifics but there’s no reason or obligation to bring up WWII on my own.


I'd say "Ich bin stolz, ein Bürger der Bundesrepublik zu sein. Die deutsche Geschichte, das hab' ich nicht gemacht, deshalb kann ich weder darauf stolz sein noch dafür mich schämen."


Yeah that's probably about what most people I know would say. Followed by "VORSICHT!" because the tourist is standing on the badly demarcated bicycle path.

Funny thing is the closest I can relate to IM's hypothetical is when I meet people from Kosovo, they all really like America and Americans. I've been thanked multiple times for recognizing Kosovo's independence, it's really weird.
I am an internationalist geolibertarian anarcho-futurist with syncretic egoist and Marxist tendencies, dismissive of the reform vs. revolution dichotomy in favor of a holistic utilitarian approach, and sympathetic towards illegalism within the confines of a left-wing non-aggression principle that acknowledges inalienable positive liberties.

I don't believe in kink-shaming unless your kink is submitting to the state.

Pro-vaccine, pro-mask, anti-lockdown. Wash your hands but also rise up when your country becomes a prison.

Protect yourself from Covid-19: Stop licking boots.

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Sladerstania
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Postby Sladerstania » Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:58 pm

"Well yes, I am very proud of German history. Although, like many others, we had bad moments. But overall, I think German history is one to be proud of and cherish, despite it's flaws."

Something along those lines.

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Oberoni
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Postby Oberoni » Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:01 am

They lost both of World Wars, but they have one of the biggest economies in the world.

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A m e n r i a
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Postby A m e n r i a » Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:06 am

Bombadil wrote:Part of the problem of WW2 is that it was such that it is basically the benchmark of atrocity, and somewhat excuses the enormous cruelty of colonial Britain, among other examples you cite.. you can essentially excuse things with 'yeah, but we weren't Nazis..'

The other is that it makes Germans the default baddies, whereas throughout history that is the French.

We forgot the French are the baddies.

As to the specific question, I'd say the same for what I say for myself.. 'it is what it is.. I don't know how I can be proud of something I wasn't really responsible for..

..but check out my pepper plant..!'


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The Islands of Versilia
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Postby The Islands of Versilia » Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:07 am

If my life up to this point has been at all resembling my real life, then proud as I am of my British heritage and nation, so too would I be proud to be a German. Germany has been the centre of European philosophy, science and innovation for centuries, and the achievements of Germans (inc. Yiddish/German Jews) is something to be admired. I’m already part German, though only genetically as my ethnic upbringing has been entirely English.

I don’t go out of my way to say I’m not proud of the atrocities of the British Empire, so neither would I go out of my way to mention the Second World War, though I assume I would be supportive of the average Wehrmacht and feel more pity than any anger - until someone accuses me of Naziism of course, which would be false.
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Page
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Postby Page » Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:08 am

I'll add that Germany doesn't completely eschew historical pride. The city of Aachen loves its association with Karl (Charlemagne), they literally gave hundreds of statues to local shops and there are too many streets named for him to keep track of.

Haven't been to Trier yet, was going to go a few weeks ago but had to cancel, but according to my wife they really milk the whole hometown of Karl Marx thing. Although I would reckon that's more about tourism revenue than pride.
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I don't believe in kink-shaming unless your kink is submitting to the state.

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Koletsia
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Postby Koletsia » Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:09 am

How dare you be proud of a white nation's history. This is now forbidden and Germany needs more third worlder brown people to repent for their past sins until every single white is completely wiped from the country and its culture and character is completely warped into something entirely unrecognisable. NO HUMAN IS ILLEGAL.

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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:09 am

To me history is something to be interested in, not proud of.
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Fatimida
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Postby Fatimida » Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:17 am

Oh boy
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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:19 am

Koletsia wrote:How dare you be proud of a white nation's history. This is now forbidden and Germany needs more third worlder brown people to repent for their past sins until every single white is completely wiped from the country and its culture and character is completely warped into something entirely unrecognisable. NO HUMAN IS ILLEGAL.

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Page
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Postby Page » Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:19 am

Koletsia wrote:How dare you be proud of a white nation's history. This is now forbidden and Germany needs more third worlder brown people to repent for their past sins until every single white is completely wiped from the country and its culture and character is completely warped into something entirely unrecognisable. NO HUMAN IS ILLEGAL.


You think we leftists brought all the refugees to destroy white people but really we just wanted a wider range of restaurants.
I am an internationalist geolibertarian anarcho-futurist with syncretic egoist and Marxist tendencies, dismissive of the reform vs. revolution dichotomy in favor of a holistic utilitarian approach, and sympathetic towards illegalism within the confines of a left-wing non-aggression principle that acknowledges inalienable positive liberties.

I don't believe in kink-shaming unless your kink is submitting to the state.

Pro-vaccine, pro-mask, anti-lockdown. Wash your hands but also rise up when your country becomes a prison.

Protect yourself from Covid-19: Stop licking boots.

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Sladerstania
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Ex-Nation

Postby Sladerstania » Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:26 am

Koletsia wrote:How dare you be proud of a white nation's history. This is now forbidden and Germany needs more third worlder brown people to repent for their past sins until every single white is completely wiped from the country and its culture and character is completely warped into something entirely unrecognisable. NO HUMAN IS ILLEGAL.

Sounds kind of racist...

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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:30 am

Page wrote:
Koletsia wrote:How dare you be proud of a white nation's history. This is now forbidden and Germany needs more third worlder brown people to repent for their past sins until every single white is completely wiped from the country and its culture and character is completely warped into something entirely unrecognisable. NO HUMAN IS ILLEGAL.


You think we leftists brought all the refugees to destroy white people but really we just wanted a wider range of restaurants.


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Fatimida
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Postby Fatimida » Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:32 am

Sounds kind of racist...

I have literally heard white nationalists say the exact same thing
Look on his forum posts, too; they're just as bad
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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:33 am

I think that for such an exchange there wouldn’t be a need to bring up WWII. I’d just reply by telling them I’m glad they’re enjoying their stay in Germany and that’s it.
I really don’t care.
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:34 am

Koletsia wrote:How dare you be proud of a white nation's history.

Last time I checked, Germans on the average are kinda pink. Not white.
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Koletsia
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Postby Koletsia » Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:35 am

Page wrote:
Koletsia wrote:How dare you be proud of a white nation's history. This is now forbidden and Germany needs more third worlder brown people to repent for their past sins until every single white is completely wiped from the country and its culture and character is completely warped into something entirely unrecognisable. NO HUMAN IS ILLEGAL.


You think we leftists brought all the refugees to destroy white people but really we just wanted a wider range of restaurants.


No, baby boomers voted for governments that allowed it.

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