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Re: Third World Olympic Power?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Would you support the sports initiative?

Yes
10
53%
No
9
47%
 
Total votes : 19

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Infected Mushroom
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Re: Third World Olympic Power?

Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu May 13, 2021 5:30 am

Please consider the following hypothetical:

You are the authoritarian ruler of a developing country. The country has a very strong military but in other regards, it lags behind the industrialised world.

Your advisor tells you that it might be a good idea to invest in a few sports to create better PR for your people, ideology, and regime. They suggest that you spend considerable state resources to find, promote, and develop talent in a few strategic sports (ones that are a good fit for the culture and aren't yet dominated by the First World). Even though you don't have as much money as more powerful countries, you could devote a greater percentage of the national budget to the effort and start from the really really young. Also, you would have significant cultural advantages (ex the ability to push athletes really really hard) and with the tools of your authoritarian system you could drastically restructure huge aspects of society to promote these goals without much effective backlash or anyone to veto. All the while, this could create a vehicle for nationalism and patriotism and to show the world that your system has something to offer.

It's expected that if you make enough of an effort, within two Olympic Games and perhaps even sooner at regional and international tournaments of a smaller scale, your nation could start making big splashes. As of now, the other countries of the world are distracted by other things.

So what do you say?

Would you invest in this Olympic Endeavour? Or does this sound like a folly? Keep in mind that efforts to industrialise the country and fix social issues are not mutually exclusive to this option. Please justify.

Yes. This sounds like the way to go. This has worked in the past... I'm thinking of Egypt with their squash superpower status. In the past, even second-rate powers like East Germany have been able to use the Olympics as a major vehicle to excel with. I like the idea of an authoritarian government supporting and promoting athletic excellence; and even if it ends up failing, you've successfully nurtured some kind of national talent and that's worth something. Since it's no longer feasible to start wars in most cases, promoting sports is a great way to keep the people united. Of course, I would pursue this option in tandem with efforts to improve living conditions in the country.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Thu May 13, 2021 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Thu May 13, 2021 5:35 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:Please consider the following hypothetical:

You are the authoritarian ruler of a developing country. The country has a very strong military but in other regards, it lags behind the industrialised world.

This is not possible.
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You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Thu May 13, 2021 5:41 am

Ifreann wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:Please consider the following hypothetical:

You are the authoritarian ruler of a developing country. The country has a very strong military but in other regards, it lags behind the industrialised world.

This is not possible.


Best korea?

And we shall take our rightful place as best Curling nation ever

FUCK YOU CANADA
Last edited by Ethel mermania on Thu May 13, 2021 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Picairn
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Postby Picairn » Thu May 13, 2021 5:47 am

Sport? Why would I invest in sport? Stadiums are a giant waste of money. I would rather put my money on industrialization, mass production and gradual liberalization of the economy to significantly enrich my nation.
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The Free Joy State
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Postby The Free Joy State » Thu May 13, 2021 6:07 am

Picairn wrote:Sport? Why would I invest in sport? Stadiums are a giant waste of money. I would rather put my money on industrialization, mass production and gradual liberalization of the economy to significantly enrich my nation.

Apparently, the hypothetical concerns an authoritarian leader.

Authoritarian leaders have historically shown themselves to be more concerned with appearance than competence.

It is entirely realistic for an authoritarian leader to waste their money on something like this, and build up a huge military, while letting their people suffer. Just look at North Korea (known for huge military parades and a starving populace).

Now, I wouldn't waste my money on anything like this. As you say, it's a waste of money.

But I would also never be an authoritarian leader, so this hypothetical isn't asking what I would do.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Thu May 13, 2021 6:17 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Caliland
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Postby Caliland » Thu May 13, 2021 6:16 am

It’s basically what authoritarian countries already do with the military, so yes.
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Infected Mushroom
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu May 13, 2021 9:33 am

Picairn wrote:Sport? Why would I invest in sport? Stadiums are a giant waste of money. I would rather put my money on industrialization, mass production and gradual liberalization of the economy to significantly enrich my nation.


The two are not mutually exclusive though

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Thu May 13, 2021 9:42 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Picairn wrote:Sport? Why would I invest in sport? Stadiums are a giant waste of money. I would rather put my money on industrialization, mass production and gradual liberalization of the economy to significantly enrich my nation.


The two are not mutually exclusive though

So this imaginary poor country has more than enough money for a military, and can afford to industrialise, invest in mass production, and also build stadia and invest in athletics programs.

So what you're saying is that this country is actually very rich.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Mask Wearing That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing
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You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

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Infected Mushroom
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu May 13, 2021 10:16 am

Ifreann wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
The two are not mutually exclusive though

So this imaginary poor country has more than enough money for a military, and can afford to industrialise, invest in mass production, and also build stadia and invest in athletics programs.

So what you're saying is that this country is actually very rich.


No just that it's not an all or nothing proposition. You can outspend other countries in sports while still having money for other objectives etc

It doesn't have to be 100% sports or 100% industrialisation/social programs/reforms. It's not all in one direction you know?
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Thu May 13, 2021 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Samudera Darussalam
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Postby Samudera Darussalam » Thu May 13, 2021 7:02 pm

If I were a dictator in this hypothetical country, I'd choose industrialization and fix social issues. For me, excellence in sports is not a priority when my country have other, more real issues to deal with.

Not that I won't have athletes go without preparation either, but it is not a priority.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Thu May 13, 2021 7:53 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Ifreann wrote:So this imaginary poor country has more than enough money for a military, and can afford to industrialise, invest in mass production, and also build stadia and invest in athletics programs.

So what you're saying is that this country is actually very rich.


No just that it's not an all or nothing proposition. You can outspend other countries in sports while still having money for other objectives etc

It doesn't have to be 100% sports or 100% industrialisation/social programs/reforms. It's not all in one direction you know?

The point is that this allegedly developing country must necessarily be very rich to be able to afford these things. Which is to say, it is not a developing country at all, it's necessarily a wealthy developed nation.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Mask Wearing That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing
He/Him

You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

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Mercatus
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Postby Mercatus » Thu May 13, 2021 8:07 pm

Wait a minute, someone put me of all people in charge of a country? They expect me to actually run it?

If I dictate everything, I can organize the dissolution of that country and let the private sector fund sports.
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Infected Mushroom
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Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu May 13, 2021 8:19 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
No just that it's not an all or nothing proposition. You can outspend other countries in sports while still having money for other objectives etc

It doesn't have to be 100% sports or 100% industrialisation/social programs/reforms. It's not all in one direction you know?

The point is that this allegedly developing country must necessarily be very rich to be able to afford these things. Which is to say, it is not a developing country at all, it's necessarily a wealthy developed nation.


I was thinking along the lines of East Germany, Egypt, North Korea, Chiang Kai Shek era Taiwan etc

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The Free Joy State
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Postby The Free Joy State » Thu May 13, 2021 8:43 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Ifreann wrote:The point is that this allegedly developing country must necessarily be very rich to be able to afford these things. Which is to say, it is not a developing country at all, it's necessarily a wealthy developed nation.


I was thinking along the lines of East Germany, Egypt, North Korea, Chiang Kai Shek era Taiwan etc

North Korea, which is on the brink of famine and which is sidelining economic development to build more weapons? North Korea that does entirely prioritise how they look in the eyes of the world while actively letting their people starve?

Yes, the Olympics is entirely the kind of wasteful, unnecessary extravagance such a government would waste their money on... while not having any money for social programmes.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Thu May 13, 2021 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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-Ocelot-
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Postby -Ocelot- » Fri May 14, 2021 4:47 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:Please consider the following hypothetical:

You are the authoritarian ruler of a developing country. The country has a very strong military but in other regards, it lags behind the industrialised world.
[/spoiler]


Just say China

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The Huskar Social Union
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Postby The Huskar Social Union » Fri May 14, 2021 4:50 am

Oh boy we are in charge of an authoritarian regime, crikey what a spanner to throw in the works, i didnt see that one coming

And it has a very strong military despite being really industrially poor compared to everywhere else thats something.


Anyway what Iffy said
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Fri May 14, 2021 5:23 am

The Huskar Social Union wrote:Oh boy we are in charge of an authoritarian regime, crikey what a spanner to throw in the works, i didnt see that one coming

And it has a very strong military despite being really industrially poor compared to everywhere else thats something.


Anyway what Iffy said

Agriculture $5,000
Education $6,000
Healthcare $4,500
Defence $10,000,000,000,000
Athletics $150

Someone who is good at economics please help me win the Olympics, my authoritarian regime has no prestige.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Mask Wearing That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing
He/Him

You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

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The Holy Therns
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Postby The Holy Therns » Fri May 14, 2021 5:42 am

Ifreann wrote:
The Huskar Social Union wrote:Oh boy we are in charge of an authoritarian regime, crikey what a spanner to throw in the works, i didnt see that one coming

And it has a very strong military despite being really industrially poor compared to everywhere else thats something.


Anyway what Iffy said

Agriculture $5,000
Education $6,000
Healthcare $4,500
Defence $10,000,000,000,000
Athletics $150

Someone who is good at economics please help me win the Olympics, my authoritarian regime has no prestige.


Sell some honor!
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New haven america
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Postby New haven america » Fri May 14, 2021 5:43 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Ifreann wrote:The point is that this allegedly developing country must necessarily be very rich to be able to afford these things. Which is to say, it is not a developing country at all, it's necessarily a wealthy developed nation.


I was thinking along the lines of East Germany, Egypt, North Korea, Chiang Kai Shek era Taiwan etc

East Germany was many things and militarily powerful was not one of them (No Warsaw Pact country except the USSR could really be considered such), Egypt is the richest country in Africa, and North Korea's military requires taking most of the country's money while still producing piss poor results.
Last edited by New haven america on Fri May 14, 2021 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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New haven america
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Postby New haven america » Fri May 14, 2021 5:44 am

Ifreann wrote:
The Huskar Social Union wrote:Oh boy we are in charge of an authoritarian regime, crikey what a spanner to throw in the works, i didnt see that one coming

And it has a very strong military despite being really industrially poor compared to everywhere else thats something.


Anyway what Iffy said

Agriculture $5,000
Education $6,000
Healthcare $4,500
Defence $10,000,000,000,000
Athletics $150

Someone who is good at economics please help me win the Olympics, my authoritarian regime has no prestige.

Iffy, be real here.

Do the masses really need healthcare?
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Ifreann
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Fri May 14, 2021 6:01 am

New haven america wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Agriculture $5,000
Education $6,000
Healthcare $4,500
Defence $10,000,000,000,000
Athletics $150

Someone who is good at economics please help me win the Olympics, my authoritarian regime has no prestige.

Iffy, be real here.

Do the masses really need healthcare?

Smart.

Defence $10,000,000,004,500
Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Mask Wearing That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing
He/Him

You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

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British West Zuzunia
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Postby British West Zuzunia » Fri May 14, 2021 10:29 am

The Holy Therns wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Agriculture $5,000
Education $6,000
Healthcare $4,500
Defence $10,000,000,000,000
Athletics $150

Someone who is good at economics please help me win the Olympics, my authoritarian regime has no prestige.


Sell some honor!

But we already have an honor deficit! I made my sister's husband's brother a general to ensure his loyalty, and he led his unwilling conscript troops valiant force of volunteers cunningly into a swamp to cover their retreat, whereupon they were all courageously eaten by crocodiles, so we have to slaughter a bunch of dumb animals to restore our honor. At least now I have a job for my wife's second cousin!


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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Fri May 14, 2021 1:44 pm

The Holy Therns wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Agriculture $5,000
Education $6,000
Healthcare $4,500
Defence $10,000,000,000,000
Athletics $150

Someone who is good at economics please help me win the Olympics, my authoritarian regime has no prestige.


Sell some honor!

Is it stolen valour if the government officially sells it?
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Dakini
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Postby Dakini » Fri May 14, 2021 1:50 pm

Picairn wrote:Sport? Why would I invest in sport? Stadiums are a giant waste of money. I would rather put my money on industrialization, mass production and gradual liberalization of the economy to significantly enrich my nation.

Not every sport requires a stadium. Some really don't fit into a stadium (e.g. marathoms, triathalons, skiing (or any sport that involves going down a mountain, surfing can't happen in a stadium)) and others don't really need them (e.g. swimming or diving require a pool, which doesn't need to have spectators, track and field events require a field, gymnastics requires a few pieces of specialised equipment and mats, basketball just need a gym).


That said, I don't think it's possible to develop a sports program in four or even eight years. Even if you're able to poach the best coaches from other countries (you probably can't), you're probably going to need to be encouraging children to do a particular sport from a young age so that would take probably more like 20+ years. Which sport would depend on climate and the facilities you have available and which sports are already popular in the country.

edit to add: another option is to try to poach athletes from other countries, either by accepting them as refugees or giving them some special fast track to citizenship. You'd have to give them some coaching to keep them on top of their game, but someone else would have done most of the training.
Last edited by Dakini on Fri May 14, 2021 1:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Diarcesia
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Postby Diarcesia » Fri May 14, 2021 2:40 pm

Picairn wrote:Sport? Why would I invest in sport? Stadiums are a giant waste of money. I would rather put my money on industrialization, mass production and gradual liberalization of the economy to significantly enrich my nation.

Bread and circuses

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