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The All Inclusive Secession of Atlanta v Buckhead

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Shofercia
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The All Inclusive Secession of Atlanta v Buckhead

Postby Shofercia » Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:55 pm

Yes, this takes place in Atlanta, where else? For the non-Americans, here's a summary of Atlanta: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO9OlqnWiEo

So here's what happened: Atlanta has a wealthy neighborhood of Buckhead, which was originally merged with Atlanta to disenfranchise black people. That was fucked up. Over time the disenfranchisement was nullified and Buckhead remained a part of Atlanta. They shared an uneasy relationship, until the current mayor, Keisha Lance Bottoms, blew it up.

There was a justified shooting of a black guy by a white cop, but unlike Floyd, the black guy was on drugs, and, much more importantly, actually armed. No, he wasn't armed with the sidewalk, he was actually armed. So justly fearing for his life, the cop shot him. Without any investigation, Keisha Lance Bottoms fired the cop, and a bunch of other cops quite in protest. Atlanta's crime rate spiked, as did Buckhead's.

In the US, one of the main objectives of the city government is to provide security to its residents. Atlanta's mayor failed. So Buckhead, which provides quite a bit of revenue to the government in Atlanta, but gets very little in return, decided to secede so that said revenue could be redirected toward a more efficient police force that actually stops crime. The residents are leaning toward secession and the Georgia Legislature is allowing it.

Realizing that quite a bit of her revenue will go when Buckhead goes, mayor Kiesha Lance Bottoms decided to do what all responsible mayors do, scream "RACISM!" and how if Buckhead leaves now, Atlanta will be fucked and race relations in Atlanta will be irreparable. I'm not joking - if Buckhead leaves, the financial situation of Atlanta will become extremely precarious.

So what does NSG think?

I think that Altanta's voters failed to elect a mayor that would keep Buckhead safe, and Buckhead has a right to secede as a result.

Sauce: https://www.ajc.com/opinion/opinion-a-n ... 6XHYREP6I/

Atlanta’s Buckhead neighborhood is rich and mostly white, but the same jump in violent crime that many cities are seeing has alarmed its residents. Some of them think secession is the answer... Buckhead, with less than 20 percent of the city’s total population, pays 47 percent of its property taxes and contributes 38 percent of total city revenue...

Buckhead is far from a hotbed of conservatism: In 2020 it gave more than 60 percent of its presidential vote to Joe Biden... So what’s actually behind this mini-revolt of the Atlanta rich? It’s not primarily race. It’s crime. That may seem surprising. Buckhead is actually one of the least crime-plagued areas of Atlanta, as you might expect. But as is the case with traffic congestion, it isn’t the absolute incidence that worries people most, it’s the rate of increase. And serious crimes are starting to happen in Buckhead at an alarming rate...

Robberies citywide are up 2%, but in Buckhead are up 39% through last week.
Aggravated assaults are up 26% citywide, but up 52% in Buckhead
Larceny from automobiles are up 27% citywide but up 40% in Buckhead
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Postauthoritarian America
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Postby Postauthoritarian America » Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:26 pm

from the sauce:

The Buckhead secession movement is unlikely to get anywhere. It would require the approval of the Georgia Legislature, and even though Georgia is more sympathetic to these kinds of efforts than most other states, that would be a long shot. It would also require a majority vote from Buckhead residents, and given the opposition of the most influential segments of the local business community, that is not likely either. And even if Buckhead were to become an independent entity, as it once was, there is no obvious reason why violent crime would decline there.


/thread
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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:18 am

Postauthoritarian America wrote:from the sauce:

The Buckhead secession movement is unlikely to get anywhere. It would require the approval of the Georgia Legislature, and even though Georgia is more sympathetic to these kinds of efforts than most other states, that would be a long shot. It would also require a majority vote from Buckhead residents, and given the opposition of the most influential segments of the local business community, that is not likely either. And even if Buckhead were to become an independent entity, as it once was, there is no obvious reason why violent crime would decline there.


/thread


Might want to check the date on the sauce there chief: https://reporternewspapers.net/2021/04/ ... -own-city/

A legal process for Atlanta’s Buckhead neighborhood to separate into its own city has begun with the filing of state legislation under the name “Buckhead City.” The Buckhead Exploratory Committee (BEC), the private organization advocating for cityhood, said papers were filed by two North Fulton state legislators, neither of whom represent Buckhead: Rep. Todd Jones (R-Cumming) and Sen. Brandon Beach (R-Alpharetta). Jones filed the legislation on Sine Die, the last day of General Assembly session, on March 31, putting it onto the 2022 session agenda, the group said. And Beach filed legislation with the Georgia Secretary of State, which could trigger hearing as soon as this summer, the group said.


https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/07/us/atlan ... index.html

In Atlanta's well-to-do community of Buckhead, the debate over becoming an independent city has been brewing off and on for decades. Now, amid a spike in crime, calls to split from the capital have grown louder than ever. "We filed for divorce and our divorce is final," said Bill White, chairman and CEO of the Buckhead City Committee, which is spearheading the efforts for the formation of the city. "We're forming our own city, we're establishing our own police force and we will eradicate crime."

...State lawmakers introduced legislation earlier this year that could pave the way for a "Buckhead City" vote on the November 2022 ballot. And the Buckhead City Committee says it's raised $600,000 to support ongoing lobbying efforts and commission a feasibility study that is set to kick off in days.


As for the latter, it's honestly a cop out: even if Buckhead were to become an independent entity, as it once was, there is no obvious reason why violent crime would decline there

That's an ignorant opinion. When I cite a source or sauce, I cite it for data, not for the opinions of the authors, unless I actually give credibility to the authors' ability to opine, which I didn't do in the OP. Do you, (or anyone,) really want to argue that an efficient police force isn't going to make the city safer?
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Postby Herador » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:22 am

Shofercia wrote:Do you, (or anyone,) really want to argue that an efficient police force isn't going to make the city safer?

I suppose that would really depend on how desperate the people of Atlanta are and how affluent the people of Buckhead are. Granted, that seems like a Robocop tier worst-case scenario.
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Postby Shofercia » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:42 am

Herador wrote:
Shofercia wrote:Do you, (or anyone,) really want to argue that an efficient police force isn't going to make the city safer?

I suppose that would really depend on how desperate the people of Atlanta are and how affluent the people of Buckhead are. Granted, that seems like a Robocop tier worst-case scenario.


The people of Buckhead seem to be quite desperate for the cops to do their jobs, but Altanta's governance of the police force ensures that there won't be enough cops to do their jobs, hence the desperation of Buckhead's people.
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Herador
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Postby Herador » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:49 am

Shofercia wrote:
Herador wrote:I suppose that would really depend on how desperate the people of Atlanta are and how affluent the people of Buckhead are. Granted, that seems like a Robocop tier worst-case scenario.


The people of Buckhead seem to be quite desperate for the cops to do their jobs, but Altanta's governance of the police force ensures that there won't be enough cops to do their jobs, hence the desperation of Buckhead's people.

Not exactly what I meant. Buckhead can be independent all it wants and make it's own Police Department with blackjack and hookers, but it wouldn't really stop people from coming in to commit crimes. If Atlanta really goes tits up money-wise and things do get bad, it might keep increasing as people get desperate.

But then again, this seems like a scenario out of Robocop, so I'm wagering it isn't a big consideration. For what it's worth, I can see Buckhead's PoV here, I'm taking your sources at face value because it's late/early, but if it went down exactly as reported, that shits dumb.
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Postby Page » Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:24 am

Affluent white people have cried wolf about their safety many times before, not wanting bail reform cause God forbid those people in jail for months for unpaid parking tickets get out, they'll decapitate our family! Decriminalization of mushrooms? Haven't you heard about those people who took mushrooms and sacrificed babies to Satan?! Also, they were all NIMBY about things that would improve public health and reduce crime like homeless shelters and safe injection sites, so they don't have much credibility.

And they ought to keep in mind that secession doesn't let them build a border wall, the underclass of Atlanta can walk over the invisible line and deal drugs and jack cars just as easily as before, and if the school district is poorer than ever, there will be a whole lot more of those people coming real soon.
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Postby Shofercia » Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:10 am

Herador wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
The people of Buckhead seem to be quite desperate for the cops to do their jobs, but Altanta's governance of the police force ensures that there won't be enough cops to do their jobs, hence the desperation of Buckhead's people.

Not exactly what I meant. Buckhead can be independent all it wants and make it's own Police Department with blackjack and hookers, but it wouldn't really stop people from coming in to commit crimes. If Atlanta really goes tits up money-wise and things do get bad, it might keep increasing as people get desperate.

But then again, this seems like a scenario out of Robocop, so I'm wagering it isn't a big consideration. For what it's worth, I can see Buckhead's PoV here, I'm taking your sources at face value because it's late/early, but if it went down exactly as reported, that shits dumb.


That's very true, but let's consider the cities of Irvine and Santa Ana. Irvine's got a great police force, Santa Ana - not quite there yet. Irvine has a violent crime rate of 0.73 per 1,000; Santa Ana? 4.38. Santa Ana and Irvine share a border, so there's no issue going from point A to point B. The reason that gang violence and other violent crimes don't make it out to Irvine, is because the cops and attorneys won't hesitate to prosecute gangs to the fullest extent of the law, and will be very quick to catch them. So a good police force makes a huge difference.


Page wrote:Affluent white people have cried wolf about their safety many times before, not wanting bail reform cause God forbid those people in jail for months for unpaid parking tickets get out, they'll decapitate our family! Decriminalization of mushrooms? Haven't you heard about those people who took mushrooms and sacrificed babies to Satan?! Also, they were all NIMBY about things that would improve public health and reduce crime like homeless shelters and safe injection sites, so they don't have much credibility.

And they ought to keep in mind that secession doesn't let them build a border wall, the underclass of Atlanta can walk over the invisible line and deal drugs and jack cars just as easily as before, and if the school district is poorer than ever, there will be a whole lot more of those people coming real soon.


Most people don't want homeless shelters in their backyards, because some of the homeless are insane, and people don't want insane people roaming the streets. Granted, America should fix its healthcare system, which now the equivalent of a third World country's healthcare system for the poor, but NIMBYs shouldn't be punished for the government's lack of any intelligence when it comes to healthcare reform. And just as an FYI, I support a fuckton of Bernie's policies on healthcare reform.

Dealing drugs and jacking cars is slightly more complicated if you have an actual police force patrolling the streets. Atlanta's PD ain't really doing that with the right amount of frequency in Buckhead, or in the rest of Atlanta for that matter.
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Postby The Two Jerseys » Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:07 pm

100% support. Home rule is a good thing.
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Postby The Lone Alliance » Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:01 pm

Sounds like Buckhead is the rat fleeing the sinking ship.
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Postby San Lumen » Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:03 pm

Postauthoritarian America wrote:from the sauce:

The Buckhead secession movement is unlikely to get anywhere. It would require the approval of the Georgia Legislature, and even though Georgia is more sympathetic to these kinds of efforts than most other states, that would be a long shot. It would also require a majority vote from Buckhead residents, and given the opposition of the most influential segments of the local business community, that is not likely either. And even if Buckhead were to become an independent entity, as it once was, there is no obvious reason why violent crime would decline there.


/thread


Based on that it seems very unlikely to happen.

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Postby South Welford » Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:20 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Postauthoritarian America wrote:from the sauce:

The Buckhead secession movement is unlikely to get anywhere. It would require the approval of the Georgia Legislature, and even though Georgia is more sympathetic to these kinds of efforts than most other states, that would be a long shot. It would also require a majority vote from Buckhead residents, and given the opposition of the most influential segments of the local business community, that is not likely either. And even if Buckhead were to become an independent entity, as it once was, there is no obvious reason why violent crime would decline there.


/thread


Based on that it seems very unlikely to happen.
Shofercia wrote:
Postauthoritarian America wrote:from the sauce:

The Buckhead secession movement is unlikely to get anywhere. It would require the approval of the Georgia Legislature, and even though Georgia is more sympathetic to these kinds of efforts than most other states, that would be a long shot. It would also require a majority vote from Buckhead residents, and given the opposition of the most influential segments of the local business community, that is not likely either. And even if Buckhead were to become an independent entity, as it once was, there is no obvious reason why violent crime would decline there.


/thread


Might want to check the date on the sauce there chief: https://reporternewspapers.net/2021/04/ ... -own-city/

A legal process for Atlanta’s Buckhead neighborhood to separate into its own city has begun with the filing of state legislation under the name “Buckhead City.” The Buckhead Exploratory Committee (BEC), the private organization advocating for cityhood, said papers were filed by two North Fulton state legislators, neither of whom represent Buckhead: Rep. Todd Jones (R-Cumming) and Sen. Brandon Beach (R-Alpharetta). Jones filed the legislation on Sine Die, the last day of General Assembly session, on March 31, putting it onto the 2022 session agenda, the group said. And Beach filed legislation with the Georgia Secretary of State, which could trigger hearing as soon as this summer, the group said.


https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/07/us/atlan ... index.html

In Atlanta's well-to-do community of Buckhead, the debate over becoming an independent city has been brewing off and on for decades. Now, amid a spike in crime, calls to split from the capital have grown louder than ever. "We filed for divorce and our divorce is final," said Bill White, chairman and CEO of the Buckhead City Committee, which is spearheading the efforts for the formation of the city. "We're forming our own city, we're establishing our own police force and we will eradicate crime."

...State lawmakers introduced legislation earlier this year that could pave the way for a "Buckhead City" vote on the November 2022 ballot. And the Buckhead City Committee says it's raised $600,000 to support ongoing lobbying efforts and commission a feasibility study that is set to kick off in days.


As for the latter, it's honestly a cop out: even if Buckhead were to become an independent entity, as it once was, there is no obvious reason why violent crime would decline there

That's an ignorant opinion. When I cite a source or sauce, I cite it for data, not for the opinions of the authors, unless I actually give credibility to the authors' ability to opine, which I didn't do in the OP. Do you, (or anyone,) really want to argue that an efficient police force isn't going to make the city safer?


And so we come full circle. Depending on how Buckhead goes about their campaigning, they might make for an interesting state legislature spectacle down the road. If anything, they certainly seem ready to try to.

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Postby Shofercia » Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:41 pm

The Two Jerseys wrote:100% support. Home rule is a good thing.


It's also one of the easiest ways to hold politicians and lobbyists accountable.


The Lone Alliance wrote:Sounds like Buckhead is the rat fleeing the sinking ship.


Yep, certainly looks that way.


San Lumen wrote:
Postauthoritarian America wrote:from the sauce:

The Buckhead secession movement is unlikely to get anywhere. It would require the approval of the Georgia Legislature, and even though Georgia is more sympathetic to these kinds of efforts than most other states, that would be a long shot. It would also require a majority vote from Buckhead residents, and given the opposition of the most influential segments of the local business community, that is not likely either. And even if Buckhead were to become an independent entity, as it once was, there is no obvious reason why violent crime would decline there.


/thread


Based on that it seems very unlikely to happen.


I've already explained how that part of the source was outdated.


South Welford wrote:And so we come full circle. Depending on how Buckhead goes about their campaigning, they might make for an interesting state legislature spectacle down the road. If anything, they certainly seem ready to try to.


It also poses the ultimate question when it comes to secession: who votes? Is it just the seceding entity, in this case Buckhead, or is it the affected entity, in this case the rest of Atlanta? Because cities aren't sacrosanct, this could set quite the precedent, hence the thread.
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Postby Herador » Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:23 pm

Seems to me that if Atlanta at large gets a say, Buckhead stays and the whole exercise was pointless. If this is going to happen, it needs to be Buckhead's choice, not all of Atlanta.
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Postby Shofercia » Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:39 pm

Herador wrote:Seems to me that if Atlanta at large gets a say, Buckhead stays and the whole exercise was pointless. If this is going to happen, it needs to be Buckhead's choice, not all of Atlanta.


Agree, and I think that's the way it should be, and that's how it was with the Scottish Referendum. If Buckhead gets its secession, followed by an effective police force, it could hold serious ramification for LA County, which is too big to manage; that means that areas can secede and for their own counties, (albeit within a single state,) so Buckhead's case is very interesting to watch.
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Postby Thermodolia » Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:53 pm

So KLB won’t be running for mayor in the upcoming election and has pretty much given up on governing at this point. Basically she’s pissed off everyone in the city
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Postby Thermodolia » Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:56 pm

Shofercia wrote:
The Two Jerseys wrote:100% support. Home rule is a good thing.


It's also one of the easiest ways to hold politicians and lobbyists accountable.


The Lone Alliance wrote:Sounds like Buckhead is the rat fleeing the sinking ship.


Yep, certainly looks that way.


San Lumen wrote:
Based on that it seems very unlikely to happen.


I've already explained how that part of the source was outdated.


South Welford wrote:And so we come full circle. Depending on how Buckhead goes about their campaigning, they might make for an interesting state legislature spectacle down the road. If anything, they certainly seem ready to try to.


It also poses the ultimate question when it comes to secession: who votes? Is it just the seceding entity, in this case Buckhead, or is it the affected entity, in this case the rest of Atlanta? Because cities aren't sacrosanct, this could set quite the precedent, hence the thread.

Only those in the effected area will vote on the matter per georgia state law
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Herador
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Postby Herador » Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:58 pm

Shofercia wrote:
Herador wrote:Seems to me that if Atlanta at large gets a say, Buckhead stays and the whole exercise was pointless. If this is going to happen, it needs to be Buckhead's choice, not all of Atlanta.


Agree, and I think that's the way it should be, and that's how it was with the Scottish Referendum. If Buckhead gets its secession, followed by an effective police force, it could hold serious ramification for LA County, which is too big to manage; that means that areas can secede and for their own counties, (albeit within a single state,) so Buckhead's case is very interesting to watch.

Well, the follow up there is that if it's up to Buckhead, it seems like they go, which would be a massive problem for Atlanta. I guess the real question here is do those in decision making positions allow this to happen knowing that it will negatively affect a fairly large city to accommodate it's richest few, and I gotta admit, I don't have an answer for that one.

E: Therm seems to be in the know on this and I'm trapped at work in a post-holiday hell I can't escape from so I guess I'll ask now: is this a thing that can happen or is everyone playing it by ear and figuring it out as they go? I was under the impression it was the latter.
Last edited by Herador on Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:02 pm

Herador wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
Agree, and I think that's the way it should be, and that's how it was with the Scottish Referendum. If Buckhead gets its secession, followed by an effective police force, it could hold serious ramification for LA County, which is too big to manage; that means that areas can secede and for their own counties, (albeit within a single state,) so Buckhead's case is very interesting to watch.

Well, the follow up there is that if it's up to Buckhead, it seems like they go, which would be a massive problem for Atlanta. I guess the real question here is do those in decision making positions allow this to happen knowing that it will negatively affect a fairly large city to accommodate it's richest few, and I gotta admit, I don't have an answer for that one.

Well the mayor has effectively given up on governing so…

Even though the election isn’t until November she’s already given up being the mayor. People are rightly pissed with her.

And on the city vote only Buckhead would vote on the matter. The rest of Atlanta doesn’t get a say IIRC


It could definitely happen. Buckhead could definitely become a city. Though they have to have certain things which I’m sure they’ll be able to provide.
Last edited by Thermodolia on Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:06 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Herador wrote:Well, the follow up there is that if it's up to Buckhead, it seems like they go, which would be a massive problem for Atlanta. I guess the real question here is do those in decision making positions allow this to happen knowing that it will negatively affect a fairly large city to accommodate it's richest few, and I gotta admit, I don't have an answer for that one.

Well the mayor has effectively given up on governing so…

Even though the election isn’t until November she’s already given up being the mayor. People are rightly pissed with her.

And on the city vote only Buckhead would vote on the matter. The rest of Atlanta doesn’t get a say IIRC


It could definitely happen. Buckhead could definitely become a city. Though they have to have certain things which I’m sure they’ll be able to provide.


Setting a very interesting precedent. If this goes through, California might redefine certain boundaries. Let me throw out some numbers:

Average population of a US County: 109,182
Average population of a California County: 535,263 (excluding LA County)
LA County Population: 10,040,000 (it's gone to 9.8 mil lately, but that's still a huge number)

Average city population in California's under 80,000. Here are the biggest ones:

Los Angeles: 3,979,576
San Diego: 1,423,852
San Jose: 1,021,795

I think all others are below a mil. Would certainly make for an interesting mix, especially with certain neighborhoods really wanting to leave LA. "But Shof, CA's all Democrat they'd never do it!" Actually, we can, just do it via initiative or referendum.

Thank you Therm for providing the info, and Herador for the excellent questions. What do you think about this setting a precedent?
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Panslavicland
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Postby Panslavicland » Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:26 am

Its definitely the right move for this area. I think that this sort of thing will become more common, there are a number of wealthy, white majority areas currently lumped in with these declining, crime infested cities and they are not going to want to be dragged down with them. It's important that they separate to establish their own police forces and planning departments to keep crime down and the undesirable element out of the area while they still can, and to stop their tax money being wasted on an ungrateful city when it could be better spent on the residents who actually pay taxes.
Last edited by Panslavicland on Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby San Lumen » Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:34 am

Panslavicland wrote:Its definitely the right move for this area. I think that this sort of thing will become more common, there are a number of wealthy, white majority areas currently lumped in with these declining, crime infested cities and they are not going to want to be dragged down with them. It's important that they separate to establish their own police forces and planning departments to keep crime down and the undesirable element out of the area while they still can, and to stop their tax money being wasted on an ungrateful city when it could be better spent on the residents who actually pay taxes.

generalizing much?

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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:39 am

San Lumen wrote:
Panslavicland wrote:Its definitely the right move for this area. I think that this sort of thing will become more common, there are a number of wealthy, white majority areas currently lumped in with these declining, crime infested cities and they are not going to want to be dragged down with them. It's important that they separate to establish their own police forces and planning departments to keep crime down and the undesirable element out of the area while they still can, and to stop their tax money being wasted on an ungrateful city when it could be better spent on the residents who actually pay taxes.

generalizing much?


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The Reformed American Republic
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Postby The Reformed American Republic » Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:51 am

I think I’m in favor of this secession based on the current information provided.
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Herador
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Postby Herador » Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:00 pm

Shofercia wrote:. What do you think about this setting a precedent?

I guess I'm of two minds here, and both are pretty heavily based in the current situation. Emotional me feels for the city at large, crime might be high and the mayor might be a chore, but there are a lot of people who will suffer if Buckhead leaves and that sucks, so I'd prefer that they didn't/couldn't. Rational me, on the other hand, understands Buckhead should be able to self-determine their own course and what is best for them as a community, everyone should.

It's a hard position to be in, and I guess the only firm stance I can really take here is that I'm glad I'm not personally involved at the moment because I don't think I have a good answer I can fully stand behind.

E: I guess my other big worry is if Buckhead leaves and takes the revenue with it, Atlanta's PD is going to slide even further, whereas if they (and the money) stay, positive reform under new city leadership might be possible.
Last edited by Herador on Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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