NATION

PASSWORD

Changing of DEN punishments.

Who needs it, who got it, who hands it out and why.
User avatar
Flanderlion
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1871
Founded: Nov 25, 2013
Iron Fist Consumerists

Changing of DEN punishments.

Postby Flanderlion » Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:02 am

Hi,

Recently Moderation has reversed the permanent ban of the region DEN existing (providing it is not DEN themed). This was expressly said as the founding of any region named 'den' was permanently prohibited in the Predator punishments.
viewtopic.php?p=28235164#p28235164

As an ex-native/non-Predator user of DEN, the idea that this ruling is changed 5 years later without consultation isn't exactly welcome. Additionally, it being then refounded by an active GPer seems against the misguided idea of it being opened up. I personally would prefer the region to remain reserved, but if not, a player who was not around for DEN/did not know about the regions history/founded it for their love of kittens or something rather than using it as a theme to escape a ruling, would be preferable. The current Founder is none of those. NSGP has not fully moved past DEN's existence, with it still being regularly brought up, and is still the largest raiding organisation in modern NS with the largest ops/piler counts/updaters on the raiding side.

After an offsite discussion, it was suggested to bring this up in Moderation about the policy changing. Ideally, it would be cleared again, the name remaining reserved, and punishments for bad faith be added to the Founder, but I care more about the region being reserved/remaining gone/outside of being a GPer trophy rather than specific punishments for individuals.

Thanks
Flanderlion
As always, I'm representing myself.
Information
Wishlist

User avatar
Sedgistan
Senior Issues Moderator
 
Posts: 30271
Founded: Oct 20, 2006
Anarchy

Postby Sedgistan » Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:20 am

Added context: this is about the region Den. Mod post on the RMB:

We've had a few Getting Help Requests about this region, so for the record: we have allowed this region to exist, under strict conditions that it does not violate our prohibition on DEN-themed regions.

Any sort of DEN-related theming, including allowing DEN-themed nations in, running the region as a raider group, pinning DEN-related dispatches, discussing DEN on the RMB, and so on, will result in the region being shut down immediately.

So long as the region remains about cute fluffy animals, it's okay.


My view is essentially that it's 5 years since the Predator punishments. DEN/Cimmeria themed regions should remain prohibited for all time. This is not one. For a start, it's "Den"; secondly it's very restricted in its actions - anything at all that makes it look like the region is being DEN themed will result in the region being shut down. It's been long enough that we can allow this harmless region.

Yes, it's owned by a gameplayer and I guess it's a trophy region for someone. But there's not much to brag about holding a region that can only ever be fluffy animal themed. And the main intent of this aspect of the Predator punishments - a permanent end to DEN/Cimmeria themed organisations - remains in place.

That's not an end point to the discussion. We'll listen to viewpoints.

User avatar
Flanderlion
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1871
Founded: Nov 25, 2013
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Flanderlion » Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:49 am

Sedgistan wrote:Added context: this is about the region Den. Mod post on the RMB:

We've had a few Getting Help Requests about this region, so for the record: we have allowed this region to exist, under strict conditions that it does not violate our prohibition on DEN-themed regions.

Any sort of DEN-related theming, including allowing DEN-themed nations in, running the region as a raider group, pinning DEN-related dispatches, discussing DEN on the RMB, and so on, will result in the region being shut down immediately.

So long as the region remains about cute fluffy animals, it's okay.


My view is essentially that it's 5 years since the Predator punishments. DEN/Cimmeria themed regions should remain prohibited for all time. This is not one. For a start, it's "Den"; secondly it's very restricted in its actions - anything at all that makes it look like the region is being DEN themed will result in the region being shut down. It's been long enough that we can allow this harmless region.

Yes, it's owned by a gameplayer and I guess it's a trophy region for someone. But there's not much to brag about holding a region that can only ever be fluffy animal themed. And the main intent of this aspect of the Predator punishments - a permanent end to DEN/Cimmeria themed organisations - remains in place.

That's not an end point to the discussion. We'll listen to viewpoints.

Over a thousand nations - majority of them uninvolved with Predator, and most even uninvolved with offsite were moved to TRR in the mod action. There are active R/Ders, an Issue Editor, delegates, CTEd nations, and who knows what most of the RMB focused natives ended up doing. Still the largest to my knowledge mod movement of nations from an individual proper region, second only to Nugut (the jump point). There was a lot of disagreement with the decision in the first place, but it was decided that the decision then was final, and the region would remain destroyed forever. We weren't happy, but we moved on. But now, out of the blue, Moderation is now allowing a GPer who has talked about the region, and refounding it for literal years exclusive ownership of it in return for having a kitten theme and ensuring other players do not mention anything of the past. It shouldn't exist, and if it is allowed to, whatever the theme, non rule-breaking natives should've been consulted like Chan Islanders etc. (not specifically him, but he's a good example of a player who was a native yet never was offsite) The region should either been given to them, or mods should have ensured it went to a nation without prior knowledge of DEN's history/involvement in GP.

It's still a very well known region, despite the time passing. It's mentioned regularly both on and offsite in terms of being a raiding region (last RMB post apart from now on it was a week ago). I don't see another raiding region looking close to matching it in the short to even medium term. I personally don't see why the site would want a constant drama source of players pushing the lines, stoking controversy about punishments. Even if this player keeps it sticking rigidly to the guidelines, the odds are they'll CTE and the next one won't. The founder before this was just recently taken out by mod action.
As always, I'm representing myself.
Information
Wishlist

User avatar
Cormactopia Prime
Minister
 
Posts: 2741
Founded: Sep 21, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:21 am

A few points to make:

If you're going to continue to place such heavy restrictions on what constitutes a "DEN theme," I would scrap this decision and go back to these regions being on the blocked name list. You're practically inviting players to end up running afoul of the rules as they become less aware of the details of this policy over time. Just as one example of how this could go wrong, if a nation with a DEN flag moves in there for a few days, a week, whatever, and isn't ejected and banned because the Founder didn't notice, are you going to punish the Founder because you'll have no way of knowing whether he truly didn't notice or he was just letting it slide? If it happens like a year from now, how about the player whose nation has the DEN flag, even though maybe they'd have no idea they're not supposed to have it? These prohibitions aren't listed somewhere prominently accessible like the FAQ or OSRS. If you're going to leave "DEN-themed" regions prohibited, just leave the regions prohibited. You're inviting unintentional rule-breaking if you let these regions exist with these heavy restrictions imposed. We don't need more Predator-related deletions.

My second point is I think instead of doing that, you should just remove all the restrictions. It's been five years since Predator, emotions were high at the time, the punishments in hindsight were extremely excessive and based on emotions running high, and I think it's fair to say five years later "it's been five years, we're moving on." There were incarnations of DEN before the last one that never collectively and purposely broke any rules, over a span of much longer than five years. I think it's wrong to keep a legacy that is historic to gameplay permanently banned based on the breaking of what were, especially at the time, extremely ambiguous and complicated script rules. Let's just let it go. You don't have to admit the punishments were excessive, though they were, to just move on five years later. Whatever the merits of the punishments, they worked, and there's no reason to believe raiders reviving DEN would revert to rule-breaking given the punishments did their job.

Finally, even if you decide to take none of the above under consideration or ultimately you dismiss it, please, please reconsider the implications of making raiding part of a DEN theme. Dozens and dozens of regions -- maybe it's more -- throughout NS history have raided. You're saying this region is fine as long as it stays fluffy animal themed. Why would raids by this region that are fluffy animal themed not also be fine? But more importantly, this flies in the face of years of moderation policy stating that you don't want to make subjective determinations about what constitutes illegal raiding and griefing, hence the removal of the old griefing rules, hence your dismissal of every request to make raiding illegal. When is a raid a raid? If a couple nations from this region move to a region for the purpose of one becoming WA Delegate and then alter nothing about that region, or make alterations that look more like region-building than raiding, is that going to be a raid? You can bet defenders will GHR it as one, just like they used to religiously GHR anything that might or might not have been a violation of the griefing rules. If it's determined to be a raid, even though maybe it isn't, who faces the consequences? Those nations? The Founder of Den? Anyone in Den? Based on past moderation statements, I can't imagine why you would want to delve into this complicated quagmire where you're back to determining whether something is or isn't illegal R/D.

In summary, I feel like this policy was not well thought through and, much like the unprecedented punishments that were handed down five years ago, the decision to free up these names again wasn't based on reasonable deliberation. Certainly, there was no consultation with the community of players affected before just deciding to reverse this policy (which, actually, you could say is everyone, but I primarily mean the gameplay community). I don't know how much discussion of this took place behind the scenes, but I hope you'll revisit it with some of the points I've made here in mind, especially the bad, bad place you're taking all of us and especially yourselves by reversing years of policy that you're not going to make subjective calls about R/D.
Last edited by Cormactopia Prime on Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cormac Skollvaldr
Chaos King of Entropy

"Follow your arrow wherever it points." - Kacey Musgraves

Sign the Charter of the International Alliance for Saving Our Rainforests and Our Time

User avatar
Durm
Secretary
 
Posts: 28
Founded: Jun 16, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Durm » Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:33 am

Flanderlion wrote:punishments for bad faith be added to the Founder

If someone is told something is legal, they shouldn't be punished for doing it.
Cormactopia Prime wrote:if a nation with a DEN flag moves in there for a few days, a week, whatever, and isn't ejected and banned because the Founder didn't notice

The region has a password.
Cormactopia Prime wrote:If a couple nations from this region move to a region for the purpose of one becoming WA Delegate

...then it is WA multiing. The region has a password and all of the nations in it are puppets.
Visoraxus Holoratus Starkiller

User avatar
Cormactopia Prime
Minister
 
Posts: 2741
Founded: Sep 21, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:38 am

Durm wrote:
Flanderlion wrote:punishments for bad faith be added to the Founder

If someone is told something is legal, they shouldn't be punished for doing it.

Very much agreed with this, for the record. The current Founder did absolutely nothing wrong.

Durm wrote:
Cormactopia Prime wrote:if a nation with a DEN flag moves in there for a few days, a week, whatever, and isn't ejected and banned because the Founder didn't notice

The region has a password.
Cormactopia Prime wrote:If a couple nations from this region move to a region for the purpose of one becoming WA Delegate

...then it is WA multiing. The region has a password and all of the nations in it are puppets.

That's the case now, but may not always be the case. You may not always be the Founder. This may not be the only DEN region revived. I'm here to talk about the implications this policy could have in the future and in other regions. While Den has been used as an example to make my points, it's unlikely to be the only example.
Cormac Skollvaldr
Chaos King of Entropy

"Follow your arrow wherever it points." - Kacey Musgraves

Sign the Charter of the International Alliance for Saving Our Rainforests and Our Time

User avatar
Bormiar
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1145
Founded: Mar 25, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bormiar » Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:38 pm

I don't know who refounded it, but as said above, they're an active gameplayer. This isn't some issues player who just liked the name. It's someone who undoubtably knows the history and is aware of DEN as a rule-breaking raider region. Furthermore, they appear to be doing nothing with the region.

My point is that this is still implicitly a trophy region, and I suspect it's more explicit off-site. You can't police that, so really the only decent options are to delete this region, or to lift the ban entirely.

User avatar
Durm
Secretary
 
Posts: 28
Founded: Jun 16, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Durm » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:09 am

Bormiar wrote:I don't know who refounded it, but as said above, they're an active gameplayer. This isn't some issues player who just liked the name. It's someone who undoubtably knows the history and is aware of DEN as a rule-breaking raider region. Furthermore, they appear to be doing nothing with the region.

My point is that this is still implicitly a trophy region, and I suspect it's more explicit off-site. You can't police that, so really the only decent options are to delete this region, or to lift the ban entirely.

There is nothing more explicit off-site.
Visoraxus Holoratus Starkiller


Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to Moderation

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot]

Advertisement

Remove ads