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256 Gazans killed by unlawful Israeli bombardment

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Greater Cesnica
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256 Gazans killed by unlawful Israeli bombardment

Postby Greater Cesnica » Thu May 13, 2021 9:08 am

Thought this warranted its own thread.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/0 ... sion-gaza/

Archive link so people can read without subscription: https://web.archive.org/web/20210513160 ... sion-gaza/

The Israeli military was drawing up plans to send troops into Gaza on Thursday as it continued to exchange fire with Hamas fighters through the night, while in Israeli cities a fresh wave of riots led to 400 arrests.

The Israeli Defense Forces said it had deployed two infantry units and one armoured unit to the border with Gaza, and that a ground operations plan would be submitted to military chiefs later today, ahead of approval by the Israeli government.

The decision on whether to invade Gaza is up to the Israeli government, rather than the military, and it carries significant political implications for the cabinet as it would substantially increase the risk of far more Israeli casualties.


This would be a catastrophic error of judgement on Israel's part if this plan goes ahead and is put into action. This is essentially the worst thing Israel could do right now. I suspect this even being considered is Netanyahu being desperate to gain the favour of the Israeli right-wing and garner popular support.

It's going to be a clusterfuck if it actually happens, and that UN warning of the potential of a full-scale war will be realized.

Well, that turned out to be bullshit.

Instead, I'll focus this thread's OP on the casualties of civilian targets in the Gaza Strip ongoing Israeli bombardment that I consider to be mass murder. At least 256 Palestinians have been killed in the Gaza Strip since the Israeli bombardment began, including 66 children, 39 women, and 17 elderly people. At least 24 medical facilities have suffered partial or total devastation. In addition, at least 1900 have been injured, per the Palestinian Ministry of Health.
Last edited by Greater Cesnica on Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:47 pm, edited 15 times in total.

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Postby Dowaesk » Thu May 13, 2021 9:11 am

Here we go.
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Postby Major-Tom » Thu May 13, 2021 9:12 am

I guess it is uncertain whether this is indicative of a full-scale ground invasion, but it doesn't look great. Israel has every right to defend itself, but Netanyahu's reckless escalation helps neither Palestinians nor Israelis who are caught in the crossfire.

Serious cynical blunder if true.

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Greater Cesnica
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Thu May 13, 2021 9:14 am

Major-Tom wrote:Israel has every right to defend itself, but Netanyahu's reckless escalation helps neither Palestinians nor Israelis who are caught in the crossfire.

>7 Israelis dead
>93 Palestinians dead

Totally not disproportionate. The ICC has already initiated an investigation into war crimes committed during this episode.

Perhaps Israel shouldn't be forcing people out of their homes in Sheikh Jarrah, or anywhere else in the West Bank and the Golan Heights.
Last edited by Greater Cesnica on Thu May 13, 2021 9:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Major-Tom » Thu May 13, 2021 9:17 am

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Major-Tom wrote:Israel has every right to defend itself, but Netanyahu's reckless escalation helps neither Palestinians nor Israelis who are caught in the crossfire.

>7 Israelis dead
>93 Palestinians dead

Totally not disproportionate. The ICC has already initiated an investigation into war crimes committed during this episode.

Perhaps Israel shouldn't be forcing people out of their homes in Sheikh Jarrah, or anywhere else in the West Bank and the Golan Heights.


Okay, let's try again. I condemned what Israel is doing in terms of a disproportionate response, but also recognized that in any case, Israel should be able to defend itself. For instance, Hamas did attack Israel first, and Israel had the right to respond. What wasn't ethically correct was Netanyahu's decision to seriously escalate the nature of the conflict and to ignore pleas to avoid areas with high numbers of civilians.

I find that if someone such as myself even gives Israel a centimeter of leeway, people are going to jump down your throat without considering anything else you said.

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Greater Cosmicium
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Postby Greater Cosmicium » Thu May 13, 2021 9:20 am

Major-Tom wrote:I guess it is uncertain whether this is indicative of a full-scale ground invasion, but it doesn't look great. Israel has every right to defend itself, but Netanyahu's reckless escalation helps neither Palestinians nor Israelis who are caught in the crossfire.

Serious cynical blunder if true.


Israel was, and is, without exception, the ones stealing land from Palestinians and building settlements for themselves in the stolen land, placing Gaza under a siege in everything but name, beating up and shooting civilians going on with their lives, their atrocities just over the last decade could fill a very bloody book.
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Greater Cesnica
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Thu May 13, 2021 9:23 am

Major-Tom wrote:
Greater Cesnica wrote:>7 Israelis dead
>93 Palestinians dead

Totally not disproportionate. The ICC has already initiated an investigation into war crimes committed during this episode.

Perhaps Israel shouldn't be forcing people out of their homes in Sheikh Jarrah, or anywhere else in the West Bank and the Golan Heights.


Okay, let's try again. I condemned what Israel is doing in terms of a disproportionate response, but also recognized that in any case, Israel should be able to defend itself. For instance, Hamas did attack Israel first, and Israel had the right to respond. What wasn't ethically correct was Netanyahu's decision to seriously escalate the nature of the conflict and to ignore pleas to avoid areas with high numbers of civilians.

I find that if someone such as myself even gives Israel a centimeter of leeway, people are going to jump down your throat without considering anything else you said.

I'm taking the totality of the circumstances into account here. Israel escalated first. Evicting people, attacking those who resisted, besieging Al-Aqsa masjid, brutalizing protestors. Combine that with far-right rallies which mobbed against Arabs with Israeli police and military protection? Hamas was prompted to start firing rockets. No, Hamas shouldn't target civvies. At the same time, it's hard to absolve Israel of responsibility in instigating this latest episode.

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Postby Major-Tom » Thu May 13, 2021 9:26 am

Greater Cosmicium wrote:
Major-Tom wrote:I guess it is uncertain whether this is indicative of a full-scale ground invasion, but it doesn't look great. Israel has every right to defend itself, but Netanyahu's reckless escalation helps neither Palestinians nor Israelis who are caught in the crossfire.

Serious cynical blunder if true.


Israel was, and is, without exception, the ones stealing land from Palestinians and building settlements for themselves in the stolen land, placing Gaza under a siege in everything but name, beating up and shooting civilians going on with their lives, their atrocities just over the last decade could fill a very bloody book.


I think it's more than fair to acknowledge that the Netanyahu government has been especially callous in their Palestinian policy, but that does not;

(A. Void the right of Israel to defend itself in the event of an attack.
(B. Negate the atrocities committed by the de-facto rulers of Gaza, that being Hamas.
(C. Erase the nuances that have plagued this conflict for decades.

Parroting this sort of hyperbole about the conflict just isn't helpful, especially when people are too heated to take even a cursory glance of what I've said, which is that "Israel needs to calm the fuck down" in regards to what they are currently doing. All folks seem to want to take away from that is the small acknowledgement that Israel has a right to exist, to do what sovereign nation-states do.
Last edited by Major-Tom on Thu May 13, 2021 9:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Arisyan » Thu May 13, 2021 9:27 am

Woohoo! More wars and instability in the Middle East lets go.

But seriously. Afghanistan and now this? I wonder who else will go to war this year. My money's on Ethiopia.
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Postby Major-Tom » Thu May 13, 2021 9:35 am

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Major-Tom wrote:
Okay, let's try again. I condemned what Israel is doing in terms of a disproportionate response, but also recognized that in any case, Israel should be able to defend itself. For instance, Hamas did attack Israel first, and Israel had the right to respond. What wasn't ethically correct was Netanyahu's decision to seriously escalate the nature of the conflict and to ignore pleas to avoid areas with high numbers of civilians.

I find that if someone such as myself even gives Israel a centimeter of leeway, people are going to jump down your throat without considering anything else you said.

I'm taking the totality of the circumstances into account here. Israel escalated first. Evicting people, attacking those who resisted, besieging Al-Aqsa masjid, brutalizing protestors. Combine that with far-right rallies which mobbed against Arabs with Israeli police and military protection? Hamas was prompted to start firing rockets. No, Hamas shouldn't target civvies. At the same time, it's hard to absolve Israel of responsibility in instigating this latest episode.


I think it is intellectually dishonest to play down what Hamas has done here. Similarly, if we take into account the totality of circumstances of Hamas's actions, we see a rap sheet miles long, one that fundamentally harms both Israelis and Arabs alike.

I'll keep my mouth shut on the evictions, because frankly, I can see both sides of the issue because the Palestinians who were evicted either had expired leases/did not pay, nor did they own the land, but simultaneously I recognize that the process for these people to obtain property ownership is immensely difficult and marked by major legal barriers. In other words, I'm not so sure evictions were the best process for the Israeli government to take in the first place, especially because they probably understood the blowback.

Either way, firing off rockets into Jerusalem over skirmishes in that city is frankly, indefensible, as are most things that come from the virulently anti-semitic Hamas. I'm not absolving Israel of blame, to be more specific, I'm not absolving the Netanyahu government. But going back to what you said about the "totality of circumstances," it is far too easy and almost lazy to throw the blame almost solely at the feet of the Israelis.
Last edited by Major-Tom on Thu May 13, 2021 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Heaven Hieghts » Thu May 13, 2021 9:37 am

Major-Tom wrote:I guess it is uncertain whether this is indicative of a full-scale ground invasion, but it doesn't look great. Israel has every right to defend itself, but Netanyahu's reckless escalation helps neither Palestinians nor Israelis who are caught in the crossfire.

Serious cynical blunder if true.

Right. What has already happened is a gross disproportionate response but escalating things further will not incur any positive result. I think Netanyahu just wants to send a message that the Palestinians will be crushed over any attempt to assert rights. He's clearly not interested in de-escalation and really obviously does not care about Palestinian civilians.
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Postby The Huskar Social Union » Thu May 13, 2021 9:38 am

Yeah thats all Gaza fucking needs.
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Postby Major-Tom » Thu May 13, 2021 9:39 am

Heaven Hieghts wrote:
Major-Tom wrote:I guess it is uncertain whether this is indicative of a full-scale ground invasion, but it doesn't look great. Israel has every right to defend itself, but Netanyahu's reckless escalation helps neither Palestinians nor Israelis who are caught in the crossfire.

Serious cynical blunder if true.

Right. What has already happened is a gross disproportionate response but escalating things further will not incur any positive result. I think Netanyahu just wants to send a message that the Palestinians will be crushed over any attempt to assert rights. He's clearly not interested in de-escalation and really obviously does not care about Palestinian civilians.


I agree. Unfortunately, I don't think the keys to a new government will be handed over for some time, at which point some irreparable damage might have already been done.

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Postby Unstoppable Empire of Doom » Thu May 13, 2021 9:39 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY

Seriously though. Any respectable military in the past 300 years will already have plans drawn up. It's just a matter of implementing them.
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Thu May 13, 2021 9:39 am

Bad idea on their part. The last invasion of Gaza failed to eliminate Hamas and Iron dome can't protect soldiers from sniper fire in the city streets of the zone. I see that Israeli pride is too strong though for Netanyahu not to throw away the lives of his own troops and thousands of Arabs. Watch, the Gaza invasion will be nothing short of horror. There will be carnage.
Last edited by Borderlands of Rojava on Thu May 13, 2021 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Punished UMN » Thu May 13, 2021 9:40 am

Hopefully the fighters of al-Qassam will make them pay it.
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Thu May 13, 2021 9:41 am

It would serve bibi right if the soldiers he sent in just went AWOL and headed home. Fuck this shit, Gaza doesn't need a war.
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Postby Kowani » Thu May 13, 2021 9:41 am

the fact that we have two different threads for this conflict annoys the hell out of me

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Postby The Central Pacific Free State » Thu May 13, 2021 9:43 am

Israel will crush the rest of the middle east in open war but I hope this is enough for the west to finally break off all support to those warmongers
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Thu May 13, 2021 9:44 am

The Central Pacific Free State wrote:Israel will crush the rest of the middle east in open war but I hope this is enough for the west to finally break off all support to those savages


I highly doubt that. Their last war in Lebanon ended with them coming home to the theme of Curb Your Enthusiasm's end credits. This isn't 1948 anymore. Nobody can beat Israel (due to their nukes) but Israel doesn't win wars like it used to.
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Postby Greater Cosmicium » Thu May 13, 2021 9:48 am

The Central Pacific Free State wrote:Israel will crush the rest of the middle east in open war but I hope this is enough for the west to finally break off all support to those savages


Things have changed somewhat in the last... I dunno 70 or so years Israel has been at war with everyone that isn't itself. Last time they were successful was in 1973, and that was nearly miraculous in itself, and basically only involved it and Egypt. Today the Arab nations (hell, even just the same Egpyt that Israel beat in 1967 and 1973) would crush Israel in a theoretical war (if Israel doesn't get an itchy nuclear trigger finger of course), and because of how Israel has been treating Palestinians recently...
Last edited by Greater Cosmicium on Thu May 13, 2021 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Heaven Hieghts » Thu May 13, 2021 9:51 am

Major-Tom wrote:
Greater Cosmicium wrote:
Israel was, and is, without exception, the ones stealing land from Palestinians and building settlements for themselves in the stolen land, placing Gaza under a siege in everything but name, beating up and shooting civilians going on with their lives, their atrocities just over the last decade could fill a very bloody book.


I think it's more than fair to acknowledge that the Netanyahu government has been especially callous in their Palestinian policy, but that does not;

(A. Void the right of Israel to defend itself in the event of an attack.
(B. Negate the atrocities committed by the de-facto rulers of Gaza, that being Hamas.
(C. Erase the nuances that have plagued this conflict for decades.

Parroting this sort of hyperbole about the conflict just isn't helpful, especially when people are too heated to take even a cursory glance of what I've said, which is that "Israel needs to calm the fuck down" in regards to what they are currently doing. All folks seem to want to take away from that is the small acknowledgement that Israel has a right to exist, to do what sovereign nation-states do.


A sticking point I find with this is one that I also took with police brutality during the protests last summer in the states, which is you can criticize misconduct from both sides and be right, but you have reckon with who has the most power at the end of the day. Israel has the choice not to escalate, but they continue to to what seems to me approaching an extreme. A man was shot at a checkpoint for merely opening his door yesterday and other reported being at gun point for the slightest movement. There is no recourse for Palestinians and no one can scarcely blame them for decades worth of frustration.
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Greater Cosmicium
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Postby Greater Cosmicium » Thu May 13, 2021 10:04 am


Yup, it's pretty much confirmed, Israel really is preparing for an invasion. Contrast: during the rise of tensions on the Ukraine-Russia border, the two countries only moved active soldiers and equipment to the border.
You don't mobilize reservists for "peacekeeping" reasons.
Last edited by Greater Cosmicium on Thu May 13, 2021 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Huskar Social Union » Thu May 13, 2021 10:10 am

Greater Cosmicium wrote:

Yup, it's pretty much confirmed, Israel really is preparing for an invasion. Contrast: during the rise of tensions on the Ukraine-Russia border, the two countries only moved active soldiers and equipment to the border.
You don't mobilize reservists for "peacekeeping" reasons.

Wonder how many people are going to be dead by the end of this one.
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