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[PASSED] Repeal: International Salvage Laws

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Jedinsto
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[PASSED] Repeal: International Salvage Laws

Postby Jedinsto » Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:36 am

The World Assembly,

Recognizing that this resolution does not actually mandate anything, only suggest its measures be enacted, while also operating under the impression that it is mandating something,

Noting that this resolution even fails to provide justification for its attempted action, only saying that such justification exists,

Wishing to remove such incredibly weak and inadequate legislation from the pages of international law,

Believing that stronger, more adequate legislation on the topic of international waters is necessary,

Hereby repeals GA#50, "International Salvage Laws."

"The delegation from Separatist Peoples is currently drafting a replacement (of sorts) of this target."
Last edited by Ransium on Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:04 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Jedinsto
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Postby Jedinsto » Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:37 am

Reserved
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James DuBois
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Greater Cesnica
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:38 am

"Would it be fair to say that your primary reasoning here is that GAR #50 is bloat, Ambassador?"

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Jedinsto
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Postby Jedinsto » Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:39 am

"Indeed."
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Trellania
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Postby Trellania » Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:58 am

"Trellania supports this. Mostly because 'stricken vessel' can have multiple definitions that could reasonably apply, and not all nations may wish to have a military vessel salvaged just because it was removed from their record of active ships."

OOC: I spent some time googling the phrase "stricken vessel" and walked away with less understanding than I had before.

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Wayneactia
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Postby Wayneactia » Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:35 pm

"A repeal based upon a lack of dictionary definitions? How quaint. We'll take a hard pass on this one."

Wayne

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Jedinsto
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Postby Jedinsto » Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:26 pm

Wayneactia wrote:"A repeal based upon a lack of dictionary definitions? How quaint. We'll take a hard pass on this one."

Wayne

"Do you enjoy having resolutions with so incredibly much up for interpretation? If so, why? The law does only what the law says. Nothing more and nothing less."
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Wayneactia
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Postby Wayneactia » Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:35 pm

Jedinsto wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:"A repeal based upon a lack of dictionary definitions? How quaint. We'll take a hard pass on this one."

Wayne

"Do you enjoy having resolutions with so incredibly much up for interpretation? If so, why? The law does only what the law says. Nothing more and nothing less."

The law does only what the law says. Nothing more and nothing less.

First of all it doesn't work quite that way anymore. The existence of umpteen GenSec rulings will prove that. Also that has never been an IC thing.

"Actually I do. Resolutions should be a broad as possible for two reasons. First broad resoultions are terrific blockers, that block off massive areas of international law. Without them, we get hundreds of proposals that are nothing more than regulations and minutiae. The WA should set "guidelines" and have faith its members they will implement those guidelines in good faith as prescribed in GAR #2. Second, broad resolutions are quite open to interpretation and allow nations to enact laws at national levels that best fit in with their cultures and beliefs. Strict, narrow resolutions hamstring nations."

Wayne

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Honeydewistania
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Postby Honeydewistania » Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:13 pm

Your argument on it all being recommendations and then arguing that this isn’t defined and that isn’t defined doesn’t flow well logically. If they’re all recommendations and can be ignored, then member nations are forced to contact anyone or do anything, so all your other points fall flat.
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Jedinsto
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Postby Jedinsto » Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:20 pm

The point is that it's a bad resolution, not that the recommendations are necessarily harmful. I'm at least going to keep the current arguments for now, we'll see how it goes from here.
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Wayneactia
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Postby Wayneactia » Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:57 pm

Jedinsto wrote:The point is that it's a bad resolution, not that the recommendations are necessarily harmful. I'm at least going to keep the current arguments for now, we'll see how it goes from here.

It's not a bad resolution. Any resolution can be construed as "bad" if one wants to nitpick it enough which is what is happening here.

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Honeydewistania
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Postby Honeydewistania » Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:20 pm

Jedinsto wrote:The point is that it's a bad resolution, not that the recommendations are necessarily harmful. I'm at least going to keep the current arguments for now, we'll see how it goes from here.

If you don't intend to make the point that the recommendations are harmful, why did you include those subclauses then? If the recommendations don't cause harm, then I don't see why the resolution should be repealed based in that.
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Wayneactia
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Postby Wayneactia » Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:25 pm

Honeydewistania wrote:
Jedinsto wrote:The point is that it's a bad resolution, not that the recommendations are necessarily harmful. I'm at least going to keep the current arguments for now, we'll see how it goes from here.

If you don't intend to make the point that the recommendations are harmful, why did you include those subclauses then? If the recommendations don't cause harm, then I don't see why the resolution should be repealed based in that.

Isn't that the dictionary definition of "badge hunt"?

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Goobergunchia
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Postby Goobergunchia » Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:16 pm

We must concur with the ambassador from Honeydewistania. While the targeted resolution certainly fails to accomplish anything, it is not reasonable to then go on and say that member nations bear the burdens of questionably-worded recommendations. Member nations remain free to enact their own policies on the subject of international salvage and may, broadly speaking, accept the recommendations of the targeted resolution while making their own adjustments to properly define terms. In particular, we would request that the language at the end beginning "forces impractical mandates on vessels..." be stricken, as the targeted resolution does not force any nation, person, or vessel to do anything.

We would support a repeal of the targeted resolution (which we voted against) in principle, as there is no need to leave a non-binding, optional resolution on the books.

[Lord] Michael Evif
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Wayneactia
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Postby Wayneactia » Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:54 pm

Okay, let's talk about the elephant in the room here. Why after just north of thirteen years does this need to be repealed? It's not like there was some major crisis, and all of a sudden international salvage laws have become a major hot button topic for the WA. I don't recall there being some uber good resolution just being passed that makes this completely redundant. I don't even see a hint of a replacement being pondered. It is a thirteen year old, harmless resolution that sets guidelines for nations to follow, without having to use the entire character count introducing regulations. It is a good old fashioned resolution, from back in a time where resolutions, were more than not overarching blockers that followed the KISS principle. Most badge hunters just leave it alone. So why now? What is the major crisis requiring this to be repealed? A repeal based upon some wildly, over inflated claims I must add. What is the real reasoning here? Show me a replacement that blows this out of the water and I will support it. Until then you may as well hold up a massive neon "BADGE HUNT" sign.

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Jedinsto
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Postby Jedinsto » Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:04 am

Ah, badge hunting accusations. Gotta love it. I don't care about the badge, I've already gotten it once, and I'll get it again in less than 3 days. This is part of my mission to repeal the stuff I don't like.

I'll try to come up with some better arguments, but I don't appreciate the fact that the entire resolution doesn't do a single damn thing. That's why I'm repealing it.
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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:56 am

"This repeal has our tentative support. The arguments need some polishing, but the resolution itself is vague and offers little guidance for what is a tricky area of law."

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:47 am

Separatist Peoples wrote:"This repeal has our tentative support. The arguments need some polishing, but the resolution itself is vague and offers little guidance for what is a tricky area of law."

Concurred.

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Outer Sparta
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Postby Outer Sparta » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:20 am

Wayneactia wrote:Okay, let's talk about the elephant in the room here. Why after just north of thirteen years does this need to be repealed? It's not like there was some major crisis, and all of a sudden international salvage laws have become a major hot button topic for the WA. I don't recall there being some uber good resolution just being passed that makes this completely redundant. I don't even see a hint of a replacement being pondered. It is a thirteen year old, harmless resolution that sets guidelines for nations to follow, without having to use the entire character count introducing regulations. It is a good old fashioned resolution, from back in a time where resolutions, were more than not overarching blockers that followed the KISS principle. Most badge hunters just leave it alone. So why now? What is the major crisis requiring this to be repealed? A repeal based upon some wildly, over inflated claims I must add. What is the real reasoning here? Show me a replacement that blows this out of the water and I will support it. Until then you may as well hold up a massive neon "BADGE HUNT" sign.

Can you get a reasoning from Jedinsto first before you rant about "badge hunter bad" regarding their arguments for why it should be repealed?
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Jedinsto
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Postby Jedinsto » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:38 am

Outer Sparta wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:Okay, let's talk about the elephant in the room here. Why after just north of thirteen years does this need to be repealed? It's not like there was some major crisis, and all of a sudden international salvage laws have become a major hot button topic for the WA. I don't recall there being some uber good resolution just being passed that makes this completely redundant. I don't even see a hint of a replacement being pondered. It is a thirteen year old, harmless resolution that sets guidelines for nations to follow, without having to use the entire character count introducing regulations. It is a good old fashioned resolution, from back in a time where resolutions, were more than not overarching blockers that followed the KISS principle. Most badge hunters just leave it alone. So why now? What is the major crisis requiring this to be repealed? A repeal based upon some wildly, over inflated claims I must add. What is the real reasoning here? Show me a replacement that blows this out of the water and I will support it. Until then you may as well hold up a massive neon "BADGE HUNT" sign.

Can you get a reasoning from Jedinsto first before you rant about "badge hunter bad" regarding their arguments for why it should be repealed?

I do not believe that Wayne has ever been capable of not accusing people of badge hunting from what I've heard.
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James DuBois
Working on- Against Quorum Raiding and Prison Reform Act.
Delegate of Cyrannus Star System, CNS writer, WA ministry staffer in TNP.
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Jedinsto
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Postby Jedinsto » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:59 am

Sep is now taking care of the replacement, so I'll get back to redrafting this.
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James DuBois
Working on- Against Quorum Raiding and Prison Reform Act.
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Jedinsto
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Postby Jedinsto » Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:32 pm

Redraft complete.
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James DuBois
Working on- Against Quorum Raiding and Prison Reform Act.
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Wayneactia
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Postby Wayneactia » Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:33 pm

Outer Sparta wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:Okay, let's talk about the elephant in the room here. Why after just north of thirteen years does this need to be repealed? It's not like there was some major crisis, and all of a sudden international salvage laws have become a major hot button topic for the WA. I don't recall there being some uber good resolution just being passed that makes this completely redundant. I don't even see a hint of a replacement being pondered. It is a thirteen year old, harmless resolution that sets guidelines for nations to follow, without having to use the entire character count introducing regulations. It is a good old fashioned resolution, from back in a time where resolutions, were more than not overarching blockers that followed the KISS principle. Most badge hunters just leave it alone. So why now? What is the major crisis requiring this to be repealed? A repeal based upon some wildly, over inflated claims I must add. What is the real reasoning here? Show me a replacement that blows this out of the water and I will support it. Until then you may as well hold up a massive neon "BADGE HUNT" sign.

Can you get a reasoning from Jedinsto first before you rant about "badge hunter bad" regarding their arguments for why it should be repealed?

I did get a reason from Jedinsto.
Jedinsto wrote:The point is that it's a bad resolution, not that the recommendations are necessarily harmful. I'm at least going to keep the current arguments for now, we'll see how it goes from here.

That was the reason. It is a "bad resolution". All of a sudden after thirteen years it is just a "bad resolution". A resolution no one has even given a second look for thirteen years. So no, this is not some rant about badge hunting. If Jed could provide one single reason as to how the resolution is harmful in any way, I would support in heartbeat. I am always up for a good repeal. This is not a good repeal.

Jedinsto wrote:I do not believe that Wayne has ever been capable of not accusing people of badge hunting from what I've heard.

Then show me a solid reason to repeal this other than "Recognizing that this resolution does not actually mandate anything, only suggest its measures be enacted, while also operating under the impression that it is mandating something,". That is whole crux of your argument. So yes, this is a badge hunt and nothing more. You could have 57 badges already and it wouldn't make a single difference. This is still a badge hunt. So instead of accusing me of bad faith, explain to me what the emergency is in repealing this.

Jedinsto wrote:Redraft complete.

So instead of leaving the original weak arguments in the draft, you completely rewrite it, and not leave the original argument there?

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Jedinsto
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Postby Jedinsto » Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:21 pm

The "definitions bad" argument is gone, as I concede they were pointless.
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James DuBois
Working on- Against Quorum Raiding and Prison Reform Act.
Delegate of Cyrannus Star System, CNS writer, WA ministry staffer in TNP.
Authorships- GA#555, GA#558 and GA#563

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