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Expanding the UN Security Council permanent membership

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All are Equal
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Expanding the UN Security Council permanent membership

Postby All are Equal » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:40 pm

I think it's time to expand the number of permanent seats on the UNSC. Countries I'd see as viable candidates:

Germany
India
Japan
Canada
Brazil
Australia

What's everyone's opinion on this?

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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:42 pm

There shouldn't be permanent membership. It's made the UN an anti democratic institution.
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South Americanastan
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Postby South Americanastan » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:43 pm

All are Equal wrote:I think it's time to expand the number of permanent seats on the UNSC. Countries I'd see as viable candidates:

Germany
India
Japan
Canada
Brazil
Australia

What's everyone's opinion on this?

I don't think it should be expanded. The UNSC permanent membership was chosen specifically to even out the two cold war blocs, and world politics are still drawn along those same old lines. Adding any new members would tip the balance. Not to mention the fact that none of these countries are world powers, which is what permanent membership is designed for.
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Rusozak
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Postby Rusozak » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:44 pm

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:There shouldn't be permanent membership. It's made the UN an anti democratic institution.


Made? It's been that way since day one.
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Punished UMN
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:40 pm

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:There shouldn't be permanent membership. It's made the UN an anti democratic institution.

The UN is not meant to be a democratic institution. The purpose of the permanent membership is explicitly to protect the interests of the permanent members against those of the multitude of nations. I agree though that some nations should be added and others subtracted from the council. India should take Britain's place and the Islamic world should also have at least one permanent member.
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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:40 pm

South Americanastan wrote:
All are Equal wrote:I think it's time to expand the number of permanent seats on the UNSC. Countries I'd see as viable candidates:

Germany
India
Japan
Canada
Brazil
Australia

What's everyone's opinion on this?

I don't think it should be expanded. The UNSC permanent membership was chosen specifically to even out the two cold war blocs, and world politics are still drawn along those same old lines. Adding any new members would tip the balance. Not to mention the fact that none of these countries are world powers, which is what permanent membership is designed for.

No it wasn't, the Security Council was chosen specifically to give the victors of the Second World War power to regulate international affairs. The Cold War hadn't yet begun when the Security Council was created.
Last edited by Punished UMN on Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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South Reinkalistan
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Postby South Reinkalistan » Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:45 pm

Let's not expand the SC, let's dismantle it.
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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:46 pm

South Reinkalistan wrote:Let's not expand the SC, let's dismantle it.

The Security Council is pretty necessary to protect the interests of the most powerful countries from having international law used to bludgeon them based on simple votes. Without them, there would be a much greater incentive for aggressive war on the part of the Permanent Members.
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South Reinkalistan
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Postby South Reinkalistan » Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:52 pm

Punished UMN wrote:
South Reinkalistan wrote:Let's not expand the SC, let's dismantle it.

The Security Council is pretty necessary to protect the interests of the most powerful countries from having international law used to bludgeon them based on simple votes. Without them, there would be a much greater incentive for aggressive war on the part of the Permanent Members.

It affords the UN a hegemonic structure which in turn cements the present world order. Obviously like all things it is just a shadow, it's a reflection of real, more basic power which in turn emerges from the ability to apply organised violence -- I digress. The point is that the ability of the present world powers to use the UN as a geopolitical battle-ground is affirming the present liberal dichotomies upon which our modern system relies. Considering the unreasonable excess and gross atrocity that results from this system, destabilising it is a good thing and thus the UNSC needs to go.
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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:56 pm

South Reinkalistan wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:The Security Council is pretty necessary to protect the interests of the most powerful countries from having international law used to bludgeon them based on simple votes. Without them, there would be a much greater incentive for aggressive war on the part of the Permanent Members.

It affords the UN a hegemonic structure which in turn cements the present world order. Obviously like all things it is just a shadow, it's a reflection of real, more basic power which in turn emerges from the ability to apply organised violence -- I digress. The point is that the ability of the present world powers to use the UN as a geopolitical battle-ground is affirming the present liberal dichotomies upon which our modern system relies. Considering the unreasonable excess and gross atrocity that results from this system, destabilising it is a good thing and thus the UNSC needs to go.

If the institutional structure of the system did not protect their interests, they would just go back to the use of force to do so. Not being able to rely on international law to guarantee your interests and only having the law of the jungle is what led to the world wars. If you were to abolish the Security Council and the permanent memberships, the Permanent members would just disregard international law entirely. The permanent memberships just enshrine in law what is already known: that there are a certain handful of countries which are so much more powerful than the others, economically and militarily, that they dictate the rules by which the system operates. I don't think returning to the pre-War system of international relations is quite what people have in mind when they talk about dismantling the Security Council, but that's what they'd get.
Last edited by Punished UMN on Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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South Reinkalistan
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Postby South Reinkalistan » Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:00 pm

Punished UMN wrote:
South Reinkalistan wrote:
It affords the UN a hegemonic structure which in turn cements the present world order. Obviously like all things it is just a shadow, it's a reflection of real, more basic power which in turn emerges from the ability to apply organised violence -- I digress. The point is that the ability of the present world powers to use the UN as a geopolitical battle-ground is affirming the present liberal dichotomies upon which our modern system relies. Considering the unreasonable excess and gross atrocity that results from this system, destabilising it is a good thing and thus the UNSC needs to go.

If the institutional structure of the system did not protect their interests, they would just go back to the use of force to do so. Not being able to rely on international law to guarantee your interests and only having the law of the jungle is what led to the world wars. If you were to abolish the Security Council and the permanent memberships, the Permanent members would just disregard international law entirely. The permanent memberships just enshrine in law what is already known: that there are a certain handful of countries which are so much more powerful than the others, economically and militarily, that they dictate the rules by which the system operates. I don't think returning to the pre-War system of international relations is quite what people have in mind when they talk about dismantling the Security Council, but that's what they'd get.

Oh of course. I'm not denying that, and I acknowledged it in what I wrote. I'm really agreeing with you in your analysis, just objecting to your conclusion: in my eyes, the pre-war system of international relations was so much more multipolar, and frankly a return to that would be great.
Last edited by South Reinkalistan on Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
THE PEOPLE ETERNAL
| Never-ending purges, esoteric Leninism, and a cultural revolution that never stops. |
| We stand, ever-free, in the face of the Old World. |


LAST GASP OF THE OLD WORLD JOIN THE TNPL RESIST WESTERN LIBERALISM BUY OUR GUNS
I'm sorry. | aaaa I can't stop listening ;-; | nvm i support the cprf now
Now with chapters: (1), (2), (3)
This nation is a story. It focuses on Reinkalistan, but reaches far beyond its borders.
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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:03 pm

South Reinkalistan wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:If the institutional structure of the system did not protect their interests, they would just go back to the use of force to do so. Not being able to rely on international law to guarantee your interests and only having the law of the jungle is what led to the world wars. If you were to abolish the Security Council and the permanent memberships, the Permanent members would just disregard international law entirely. The permanent memberships just enshrine in law what is already known: that there are a certain handful of countries which are so much more powerful than the others, economically and militarily, that they dictate the rules by which the system operates. I don't think returning to the pre-War system of international relations is quite what people have in mind when they talk about dismantling the Security Council, but that's what they'd get.

Oh of course. I'm not denying that, and I acknowledged it in what I wrote. I'm really agreeing with you in your analysis, just objecting to your conclusion: in my eyes, the pre-war system of international relations was so much more multipolar, and frankly a return to that would be great.

It was that system that left over one-hundred million dead in the first half of the twentieth century and many countries shattered socially and economically. There are still parts of the world that haven't recovered from the twentieth century crisis.
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Polish Prussian Commonwealth
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Postby Polish Prussian Commonwealth » Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:05 pm

abolish the UN.
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South Reinkalistan
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby South Reinkalistan » Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:06 pm

Punished UMN wrote:
South Reinkalistan wrote:
Oh of course. I'm not denying that, and I acknowledged it in what I wrote. I'm really agreeing with you in your analysis, just objecting to your conclusion: in my eyes, the pre-war system of international relations was so much more multipolar, and frankly a return to that would be great.

It was that system that left over one-hundred million dead in the first half of the twentieth century and many countries shattered socially and economically. There are still parts of the world that haven't recovered from the twentieth century crisis.

What was it they say about omelettes and eggs?
Last edited by South Reinkalistan on Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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| We stand, ever-free, in the face of the Old World. |


LAST GASP OF THE OLD WORLD JOIN THE TNPL RESIST WESTERN LIBERALISM BUY OUR GUNS
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:33 pm

Why?
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Kubra
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Postby Kubra » Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:48 pm

Frankly, the number of permanent seats should be reduced.
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Resilient Acceleration
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Postby Resilient Acceleration » Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:04 pm

The original purpose of the UN is pretty simple. It's not a global union that represents humanity. It's a forum for nuclear-powered world powers to peacefully resolve things based on their interests, so there won't be another random Sarajevo that leads to World War III and the end of civilization.

Of course, over time the global union things do develop (which do benefit everyone), but I don't think the main purpose has shifted that significantly. For this reason, I might actually support the inclusion of India, another nuclear power, in the council, especially since South Asia will be one of the most vulnerable spots that can trigger a gigantic war as climate change and water crises took its toll. The "might" is because Pakistan, another nuclear power, obviously won't be very happy. Then again, India don't (or at least not yet) have worldwide interest in far-flung countries that might collide with other major powers, so their inclusion isn't really that pressing, at least for now.
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Rusozak
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Postby Rusozak » Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:10 pm

Resilient Acceleration wrote:The original purpose of the UN is pretty simple. It's not a global union that represents humanity. It's a forum for nuclear-powered world powers to peacefully resolve things based on their interests, so there won't be another random Sarajevo that leads to World War III and the end of civilization.

Of course, over time the global union things do develop (which do benefit everyone), but I don't think the main purpose has shifted that significantly. For this reason, I might actually support the inclusion of India, another nuclear power, in the council, especially since South Asia will be one of the most vulnerable spots that can trigger a gigantic war as climate change and water crises took its toll. The "might" is because Pakistan, another nuclear power, obviously won't be very happy. Then again, India don't (or at least not yet) have worldwide interest in far-flung countries that might collide with other major powers, so their inclusion isn't really that pressing, at least for now.


It seems kind of redundant then, since the MAD doctrine already deters major conflicts between major powers, all of which have nuclear weapons. Of course that's not ideal, but the UN doesn't really do anything to prevent another world war the superpowers don't already do themselves, and it's done a stellar job at resolving regional conflicts.
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Luziyca
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Postby Luziyca » Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:03 pm

All are Equal wrote:I think it's time to expand the number of permanent seats on the UNSC. Countries I'd see as viable candidates:

Germany
India
Japan
Canada
Brazil
Australia

What's everyone's opinion on this?

Why would you suggest these countries? Canada and Australia are basically American lackeys that are too small to really exert any influence, Japan's a regional power at best, and Germany is also a regional power (though we should consolidate the EU and give them France's spot in the SC). The only two from this list that could make sense are Brazil and India given their populations and their spheres of influence, but even then, I'm not sure if I support your suggestion.

If I could restructure the United Nations Security Council, and I had to keep permanent members, I'd certainly remove the United Kingdom given it's no longer really all that relevant beyond Europe, and I'd consider removing the United States because of their tendency to use force as a substitute for diplomacy. I'd certainly add India, for the reasons I've already mentioned, and might likely add Brazil for the same reasons. Ethiopia would probably be a good contender to be a permanent member, if only because they're among the largest African states population-wise and they are home to the African Union.

Though honestly, if I were you, OP, I'd expand your OP.
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Stellar Colonies
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:29 pm

Luziyca wrote:
All are Equal wrote:I think it's time to expand the number of permanent seats on the UNSC. Countries I'd see as viable candidates:

Germany
India
Japan
Canada
Brazil
Australia

What's everyone's opinion on this?

Why would you suggest these countries? Canada and Australia are basically American lackeys that are too small to really exert any influence, Japan's a regional power at best, and Germany is also a regional power (though we should consolidate the EU and give them France's spot in the SC). The only two from this list that could make sense are Brazil and India given their populations and their spheres of influence, but even then, I'm not sure if I support your suggestion.

If I could restructure the United Nations Security Council, and I had to keep permanent members, I'd certainly remove the United Kingdom given it's no longer really all that relevant beyond Europe, and I'd consider removing the United States because of their tendency to use force as a substitute for diplomacy. I'd certainly add India, for the reasons I've already mentioned, and might likely add Brazil for the same reasons. Ethiopia would probably be a good contender to be a permanent member, if only because they're among the largest African states population-wise and they are home to the African Union.

Though honestly, if I were you, OP, I'd expand your OP.

Removing the US and adding Ethiopia would certainly be a mystifying decision.
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Kubra
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Postby Kubra » Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:21 am

Luziyca wrote:
All are Equal wrote:I think it's time to expand the number of permanent seats on the UNSC. Countries I'd see as viable candidates:

Germany
India
Japan
Canada
Brazil
Australia

What's everyone's opinion on this?

Why would you suggest these countries? Canada and Australia are basically American lackeys that are too small to really exert any influence, Japan's a regional power at best, and Germany is also a regional power (though we should consolidate the EU and give them France's spot in the SC). The only two from this list that could make sense are Brazil and India given their populations and their spheres of influence, but even then, I'm not sure if I support your suggestion.

If I could restructure the United Nations Security Council, and I had to keep permanent members, I'd certainly remove the United Kingdom given it's no longer really all that relevant beyond Europe, and I'd consider removing the United States because of their tendency to use force as a substitute for diplomacy. I'd certainly add India, for the reasons I've already mentioned, and might likely add Brazil for the same reasons. Ethiopia would probably be a good contender to be a permanent member, if only because they're among the largest African states population-wise and they are home to the African Union.

Though honestly, if I were you, OP, I'd expand your OP.
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All are Equal
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Postby All are Equal » Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:27 pm

I agree totally that the UNSC was designed for the major powers to exert their (probably undue) influence over the rest of the word, AND that nuclear weapons were the main mechanism. I advocated the nation's I did because they are the largest powers not currently permanent members. Here's my thoughts on your suggestions

1) I'm inclined to agree that Canada and Australia probably don't make the cut.
2) Someone mentioned that the Islamic world needs representation, which I wholeheartedly agree with. Which nation gets the seat? I'd guess Sadi Arabia or Indonesia.
3) If you want to replace the U.K. and France with a single EU seat, that certainly makes sense.

Anyone advocating kicking the U.S. off is letting their anti-Americanism show, and it's not becoming.
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Northern Socialist Council Republics
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Postby Northern Socialist Council Republics » Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:13 pm

Punished UMN wrote:-snip-

One wonders what meaningful difference exists between the most powerful members of the international community forcing their will upon the rest of the world via international law and forcing their will upon the rest of the world via the threat of force. If international law does not permit weaker actors who otherwise would not be able to hold stronger actors accountable for their actions to do so, then we may as well write off the concept of international law as a failure and save money by shutting down most of the UN System of international organisations.

The system of permanent members should be abolished.
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Postby Thermodolia » Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:28 pm

Punished UMN wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:There shouldn't be permanent membership. It's made the UN an anti democratic institution.

The UN is not meant to be a democratic institution. The purpose of the permanent membership is explicitly to protect the interests of the permanent members against those of the multitude of nations. I agree though that some nations should be added and others subtracted from the council. India should take Britain's place and the Islamic world should also have at least one permanent member.

No. The permanent members should remain as such. Tbh the PRC never should have been granted permanent membership
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>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
Click for Da Funies

RIP Dya

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South Americanastan
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Posts: 1097
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Left-Leaning College State

Postby South Americanastan » Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:30 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:The UN is not meant to be a democratic institution. The purpose of the permanent membership is explicitly to protect the interests of the permanent members against those of the multitude of nations. I agree though that some nations should be added and others subtracted from the council. India should take Britain's place and the Islamic world should also have at least one permanent member.

No. The permanent members should remain as such. Tbh the PRC never should have been granted permanent membership

They weren't given the seat. It belonged to the Republic of China (Taiwan) until the UN decided they weren't a country and gave all of their positions to the PRC.
All around not-so-dumbass
#FreeNSGRojava, We Want Mod Transparency
Co-Founder of SETZA, Member of LITA and ICDN
My Embassy Program
NS Stats must die!
This nation represents my views, deal with it
North Sonovia wrote:
Cereskia wrote:Bill accidentaly ate it and dies

I was about to say "manpreg happens" but you just saved this thread from a cursed comment from being made.

Carthatska wrote:Man forgets to drive and launches himself off the highway, trailing excrement while screaming 'YOLO'.

New man.

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