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Child support law; an outlier in liberal ideology?

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Child support law; an outlier in liberal ideology?

Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:08 pm

This has been on my mind for a while now, but the conversation lately around student loan debt has brought the issue front and center of mind. I've always considered myself centre-left; I vote leftist candidates based on most issues; I say this not to conform to the echo chamber but to make any who might be about to jump the gun from the subjectline take a step back and ask themselves what else they could be wrong about; but some issues I'm at odds with them on and this one stands out to me.

I vaguely recall a few years ago, on NSG, someone made the case that with child support law, as it currently stands, there is nothing stopping a woman from claiming before sex; whether honestly or otherwise; that she had no intention of keeping the baby if the condom broke, and/or that if she did, she wouldn't mind if he had no part in raising it; deciding nonetheless to go after him for child support payments anyway, even if doing so would require him to drop out of school. What he had reason to believe would be a mutual act of pleasure would ruin not only his life, but prevent him from contributing to society in ways he needed to go to college to do. Government welfare for her could lift her out of poverty; making him pay up from the very first year would just pull him in too.

The response was "vasectomy or don't fuck." You know, because every jurisdiction just gives teenagers vasectomies willy-nilly.

On the matter of student loan debt, many on the left don't just support its cancellation, they almost come across as feeling entitled to have it cancelled, if the demonization of dissenters on the matter is anything to go by. I don't think the converse is as hypocritical; I can see student debt as an incentive, be it too cruel of one or not, to study something more practical like engineering instead of something less practical like literature; but what does child support law incentivize? Abstinence? Then why is virginity so often used as an insult by some of the same people who approve of the status quo on child support law? Condom use? Then why does child support law not have the government pick up the tab for, let's say, the first 4 years so he can finish college, if he used a condom? I mean, you could have him owe 4 years' back pay after he finishes college and gets a job, and that would still arguably be more analogous to student loans than to the cancellation thereof. But with student loans, at least the guy gets to finish college. If he has to drop out to pay child support, he doesn't.

On the matter of abortion, many who don't support criminalizing it (to hell with phrases like "pro-choice" OR "anti-life"; supporters of either label have a history of guessing wrong about my opinions on the matter) aren't content to say the fetus is insentient in the first and second trimester, and often a potential health hazard in the 3rd; that alone is a pretty good argument, and would end in a vote for legal abortion from me if a referendum were held tomorrow, regardless of its unintended side-effect in making it unprosecutable to get drunk while pregnant. But they aren't content with that. They make it out to be "hypocritical" to want to criminalize abortion without making having children more affordable, as if A, those criminalizing it were a majority of voters (they aren't, so we'll never know what those voters would do about the unaffordability of parenting if they were numerous enough to call the shots) or B, the voting public as a whole didn't have a history of using criminalization in lieu of addressing the root causes of crime (brutal policing and incarceration instead of Scandinavia-style policies helping the poor, etc...) without any of the motives attributed to those who would criminalize abortion (supposed envy at others' sex lives, supposed desire to make women date rich men instead of otherwise-desirable poor men, etc...) applying to... any of the other issues on which they rely on deterrence instead.

And really, if the "vasectomy or don't fuck" crowd got their way; what would that look like? Would it look like abstinence in one's teen years, except among those wealthy enough they could afford the consequences? Wouldn't that render virginity a rather poor metric of undesirability, reflecting poorly on the judgment of anyone who would have ever used it as a cheap shot?

Would it look like teenagers getting vasectomies en masse? Obviously you'd need mandatory paternity tests at birth to find out if these people practiced what they preached, but if they did, how would all the women who want babies later in life make them? Taking turns getting pregnant off the richest guys in town? Wouldn't that be a de facto form of eugenics in favour of the wealthy?

Or was "vasectomy or don't fuck" just a disingenuous attempt to dodge the issue, making them the kind of hypocrites they accuse those who would criminalize abortion of being?
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Postby Nilokeras » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:31 pm

It's amazing, I can actually feel the neurons in my prefrontal cortex dying as they try to parse this disjointed muddle. What exactly is the point of this other than as a vehicle to deliver potshots against 'the left' about student loans and some strange misogynist ideas about sexual politics?

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Postby Lady Victory » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:46 pm

Nilokeras wrote:It's amazing, I can actually feel the neurons in my prefrontal cortex dying as they try to parse this disjointed muddle. What exactly is the point of this other than as a vehicle to deliver potshots against 'the left' about student loans and some strange misogynist ideas about sexual politics?


I believe what he's trying to get at is that men shouldn't have to pay child support if they don't want anything to do with the kid.

Why he didn't just say that, I've no idea.
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Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:02 pm

Lady Victory wrote:
Nilokeras wrote:It's amazing, I can actually feel the neurons in my prefrontal cortex dying as they try to parse this disjointed muddle. What exactly is the point of this other than as a vehicle to deliver potshots against 'the left' about student loans and some strange misogynist ideas about sexual politics?


I believe what he's trying to get at is that men shouldn't have to pay child support if they don't want anything to do with the kid.

Why he didn't just say that, I've no idea.

Because it's not what I was saying?

I specifically referred to situations where having to pay right away would throw him into poverty, like if he has to drop out of college or something. I specifically mentioned, within the OP, the idea of having them pay back what they owe once they're back on their feet.

But at least now I know you're not above putting words in people's mouths.
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Postby Lady Victory » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:04 pm

GuessTheAltAccount wrote:
Lady Victory wrote:
I believe what he's trying to get at is that men shouldn't have to pay child support if they don't want anything to do with the kid.

Why he didn't just say that, I've no idea.

Because it's not what I was saying?

I specifically referred to situations where having to pay right away would throw him into poverty, like if he has to drop out of college or something. I specifically mentioned, within the OP, the idea of having them pay back what they owe once they're back on their feet.

But at least now I know you're not above putting words in people's mouths.


I have to put words in your mouth, because otherwise I have no idea what the fuck you're trying to say. And apparently neither does anyone else.
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Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:12 pm

Lady Victory wrote:I have to put words in your mouth, because otherwise I have no idea what the fuck you're trying to say.

That's not how logic works. That's what follow-up questions are for.

Suppose I claimed to think you were accusing invisible dragons of snorting cocaine. Would it be okay to say I could make up a placeholder if I "didn't know" what you were trying to say? If not, what basis is there, if any, for your placeholder, and why should I take someone who misrepresented what I was saying at their word on it?


Lady Victory wrote:And apparently neither does anyone else.

Either that or they don't want to admit to holding unpopular opinions on child support but can't bring themselves to defend the status quo either.
Last edited by GuessTheAltAccount on Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sparanoda » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:16 pm

Lady Victory wrote:
GuessTheAltAccount wrote:Because it's not what I was saying?

I specifically referred to situations where having to pay right away would throw him into poverty, like if he has to drop out of college or something. I specifically mentioned, within the OP, the idea of having them pay back what they owe once they're back on their feet.

But at least now I know you're not above putting words in people's mouths.


I have to put words in your mouth, because otherwise I have no idea what the fuck you're trying to say. And apparently neither does anyone else.

I understood it. It makes sense. Not sure where some of you are getting "potshots at the left" from. Still, it seems like there were a few different points put together, making it a bit confusing, but there is no need to strawman their argument and dismiss it by essentially saying they are strawman-ing. That's rude and shameful, honestly.
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Postby Lady Victory » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:20 pm

GuessTheAltAccount wrote:
Lady Victory wrote:I have to put words in your mouth, because otherwise I have no idea what the fuck you're trying to say.

That's not how logic works. That's what follow-up questions are for.

Suppose I claimed to think you were accusing invisible dragons of snorting cocaine. Would it be okay to say I could make up a placeholder if I "didn't know" what you were trying to say? If not, what basis is there, if any, for your placeholder, and why should I take someone who misrepresented what I was saying at their word on it?


Lady Victory wrote:And apparently neither does anyone else.

Either that or they don't want to admit to holding unpopular opinions on child support but can't bring themselves to defend the status quo either.


Tbh if you claimed to think I was accusing invisible dragons of snorting cocaine I'd probably ask how high you were and on what.

Sparanoda wrote:
Lady Victory wrote:
I have to put words in your mouth, because otherwise I have no idea what the fuck you're trying to say. And apparently neither does anyone else.

I understood it. It makes sense. Not sure where some of you are getting "potshots at the left" from. Still, it seems like there were a few different points put together, making it a bit confusing, but there is no need to strawman their argument and dismiss it by essentially saying they are strawman-ing. That's rude and shameful, honestly.


That's not at all what I was doing. I misinterpreted what he was saying, is all. Which is considerably easy giving how poorly worded the OP is and confusing it is to follow. I haven't "strawmanned" anyone; that was Nilokeras, not me.
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Postby Nilokeras » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:21 pm

Sparanoda wrote:
Lady Victory wrote:
I have to put words in your mouth, because otherwise I have no idea what the fuck you're trying to say. And apparently neither does anyone else.

I understood it. It makes sense. Not sure where some of you are getting "potshots at the left" from. Still, it seems like there were a few different points put together, making it a bit confusing, but there is no need to strawman their argument and dismiss it by essentially saying they are strawman-ing. That's rude and shameful, honestly.


What is the bizarre side note about student loan forgiveness and calling the left 'entitled' to it if not a potshot? Besides which it is certainly not strawmanning to crook an eyebrow at the strange sexual politics on display alongside the coy hinting at their real politics, which is almost certainly some tedious men's rights variant. This kind of 'just asking questions' framing is typical of it.
Last edited by Nilokeras on Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:23 pm

Lady Victory wrote:That's not at all what I was doing. I misinterpreted what he was saying, is all.

No. Excuses.

Anyone can strawman someone and then claim misunderstanding. If you're not sure what someone's saying, you ask. That's it.


Lady Victory wrote:Which is considerably easy giving how poorly worded the OP is and confusing it is to follow.

Tell me where in the post you got lost, then.
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Postby Lady Victory » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:31 pm

GuessTheAltAccount wrote:
Lady Victory wrote:That's not at all what I was doing. I misinterpreted what he was saying, is all.

No. Excuses.

Anyone can strawman someone and then claim misunderstanding. If you're not sure what someone's saying, you ask. That's it.


Lady Victory wrote:Which is considerably easy giving how poorly worded the OP is and confusing it is to follow.

Tell me where in the post you got lost, then.


Literally all of it. It's completely incohesive and just trails off into barely related topics of discussion using hamfisted anecdotes and cheap jabs at Leftists.

I genuinely couldn't understand what you were trying to discuss, and made an assumption out of ignorant. Accuse me of "strawmanning" all you like; that's not what happened, and I don't know why you're making a big deal out of this.
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Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:36 pm

Nilokeras wrote:
Sparanoda wrote:I understood it. It makes sense. Not sure where some of you are getting "potshots at the left" from. Still, it seems like there were a few different points put together, making it a bit confusing, but there is no need to strawman their argument and dismiss it by essentially saying they are strawman-ing. That's rude and shameful, honestly.


What is the bizarre side note about student loan forgiveness and calling the left 'entitled' to it if not a potshot?

My point is the apparent contradiction in their worldview. The sense of entitlement to having the taxpayers pay for their student loans even though they would never approve of spending their own on covering a few years' worth of child support bills so some other guy doesn't have to drop out for taking the exact same risk they did.
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Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:54 pm

Lady Victory wrote:Literally all of it. It's completely incohesive and just trails off into barely related topics of discussion using hamfisted anecdotes and cheap jabs at Leftists.

I'm pointing out the contradiction between leaving teenagers dropping out of school and ending up poor if his girlfriend keeps the baby and goes after him for child support, vs. supposedly valuing both the right to have children if you eventually want them without being throwing into poverty in doing so and the right to go to college. Look at the OP with that lens and it might become clearer.


Lady Victory wrote:I genuinely couldn't understand what you were trying to discuss, and made an assumption out of ignorant. Accuse me of "strawmanning" all you like; that's not what happened, and I don't know why you're making a big deal out of this.

Because if it WAS on purpose and I give you the benefit of a doubt TOO easily, there's nothing to stop you from doing it again.
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Postby Nilokeras » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:57 pm

GuessTheAltAccount wrote:
Nilokeras wrote:
What is the bizarre side note about student loan forgiveness and calling the left 'entitled' to it if not a potshot?

My point is the apparent contradiction in their worldview. The sense of entitlement to having the taxpayers pay for their student loans even though they would never approve of spending their own on covering a few years' worth of child support bills so some other guy doesn't have to drop out for taking the exact same risk they did.


So much to unpack here, from the interesting proposition that leftists are not or will not be taxpayers, to the curious idea that people on the left would somehow not be in favour of some sort of universal childcare supports provided by the state.

Doubly curious that the criticism seems more aimed at the liberal and left-centrist position of using the state to enforce individual responsibility, considering you profess to be 'centre left'.

Almost as though there's more at play here behind the cutesy alt profile name and coyness about your beliefs, and maybe you don't actually identify with the 'centre left' in your heart of hearts.

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Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:07 pm

Nilokeras wrote:So much to unpack here, from the interesting proposition that leftists are not or will not be taxpayers

False. The phrase "their own" in the very post you're quoting is said in the context of tax dollars. As in, "their own tax dollars." That follows directly from the rules of grammar.


Nilokeras wrote:to the curious idea that people on the left would somehow not be in favour of some sort of universal childcare supports provided by the state.

A plurality of voters made abortion legal, but universal childcare supports not provided. A plurality of voters have left it up to fathers, including those who cannot yet afford children, to contribute an amount that doesn't bring the kid and mother out of poverty, just him in with them. They wouldn't have been able to do that without at least SOME overlap with supporters of the right to a legal abortion, be they liberals or libertarians.


Nilokeras wrote:Doubly curious that the criticism seems more aimed at the liberal and left-centrist position of using the state to enforce individual responsibility, considering you profess to be 'centre left'.

Almost as though there's more at play here behind the cutesy alt profile name and coyness about your beliefs, and maybe you don't actually identify with the 'centre left' in your heart of hearts.

Believe whatever you want. The point isn't about conforming to the echo chamber. The point is about noticing a glaring blind spot in a group I find myself otherwise agreeing with.
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Postby Odreria » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:11 pm

bro what are you talking about
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Postby Nilokeras » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:19 pm

GuessTheAltAccount wrote:A plurality of voters made abortion legal, but universal childcare supports not provided. A plurality of voters have left it up to fathers, including those who cannot yet afford children, to contribute an amount that doesn't bring the kid and mother out of poverty, just him in with them.


Ah see now we've begun to retreat - now it's 'the voters' who are getting blamed for the liberal position of legally-enforced personal responsibility, not 'the left'.

GuessTheAltAccount wrote:They wouldn't have been able to do that without at least SOME overlap with supporters of the right to a legal abortion, be they liberals or libertarians.


Is it supposed to be some major revelation that people with an individualistic political worldview consider reproductive rights and the state's responsibility towards children in individualistic terms?

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Postby Darle Barrroda » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:20 pm

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Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:25 pm

Nilokeras wrote:
GuessTheAltAccount wrote:A plurality of voters made abortion legal, but universal childcare supports not provided. A plurality of voters have left it up to fathers, including those who cannot yet afford children, to contribute an amount that doesn't bring the kid and mother out of poverty, just him in with them.


Ah see now we've begun to retreat - now it's 'the voters' who are getting blamed for the liberal position of legally-enforced personal responsibility, not 'the left'.

Is it supposed to be some major revelation that people with an individualistic political worldview consider reproductive rights and the state's responsibility towards children in individualistic terms?

Votes for libertarian candidates are in single digit percentages in election after election. Not enough to be pivotal. That suggests at least a few liberal voters played a vital role in the status quo that forces fathers into poverty for taking the same risk everyone else did, while sympathizing more with mothers who took that same risk.

So no, you didn't really spot any real backpedalling. Nice try, though.
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Postby Sparanoda » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:29 pm

Lady Victory wrote:
Sparanoda wrote:I understood it. It makes sense. Not sure where some of you are getting "potshots at the left" from. Still, it seems like there were a few different points put together, making it a bit confusing, but there is no need to strawman their argument and dismiss it by essentially saying they are strawman-ing. That's rude and shameful, honestly.


That's not at all what I was doing. I misinterpreted what he was saying, is all. Which is considerably easy giving how poorly worded the OP is and confusing it is to follow. I haven't "strawmanned" anyone; that was Nilokeras, not me.

My bad; I know you weren't the one with the strawman argument. I was talking about Nilokeras for that second part. I should've made that clear. Sorry.
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Postby Nilokeras » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:29 pm

GuessTheAltAccount wrote:
Nilokeras wrote:
Ah see now we've begun to retreat - now it's 'the voters' who are getting blamed for the liberal position of legally-enforced personal responsibility, not 'the left'.

Is it supposed to be some major revelation that people with an individualistic political worldview consider reproductive rights and the state's responsibility towards children in individualistic terms?

Votes for libertarian candidates are in single digit percentages in election after election. Not enough to be pivotal. That suggests at least a few liberal voters played a vital role in the status quo that forces fathers into poverty for taking the same risk everyone else did, while sympathizing more with mothers who took that same risk.

So no, you didn't really spot any real backpedalling. Nice try, though.


Liberals are only 'leftists' if you position yourself to their right - which again, is a very strange thing for someone who professes to be on the 'centre left' (and therefore likely among those liberals) to do.

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Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:37 pm

Nilokeras wrote:
GuessTheAltAccount wrote:Votes for libertarian candidates are in single digit percentages in election after election. Not enough to be pivotal. That suggests at least a few liberal voters played a vital role in the status quo that forces fathers into poverty for taking the same risk everyone else did, while sympathizing more with mothers who took that same risk.

So no, you didn't really spot any real backpedalling. Nice try, though.


Liberals are only 'leftists' if you position yourself to their right - which again, is a very strange thing for someone who professes to be on the 'centre left' (and therefore likely among those liberals) to do.

In the original sense; as defined by the French Parliament; less traditionalist than the average person; it applies to me. Maybe following other non-traditionalists lockstep doesn't follow from it.

Which leaves the question of why a plurality of voters has a blind spot on this issue. Why if they make it out to be hypocritical to criminalize abortion without making motherhood affordable do they not make it out to be hypocritical to criminalize deadbeat dads without making fatherhood affordable, or at least covering the bill until he's back on his feet?
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Postby Nilokeras » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:43 pm

GuessTheAltAccount wrote:In the original sense; as defined by the French Parliament; less traditionalist than the average person; it applies to me. Maybe following other non-traditionalists lockstep doesn't follow from it.


Ah now we're retreating into the word salad of the OP. What does this even mean? Some sort of wishy-washy attempt to wave away the positioning of different politics because things are not the same as in the National Assembly?

GuessTheAltAccount wrote:Which leaves the question of why a plurality of voters has a blind spot on this issue. Why if they make it out to be hypocritical to criminalize abortion without making motherhood affordable do they not make it out to be hypocritical to criminalize deadbeat dads without making fatherhood affordable, or at least covering the bill until he's back on his feet?


Why do liberals put in laws to require people to have health insurance in the US but not do very much at all to make that insurance affordable?
Last edited by Nilokeras on Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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