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Nativism vs. "your ancestors weren't from here either"

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GuessTheAltAccount
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Nativism vs. "your ancestors weren't from here either"

Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:44 am

Image

I've never really been sure what to make of immigration.

On the one hand, it sounds pretty mutual, in and of itself, for young immigrants to come to the first world, and make more money than they're used to by working to support the older retirees instead of counting on having kids who'd cost $250000 each to raise.

On the other hand, reasoning like that mentioned in the webcomic has often struck me as flawed, and in turn, as reflecting badly on pro-immigration people as a whole.

A: Doesn't this actually make immigration look like a bad thing? It cites a historical example of the migrants destroying the pre-existing cultures of the places to which they immigrated, bringing new diseases with them when they did. Perhaps the idea is that we as their descendants have no right to whine about the same thing happening to us (though quite frankly we didn't choose to be born as the descendants of imperialists) but why would people who supposedly like immigration emphasize its ill effects?

B: If white people all up and left Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the USA, etc... en masse, would there really be any going back to the way things used to be, or have the changes made been too irreversible anyway?

C: What about places to which white people actually are native, like Europe? Is nativism okay there? If so, why is it condemned there as well, and if not, why does anyone feel the need to invoke "white people aren't native to the countries they colonized" reasoning if that isn't really what they have a problem with in the first place?
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Postby Resilient Acceleration » Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:50 am

I would say that all pre-status quo legitimacies disappear after three generations. After which, the old population will all be already dead, the culture have changed, and both the "settlers" and "natives" will relate far more to the land, norms, and society they now inhabit than their "ancestral homeland".

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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:31 am

I'm an immigrant and I'm okay
I sleep all night and I work all day.

I cut down trees, I eat my lunch
I go to the lavatory
On Wednesdays I go shopping
And have buttered scones for tea

I cut down trees, I skip and jump
I like to press wild flowers
I put on women's clothing
And hang around in bars

To be fair, I immigrated to Berlin.

Immigration is never the issue. It's "mass" immigration that is a political issue.
It shouldn't be though. People have moved to other place since forever.
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Picairn
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Postby Picairn » Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:15 am

Resilient Acceleration wrote:I would say that all pre-status quo legitimacies disappear after three generations. After which, the old population will all be already dead, the culture have changed, and both the "settlers" and "natives" will relate far more to the land, norms, and society they now inhabit than their "ancestral homeland".

All land nowadays is stolen land anyway. There's a possibility our homo sapiens ancestors killed off the Neanderthals (or spread diseases to them) and conquered their land as our forefathers migrated. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_extinction
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:20 am

I just think it's funny seeing people whose own grandparents struggled to make it here demonizing new immigrants. I knew a girl in my highschool who was rather racist toward black folks, hispanics and Asians, and she was Italian. And in her lowest depths of hatred she never stopped and realized that all the shit she was saying about said groups was said about Italians once. Italians were called criminals and terrorists in the early 20th century, and were considered to be a wave of brown filth that had washed up on America's Shores and threatened its very existence. And look what happened. Did America fall apart? No, it integrated the Italians in so now some of them have the privilege of thumbing their nose at others, like how the Irish fucked with the Italians despite having been themselves hated only 40 years before.

People like to complain about racism directed at their group but then are totally cool with it being tossed at someone else. That's hypocritical.
Last edited by Borderlands of Rojava on Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:23 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:I'm an immigrant and I'm okay
I sleep all night and I work all day.

I cut down trees, I eat my lunch
I go to the lavatory
On Wednesdays I go shopping
And have buttered scones for tea

I cut down trees, I skip and jump
I like to press wild flowers
I put on women's clothing
And hang around in bars

To be fair, I immigrated to Berlin.

Immigration is never the issue. It's "mass" immigration that is a political issue.
It shouldn't be though. People have moved to other place since forever.

Not really, for an American looking to move to Europe its a pain in the ass. You pretty much need to be sponsored by a job to have a chance at it, or a European spouse.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:34 am

Imagine concluding that immigration is bad because European colonists went around the world murdering and conquering people.
Last edited by Ifreann on Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:37 am

Ifreann wrote:Imagine concluding that immigration is bad because European colonists went around the world murdering and conquering people.


I think that's the funny thing about the debate on immigration. People are pretending that Muslims moving to Europe is the worst thing to ever happen anywhere, and it's like "you can say that when the Muslims are making you pick rubber from trees at the threat of your hand being cut off, or when they force you to speak their language or when the Muslims allow mass starvation to occur in your country after they occupy it." Regardless of whatever issues Europe is facing with immigration currently, it sounds pretty hypocritical when certain people in a place like France say "we're being taken over" and French Algeria was a thing only like 70 years ago (not actually that long in terms of human history). France with Muslims in it is far better than French Algeria was.
Last edited by Borderlands of Rojava on Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

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Picairn
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Postby Picairn » Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:39 am

Ifreann wrote:Imagine concluding that immigration is bad because European colonists went around the world murdering and conquering people.

False equivalence is the OP's whole shtick, really.
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:44 am

The white people living in places like Australia or the US really can't go back anywhere at this point. Besides the fact many of them are a mix of European ethnicities and other ethnicities too, there's also the fact that they've lived their whole lives down under or in the land of the free, so i don't see why they should have to move.
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"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:48 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:The white people living in places like Australia or the US really can't go back anywhere at this point. Besides the fact many of them are a mix of European ethnicities and other ethnicities too, there's also the fact that they've lived their whole lives down under or in the land of the free, so i don't see why they should have to move.

XKCD: "It's a bit silly to say that immigrants coming to America should learn English"
OP: "So you're saying that all white people should leave all former colonies?"
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You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:56 am

Ethel mermania wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:I'm an immigrant and I'm okay
I sleep all night and I work all day.

I cut down trees, I eat my lunch
I go to the lavatory
On Wednesdays I go shopping
And have buttered scones for tea

I cut down trees, I skip and jump
I like to press wild flowers
I put on women's clothing
And hang around in bars

To be fair, I immigrated to Berlin.

Immigration is never the issue. It's "mass" immigration that is a political issue.
It shouldn't be though. People have moved to other place since forever.

Not really, for an American looking to move to Europe its a pain in the ass. You pretty much need to be sponsored by a job to have a chance at it, or a European spouse.


It's similar the other way around? I need a work permit, and one of the main ways is being sponsored for one. At least, that's been my understanding after glossing over it a few years ago.
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Postby Wizlandia » Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:00 am

I think we ought to encourage learning English (or the native language) simply for the fact that its very useful and helps with integration. That being said, there's a certain nativist strain that just wants immigrants to abandon their own culture, language and traditions, which I don't support. Nor do I support limiting immigration to English/native speakers.

As for immigration in general, I'm very pro (bordering on open borders). People should have the freedom to live where they want, not to mention the vast economic benefits that would accrue if people in impoverished nations could move to places where they would be more productive.

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Postby The Holy Therns » Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:01 am

Really thought this was a gotcha, didn't you?
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:23 am

Ifreann wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:The white people living in places like Australia or the US really can't go back anywhere at this point. Besides the fact many of them are a mix of European ethnicities and other ethnicities too, there's also the fact that they've lived their whole lives down under or in the land of the free, so i don't see why they should have to move.

XKCD: "It's a bit silly to say that immigrants coming to America should learn English"
OP: "So you're saying that all white people should leave all former colonies?"


I hate absolutist views like that. Why does it seem like nowadays when you try to be more inclusive, conservative types often misinterpret it as a literal war on white people or Christians or America?
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"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:38 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Ifreann wrote:XKCD: "It's a bit silly to say that immigrants coming to America should learn English"
OP: "So you're saying that all white people should leave all former colonies?"


I hate absolutist views like that. Why does it seem like nowadays when you try to be more inclusive, conservative types often misinterpret it as a literal war on white people or Christians or America?

You need extreme problems to justify extreme solutions.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Mask Wearing That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing
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You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:45 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:Not really, for an American looking to move to Europe its a pain in the ass. You pretty much need to be sponsored by a job to have a chance at it, or a European spouse.


It's similar the other way around? I need a work permit, and one of the main ways is being sponsored for one. At least, that's been my understanding after glossing over it a few years ago.

The us is pretty weird, an h1b visa is not really a path to citizenship, but it could be, ( I have 2 friends who went through that). To become a citizen Its either hit the lottery (literally), or marry an American.

It use to be if you had a promised job, they wouldn’t let you in because you were taking a job from an American; but if you didn't have one you could come in and get one immediately
Last edited by Ethel mermania on Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kilobugya » Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:52 am

Ideally people should be free to move wherever they want. Open the borders ! I can support some amount of border control, to prevent known criminals from escaping justice or entering a place to commit crimes, or to prevent smuggling, and I can understand temporary closing of borders during a pandemic. But open borders should be the default, with restriction only when really required.

As for language, I'm fine with a country having one (or a few) legal language that is used for all official paperwork, laws, public schools, ... but people should be free to talk whatever language they want (including Elvish or Klingon) between themselves. And while newcomers should be encouraged to learn the language (like by having free lessons available at accessible places and times) we shouldn't force them to give up their native tongue completely.
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Postby Forsher » Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:59 am

Ifreann wrote:Imagine concluding that immigration is bad because European colonists went around the world murdering and conquering people.


It's a coherent claim in NZ.

There's an immigration problem!
Send down some law.
There's still an immigration problem.
Create a legal regime.
The legal regime has a finance problem!
Steal land from the natives and sell it to the immigrants.

Literally nowhere else was colonised like this, though.
Last edited by Forsher on Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:12 am

Ethel mermania wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
It's similar the other way around? I need a work permit, and one of the main ways is being sponsored for one. At least, that's been my understanding after glossing over it a few years ago.

The us is pretty weird, an h1b visa is not really a path to citizenship, but it could be, ( I have 2 friends who went through that). To become a citizen Its either hit the lottery (literally), or marry an American.

It use to be if you had a promised job, they wouldn’t let you in because you were taking a job from an American; but if you didn't have one you could come in and get one immediately


Well, citizenship or merely a visa to live and work are two different things.

Over here, to become German,
I need sufficient language skills, be self sufficient (I think?)and be here for 8 years or more (7 if I married a German)

Of course, the dutch will revoke my citizenship if I do that,uunless I am married to a German.
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Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:13 am

Ifreann wrote:Imagine concluding that immigration is bad because European colonists went around the world murdering and conquering people.

Well, if they really thought well of the decision to cross national boundaries, why would they feel any need to associate it with murder and conquest, by reminding people that's what many of those who crossed national boundaries did, when there are more positive examples of immigration they could have invoked?

It casts doubt on their sincerity, which on an individual level wouldn't matter, but when so many people invoke the same... it makes one wonder what else they could be disingenuous about.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:16 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:The us is pretty weird, an h1b visa is not really a path to citizenship, but it could be, ( I have 2 friends who went through that). To become a citizen Its either hit the lottery (literally), or marry an American.

It use to be if you had a promised job, they wouldn’t let you in because you were taking a job from an American; but if you didn't have one you could come in and get one immediately


Well, citizenship or merely a visa to live and work are two different things.

Over here, to become German,
I need sufficient language skills, be self sufficient (I think?)and be here for 8 years or more (7 if I married a German)

Of course, the dutch will revoke my citizenship if I do that,uunless I am married to a German.

Big difference, when I was looking at getting a work visa for Sweden it was fairly straightforward, citizenship i didn't look at but was told it was more complicated
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:17 am

Forsher wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Imagine concluding that immigration is bad because European colonists went around the world murdering and conquering people.


It's a coherent claim in NZ.

There's an immigration problem!
Send down some law.
There's still an immigration problem.
Create a legal regime.
The legal regime has a finance problem!
Steal land from the natives and sell it to the immigrants.

Literally nowhere else was colonised like this, though.

So your specific example has nothing to do with my comment about a general conclusion. Cool.
Last edited by Ifreann on Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

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Postby Ifreann » Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:21 am

GuessTheAltAccount wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Imagine concluding that immigration is bad because European colonists went around the world murdering and conquering people.

Well, if they

Who?
Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Mask Wearing That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing
He/Him

You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

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GuessTheAltAccount
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Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:23 am

Ifreann wrote:
GuessTheAltAccount wrote:Well, if they

Who?

People who invoke the talking point referenced in the subjectline, instead of just focusing on more positive stories involving people crossing national boundaries.
Last edited by GuessTheAltAccount on Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Lady Victory wrote:There is no such thing as "Left-wing views" and "Right-wing views" because the "Left" and "Right" are arbitrary designators that really don't apply to anyone who isn't a fanatic extremist. The Left-Center-Right spectrum is virtually useless in gauging political "alignment" and frankly the very concept of a "political alignment" is inanely restrictive and unrealistically purist. Most people simply do not fall into this absurd 'white-grey-black' categorization that the Left-Center-Right spectrum utilizes and the only ones that do neatly fit into these categories are almost always ideologues and radicals of some kind.

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