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[PASSED][#374 REPLACEMENT] Equal Justice Under Law

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Daarwyrth
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[PASSED][#374 REPLACEMENT] Equal Justice Under Law

Postby Daarwyrth » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:40 pm

Jylien Barwald, Press Secretary of the Daarwyrthian delegation: In light of the repeal draft of GAR #374 “The Rule Of Law" that the delegation from Greater Cesnica has co-authored with us, we hereby present the replacement draft for this repeal, with our friends from Greater Cesnica as the co-authoring delegation. As always, feedback and commentary are most welcome.

Equal Justice Under Law
Category: Civil Rights | Strength: Strong



Cognizant of the recently repealed GAR #374 “The Rule Of Law” that mandated liability and responsibility for the actions and decisions of government officials and institutions of member nations before the law,

Adamant to restore the principles of the rule of law in a manner that truly embodies the spirit of this noble ideal, so as to ensure that this fundamental component of governance will stand firm on pillars of fairness and justice, and will ward off both arbitrary or discriminatory punishment,

The General Assembly hereby:

  1. Defines "legislative immunity" as immunity from prosecution or litigation for actions conducted in the context of legitimate legislative activity such as the casting of votes or the debating of legislation,

  2. Establishes that all private and public individuals, officials, entities, and institutions, as well as the state itself and its administrative and political subdivisions are to be held accountable for the acts and decisions that have been made during the employ, tenure, appointment or existence of the aforementioned. Such accountability shall be under either the national, regional, and/or local laws of member states, where applicable, as well as under any guidelines and/or disciplinary measures that may be in use by a particular organization,

  3. Requires that all member nations have the principles of the supremacy of the law and accountability to the law enshrined in the highest form of their national law,

  4. Clarifies that:

    1. member states may extend legislative immunity to individuals empowered to conduct legislative activity; and that

    2. officials or institutions empowered to do so may carry out acts of clemency such as pardons and commutations, provided that such acts comply with extant or future General Assembly legislation and the spirit of this resolution.

Co-authored with Greater Cesnica.
Last edited by Goobergunchia on Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:17 pm, edited 11 times in total.
Reason: Question put and agreed to.
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Daarwyrth
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Postby Daarwyrth » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:40 pm

DRAFT 3:
Equal Justice Under Law
Category: Civil Rights | Strength: Strong



Cognizant of the recently repealed GAR #374 “The Rule Of Law” that mandated liability and responsibility for the actions and decisions of government officials and institutions of member nations before the law,

Adamant to restore the principles of the rule of law in a manner that truly embodies the spirit of this noble ideal, so as to ensure that this fundamental component of governance will stand firm on pillars of fairness and justice, and will ward off both arbitrary or discriminatory punishment,

The General Assembly hereby:

  1. Defines “legislative immunity” as immunity from prosecution or litigation for actions conducted in the context of legitimate legislative activity such as the casting of votes or the debating of legislation,

  2. Establishes that all private and public individuals, officials, entities, and institutions, as well as the state itself and its administrative and political subdivisions, are to be held accountable for the acts and decisions that have been made during the employ, tenure, appointment or existence of the aforementioned, within the confines of the established law of member nations, and previously passed World Assembly resolutions,

  3. Requires that all member nations have the principles of the supremacy of the law and accountability to the law enshrined in the highest form of their national law,

  4. Clarifies that:

    1. member states may extend legislative immunity to individuals empowered to conduct legislative activity; and that

    2. officials or institutions empowered to do so may carry out acts of clemency such as pardons and commutations, provided that such acts comply with extant or future General Assembly legislation and the spirit of this resolution.

Co-authored with Greater Cesnica.


DRAFT 2:
Equal Justice Under Law
Category: Civil Rights | Strength: Strong



Cognizant of the recently repealed GAR #374 “The Rule Of Law” that mandated liability and responsibility for the actions and decisions of government officials and institutions of member nations before the law,

Adamant to restore the principles of the rule of law in a manner that truly embodies the spirit of this noble ideal, so as to ensure that this fundamental component of governance will stand firm on pillars of fairness and justice, and will ward off both arbitrary or discriminatory punishment;

The General Assembly hereby:

  1. Establishes that all private and public individuals, officials, entities, and institutions, as well as the state itself and its administrative and political subdivisions, are to be held accountable for the acts and decisions that have been made during the employ, tenure or appointment of the aforementioned, within the confines of the established law of member nations, and previously passed World Assembly resolutions,

  2. Requires that all member nations have the principles of the supremacy of the law and accountability to the law enshrined in the highest form of their national law,

  3. Clarifies that officials or institutions empowered to do so may carry out acts of clemency such as pardons and commutations, provided that such acts comply with extant or future General Assembly legislation and the spirit of this resolution.

Co-authored with Greater Cesnica.


DRAFT 1:
Jylien Barwald, Press Secretary of the Daarwyrthian delegation: In light of the repeal draft of GAR #374 “The Rule Of Law" that the delegation from Greater Cesnica has co-authored with us, we hereby present the replacement draft for this repeal, with our friends from Greater Cesnica as the co-authoring delegation. As always, feedback and commentary are most welcome.

Establishing The Rule Of Law
Category: Civil Rights | Strength: Strong



Cognizant of the recently repealed GAR #374 “The Rule Of Law” that mandated liability and responsibility for the actions and decisions of government officials and institutions of member nations before the law,

Adamant to restore the principles of the rule of law in a manner that truly embodies the spirit of this noble ideal, so as to ensure that this fundamental component of governance will stand firm on pillars of fairness and justice, and will ward off both arbitrary or discriminatory punishment;

The General Assembly hereby:

  1. Establishes that all private and public individuals, officials, entities, and institutions, as well as the state itself and its administrative and political subdivisions, are to be held accountable for the acts and decisions that have been made during the employ, tenure or appointment of the aforementioned, within the confines of the established law of member nations, and previously passed World Assembly resolutions,

  2. Requires that all member nations have the principles of the supremacy of the law and accountability to the law enshrined in the highest form of their national law,

  3. Clarifies that officials or institutions empowered to do so may carry out acts of clemency such as pardons and commutations, provided that such acts comply with extant or future General Assembly legislation and the spirit of this resolution.

Co-authored with Greater Cesnica.
Last edited by Daarwyrth on Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:57 pm

"We are grateful to the Delegation from Daarwyrth for their cooperation with our Delegation in pursuit of this most noble goal. It is our hope that we get an opportunity to collaborate on projects of importance such as this in the future."

OOC: The companion repeal draft can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=506232
Last edited by Greater Cesnica on Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Tinhampton » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:21 pm

Alexander Smith, Tinhamptonian Delegate-Ambassador to the World Assembly: May I suggest Equal Justice Under Law* as an alternative title? While this cuts much too close to The Rule of Law's Articles 1 and 2b for my liking, I will reluctantly accept this as a replacement.

(*OOC: You'll know it when you see it :P )
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Daarwyrth
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Postby Daarwyrth » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:43 pm

Tinhampton wrote:Alexander Smith, Tinhamptonian Delegate-Ambassador to the World Assembly: May I suggest Equal Justice Under Law* as an alternative title? While this cuts much too close to The Rule of Law's Articles 1 and 2b for my liking, I will reluctantly accept this as a replacement.

(*OOC: You'll know it when you see it :P )

Dame Maria vyn Nysen, WA Representative of Daarwyrth: "The Rule of Law is a solid and good piece of legislation, except for its fatal flaw, which is outlined in the argumentation of the repeal. As such, it felt appropriate to keep the spirit of the original proposal intact, yet remove the fatal flaw, and add in a touch of something new, this in the form of Clause 2. And yes, a much better title for the proposal, Delegate-Ambassador, thank you."

(OOC: Ah, clever. Very clever! ;))
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Trellania
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Postby Trellania » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:52 pm

Dame Allania wanders in and looks at the law, then smiles. "Well, I can't speak on this just yet due to the repeal not filed, but what about Establishing Rule and Order for Greater Excellence?" She considers a moment. "No, better idea... Enshrining Rule and Order."
Last edited by Trellania on Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Daarwyrth
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Postby Daarwyrth » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:49 pm

Trellania wrote:Dame Allania wanders in and looks at the law, then smiles. "Well, I can't speak on this just yet due to the repeal not filed, but what about Establishing Rule and Order for Greater Excellence?" She considers a moment. "No, better idea... Enshrining Rule and Order."

Maria vyn Nysen smiles friendly. "Those a good alternative suggestions that our delegation will keep under consideration. Yet, and we don't mean this as a slight in any way, our preference goes to the current new proposal title.

We are looking forward to any commentary and feedback you might have once the repeal of GAR #374 is closer to submission by the delegation from Greater Cesnica."
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Old Hope
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Postby Old Hope » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:01 pm

Daarwyrth wrote:
[list=1][*]Establishes that all private and public individuals, officials, entities, and institutions, as well as the state itself and its administrative and political subdivisions, are to be held accountable for the acts and decisions that have been made during the employ, tenure or appointment of the aforementioned, within the confines of the established law of member nations, and previously passed World Assembly resolutions,
There is so much wrong with this:
are to be held accountable for the acts and decisions that have been made during the employ, tenure or appointment of the aforementioned

1.Hell no. Accountable to ALL acts and decision that have been made? The law does what the law says and it does not restrict WHOSE acts and decisions someone could be held accountable of. Which means accountable of all acts and decisions made anywhere. Easy to miss but a grave error.
2. A state has no tenure, is not appointed for any time, nor being employed.

3."The entire parliament, except for the radical anti-WA Fascist Party, was arrested ..." There's a reason for why politicians have qualified immunity, at least.

Requires that all member nations have the principles of the supremacy of the law and accountability to the law enshrined in the highest form of their national law,


Clarifies that officials or institutions empowered to do so may carry out acts of clemency such as pardons and commutations, provided that such acts comply with extant or future General Assembly legislation and the spirit of this resolution.


4. I do not think that amnesties after a revolution would be in spirit of this resolution. Which is terrible. The principle of the supremacy of the law is a poor one, ambassador. If the law says that the dictator shall reign until their natural death and that no one should try to depose them, then your principle of supremacy of the law forbids pardons to people who overthrew the dictator. If the law says that the nation shall be a dictatorship forever and forbids amendments and leaving the WA then the nation will be ALWAYS a dictatorship. We don't want to force the WA to perpetuate the tyranny of dicators or oligarchs.
Last edited by Old Hope on Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Goobergunchia » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:21 pm

Old Hope wrote:3."The entire parliament, except for the radical anti-WA Fascist Party, was arrested ..." There's a reason for why politicians have qualified immunity, at least.


We believe that the correct solution to this would be to provide an exemption for parliamentary immunity for legislators, that need not attach to all government officials.

[Lord] Michael Evif
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Daarwyrth
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Postby Daarwyrth » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:24 pm

Old Hope wrote:
Daarwyrth wrote:
[list=1][*]Establishes that all private and public individuals, officials, entities, and institutions, as well as the state itself and its administrative and political subdivisions, are to be held accountable for the acts and decisions that have been made during the employ, tenure or appointment of the aforementioned, within the confines of the established law of member nations, and previously passed World Assembly resolutions,
There is so much wrong with this:
are to be held accountable for the acts and decisions that have been made during the employ, tenure or appointment of the aforementioned

1.Hell no. Accountable to ALL acts and decision that have been made? The law does what the law says and it does not restrict WHOSE acts and decisions someone could be held accountable of. Which means accountable of all acts and decisions made anywhere. Easy to miss but a grave error.
2. A state has no tenure, is not appointed for any time, nor being employed.

3."The entire parliament, except for the radical anti-WA Fascist Party, was arrested ..." There's a reason for why politicians have qualified immunity, at least.

Requires that all member nations have the principles of the supremacy of the law and accountability to the law enshrined in the highest form of their national law,


Clarifies that officials or institutions empowered to do so may carry out acts of clemency such as pardons and commutations, provided that such acts comply with extant or future General Assembly legislation and the spirit of this resolution.


4. I do not think that amnesties after a revolution would be in spirit of this resolution. Which is terrible. The principle of the supremacy of the law is a poor one, ambassador. If the law says that the dictator shall reign until their natural death and that no one should try to depose them, then your principle of supremacy of the law forbids pardons to people who overthrew the dictator. We don't want to force the WA to perpetuate the tyranny of dicators or oligarchs.

Vyn Nysen: "The proposal "The Rule of Law" has been in force for some time and I haven't seen you complain about that one, Ambassador. As this proposal preserves the spirit of the original minus the fatal flaw as noted in the repeal proposal, I disagree with your statements. All government officials and institutions must be answerable to the law, as should be the state and its political divisions. A truly just and democratic state observes the rule of law and recognises the supremacy of the law and accountability to it.

The fact that you speak of this promoting tyranny proves that you have woefully misunderstood the content of this proposal draft, Ambassador."
Last edited by Daarwyrth on Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Daarwyrth » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:30 pm

Goobergunchia wrote:We believe that the correct solution to this would be to provide an exemption for parliamentary immunity for legislators, that need not attach to all government officials.

[Lord] Michael Evif
Goobergunchian WA Ambassador

Vyn Nysen: "And what if the parliamentarian in question starts to advocate for the removal of ethnic groups from a nation? When he or she starts throwing racist, inflammatory remarks inciting the populace against a specific minority? Does such behaviour and conduct deserve immunity from responsibility before the law as well?"
Last edited by Daarwyrth on Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Old Hope
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Postby Old Hope » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:39 pm

Daarwyrth wrote:
Old Hope wrote:There is so much wrong with this:

1.Hell no. Accountable to ALL acts and decision that have been made? The law does what the law says and it does not restrict WHOSE acts and decisions someone could be held accountable of. Which means accountable of all acts and decisions made anywhere. Easy to miss but a grave error.
2. A state has no tenure, is not appointed for any time, nor being employed.

3."The entire parliament, except for the radical anti-WA Fascist Party, was arrested ..." There's a reason for why politicians have qualified immunity, at least.


4. I do not think that amnesties after a revolution would be in spirit of this resolution. Which is terrible. The principle of the supremacy of the law is a poor one, ambassador. If the law says that the dictator shall reign until their natural death and that no one should try to depose them, then your principle of supremacy of the law forbids pardons to people who overthrew the dictator. We don't want to force the WA to perpetuate the tyranny of dicators or oligarchs.

Vyn Nysen: "The proposal "The Rule of Law" has been in force for some time and I haven't seen you complain about that one, Ambassador. As this proposal preserves the spirit of the original minus the fatal flaw as noted in the repeal proposal, I disagree with your statements. All government officials and institutions must be answerable to the law, as should be the state and its political divisions. A truly just and democratic state observes the rule of law and recognises the supremacy of the law and accountability to it.

The fact that you speak of this promoting tyranny proves that you have woefully misunderstood the content of this proposal draft, Ambassador."

You have not seen us complain about that one because it does NOT have the fatal error. Rule of law only says that people have to be held "accountable under the law"
What you say is drastically different.
"A truly just and democratic state observes the rule of law and recognises the supremacy of the law and accountability to it. "
No. A truly democratic state observes the rule of the people, not the law.
A truly just state does not recognize the supremacy of laws in the neighboring fascist dictatorship.

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Postby Goobergunchia » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:44 pm

Daarwyrth wrote:
Goobergunchia wrote:We believe that the correct solution to this would be to provide an exemption for parliamentary immunity for legislators, that need not attach to all government officials.

Vyn Nysen: "And what if the parliamentarian in question starts to advocate for the removal of ethnic groups from a nation? When he or she starts throwing racist, inflammatory remarks inciting the populace against a specific minority? Does such behaviour and conduct deserve immunity from responsibility before the law as well?"

If this occurs, it is the responsibility of the voters to vote them out, or at the very least, for their legislature to expel them. Perhaps they can be prosecuted once they are removed from office -- should one's nation have such restrictions on free speech so as to enable such a prosecution, that is.

[Lord] Michael Evif
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Trellania
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Postby Trellania » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:46 pm

Daarwyrth wrote:
Goobergunchia wrote:We believe that the correct solution to this would be to provide an exemption for parliamentary immunity for legislators, that need not attach to all government officials.

[Lord] Michael Evif
Goobergunchian WA Ambassador

Vyn Nysen: "And what if the parliamentarian in question starts to advocate for the removal of ethnic groups from a nation? When he or she starts throwing racist, inflammatory remarks inciting the populace against a specific minority? Does such behaviour and conduct deserve immunity from responsibility before the law as well?"


The raven-haired assistant sighs.

"And if a parliamentarian is arrested for speaking up against removal of ethnic groups, decrying racist remarks, or calling for the better treatment of a minority? Would you still insist that parliamentarians should be arrestable? The problem with any issue of immunity or arrest is they can always be abused by the people you don't want to abuse them. At the end of the day, you must weigh whether you wish a hateful voice to be protected until they are removed from office or you wish to see a helpful voice imprisoned. You do not get to choose to face neither threat without denying the people a voice at all, and even then you only open yourself up to different threats.

"Those who seek to corrupt nations into hatred and genocide will try to do so with whatever state the government is in and will plan to use the government's design to their advantage. It is up to you if you wish to try to prevent the loss of voices against such movements by the machinations they will use in their attempt to seize power."
Last edited by Trellania on Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:54 pm

E Mortimer Wellesley. As Ambassador Bell noted in another debate, some level of immunity for government officials is necessary to conduct business without an fear dilatory and strategic civil suits.
Last edited by Imperium Anglorum on Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Greater Cesnica » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:06 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:E Mortimer Wellesley. As Ambassador Bell noted in another debate, some level of immunity for government officials is necessary to conduct business without an fear dilatory and strategic civil suits.

OOC: Exempting legislative immunity seems logical to me. Regarding other forms of immunity, however, I continue to oppose them.

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:09 pm

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:E Mortimer Wellesley. As Ambassador Bell noted in another debate, some level of immunity for government officials is necessary to conduct business without an fear dilatory and strategic civil suits.

OOC: Exempting legislative immunity seems logical to me. Regarding other forms of immunity, however, I continue to oppose them.

I'll just sue you in your personal capacity for something or anything you did recently then. Lawyer up. Remember you have to front the bill.

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Greater Cesnica
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:12 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
Greater Cesnica wrote:OOC: Exempting legislative immunity seems logical to me. Regarding other forms of immunity, however, I continue to oppose them.

I'll just sue you in your personal capacity for something or anything you did recently then. Lawyer up. Remember you have to front the bill.

OOC: Fair :p

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Wayneactia
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Postby Wayneactia » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:36 pm

Uh huh.... And without some sort of immunity, politicians will able to be sued over a Tweet, or some off the cuff remark.

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Postby Greater Cesnica » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:38 pm

Wayneactia wrote:Uh huh.... And without some sort of immunity, politicians will able to be sued over a Tweet, or some off the cuff remark.

OOC: As you can see by my latest post, I wish to extend immunity to politicians.

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Wayneactia
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Postby Wayneactia » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:48 pm

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:Uh huh.... And without some sort of immunity, politicians will able to be sued over a Tweet, or some off the cuff remark.

OOC: As you can see by my latest post, I wish to extend immunity to politicians.

And the police? Every arrest will wind up in a lawsuit of excessive force and such. Most countries will go broke either fighting or paying out the lawsuits. Unintended consequences are the worst kind of consequences. Food for thought.

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Greater Cesnica
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:49 pm

Wayneactia wrote:
Greater Cesnica wrote:OOC: As you can see by my latest post, I wish to extend immunity to politicians.

And the police? Every arrest will wind up in a lawsuit of excessive force and such. Most countries will go broke either fighting or paying out the lawsuits. Unintended consequences are the worst kind of consequences. Food for thought.

I've already considered it. Cops don't need, nor deserve qualified immunity.
Last edited by Greater Cesnica on Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Wayneactia
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Postby Wayneactia » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:52 pm

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:And the police? Every arrest will wind up in a lawsuit of excessive force and such. Most countries will go broke either fighting or paying out the lawsuits. Unintended consequences are the worst kind of consequences. Food for thought.

I've already considered it. Cops don't need, nor deserve qualified immunity.

Then be prepared to go broke. Police forces and by nature governments are obliged to pay for the defense of their officers unless they are terminated from the force, which isn't as easy as the news makes it out to be.

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Greater Cesnica
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Anarchy

Postby Greater Cesnica » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:55 pm

Wayneactia wrote:
Greater Cesnica wrote:I've already considered it. Cops don't need, nor deserve qualified immunity.

Then be prepared to go broke. Police forces and by nature governments are obliged to pay for the defense of their officers unless they are terminated from the force, which isn't as easy as the news makes it out to be.

As you can see all the governments besides Canada and the United States have gone broke from not having qualified immunity for cops :roll:

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Trellania
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Founded: Jun 07, 2021
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Postby Trellania » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:56 pm

Wayneactia wrote:
Greater Cesnica wrote:I've already considered it. Cops don't need, nor deserve qualified immunity.

Then be prepared to go broke. Police forces and by nature governments are obliged to pay for the defense of their officers unless they are terminated from the force, which isn't as easy as the news makes it out to be.


Dame Allania sighs, then looks to the delegates from Greater Cesnica and Daarwyth. "Trellania will support the repeal and this bill if you delay the replacement just long enough for us to file ten thousand lawsuits against Wayne. And only against Wayne."

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