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[DRAFT] Repeal: Condemn the Pacific

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Fauxia
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[DRAFT] Repeal: Condemn the Pacific

Postby Fauxia » Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:57 am

So I haven't written anything in a while, and this could be a dumpster fire and everyone hates it, but I think it deserves some attention. Feel free to tar-and-feather, it's not my first rodeo here.

Security Council Resolution #268 “Condemn The Pacific” shall be struck out and rendered null and void.

The Security Council,

Celebrating its own power and unique ability to encourage reform in regions subject to its most severe and overbearing condemnations,

Acknowledging the past crimes of The Pacific, also referred to as the New Pacific Order (NPO), as inscribed by SC #268,

Understanding that said violations of international standards are not to be taken lightly,

Observing, however, that the nations primarily responsible for the NPO’s duplicitous machinations have been removed from positions of power or have departed from the region altogether, including former Emperor Aleisyr and former Consul Pergamon,

Noting that the current generation of Pacifican leaders, such as Xoriet (a nation commended by this very Council in SC #266) and The Seeker of Power, do not share the former leadership’s aims of strife and conquest,

Gratified by the Pacific’s reforms, including:
  • The abandonment of Francoism, the former state ideology that pitted nations in Feeder and Sinker regions against other nations. As the ideology was used as justification for destabilization projects, most notably in Lazarus, this move signaled a modern and more amicable era for the NPO,
  • The termination of its controversial "protectorship" of St Abbaddon, removing its previously-imposed roadblock to the growth of the native community of an ancient and storied region,
  • Changes to the government structure, including the creation of a new charter and the addition of an elected Senator position. Though by no means did the reforms make the Pacific a democratic region, the changes further empowered the citizens and created added oversight on the region that would formerly have been unthinkable.

Recognizing that the world has moved on from The NPO’s former pariah status, as most of the feeder and sinker regions have renormalized relations with the Pacific following its previous diplomatic isolation,

Considering that much of the evidence used against the Pacific in Lazarus, though damning in some ways, was incomplete and framed in large part by individuals biased against it, and that the NPO’s motives may have been far less malicious than was previously understood,

Reserving the right to condemn the NPO once again should it relapse into its old imperialist ways,

Believing, nonetheless, that the Pacific’s redemption deserves to continue without the colossal shadow of condemnation hanging above it,

Hereby repeals SC #268 "Condemn the Pacific".


Blah blah blah, suggestions welcome, peanut gallery open.
Last edited by Fauxia on Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Warzone Codger » Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:23 am

Considering that much of the evidence used against the Pacific in Lazarus, though damning in some ways, was incomplete and framed in large part by individuals biased against it, and that the NPO’s motives may have been far less malicious than was previously understood,


Could you clarify this?

The other clauses is fine as it is a recognition of how the NPO has changed and why it's different today, but that line makes a different argument that we had things wrong at the time of the condemn.

I want to see the evidence of this.
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Postby Drew Durrnil » Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:24 am

The first clause says "Liberate" instead of "Condemn".
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Postby Lenlyvit » Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:08 am

I had actually thought of doing this months ago, but was persuaded not too by TITO command. I think it's time to repeal it, and I think this is pretty well written Fauxia. Only thing I can see right off is that "feeder" and "sinker" in the first bullet point should probably be capitalized.
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Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:12 am

Looks very well written on first read. Full support, about time this Condemnation was repealed.
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Fauxia
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Postby Fauxia » Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:37 am

Warzone Codger wrote:
Considering that much of the evidence used against the Pacific in Lazarus, though damning in some ways, was incomplete and framed in large part by individuals biased against it, and that the NPO’s motives may have been far less malicious than was previously understood,


Could you clarify this?

The other clauses is fine as it is a recognition of how the NPO has changed and why it's different today, but that line makes a different argument that we had things wrong at the time of the condemn.

I want to see the evidence of this.

I realize that, which is why I put it at the end, and made the line a little less forceful ("considering" rather than "admitting" or "asserting").

The main point here is that the original Task Force Lazarus logs were incomplete. Sources I would consider to be trustworthy in this regard have made the assertion that the NPO was in to counter a votestack (that, as we all now know, actually did occur). But I'll double-check my sources on this and try and get a bit more proof for you, Codger.

Drew Durrnil wrote:The first clause says "Liberate" instead of "Condemn".

Lol, that was because that's the pre-written line that gets put into resolutions, and I copy-pasted from another repeal less than carefully.

Fixed, thanks.

Lenlyvit wrote:I had actually thought of doing this months ago, but was persuaded not too by TITO command. I think it's time to repeal it, and I think this is pretty well written Fauxia. Only thing I can see right off is that "feeder" and "sinker" in the first bullet point should probably be capitalized.

Thanks Lenly, will do :)

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:Looks very well written on first read. Full support, about time this Condemnation was repealed.

Glad to hear it! Thanks, BBD.
Last edited by Fauxia on Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Crazy girl » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:09 pm

What happened last time this was repealed? Oh yeah, they gave us another reason to condemn.

Against. Never forget.

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Postby A Bloodred Moon » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:12 pm

Fauxia wrote:Noting that the current generation of Pacifican leaders, such as Xoriet (a nation commended by this very Council in SC #266) and The Seeker of Power, do not share the former leadership’s aims of strife and conquest,

There’s a comma behind “The Seeker of Power” which I don’t think makes sense.

Gratified by the Pacific’s reforms, including:
  • Changes to the government structure, including the creation of a new charter and the addition of an elected Senator position. Though by no means did the reforms make the Pacific a democratic region, the changes further empowered the citizens and created added oversight on the region that would formerly have been unthinkable.

I can’t see inside the NPO, but I’ve never heard of their elected position being influential at all, meaning this particular point seems a little overblown.

Considering that much of the evidence used against the Pacific in Lazarus, though damning in some ways, was incomplete and framed in large part by individuals biased against it, and that the NPO’s motives may have been far less malicious than was previously understood,

I suggest you cut this entirely.

Fauxia wrote:The main point here is that the original Task Force Lazarus logs were incomplete. Sources I would consider to be trustworthy in this regard have made the assertion that the NPO was in to counter a votestack (that, as we all now know, actually did occur).

Sources you trust, which you won’t name, but we’re supposed to trust without knowing?

Provided the line regarding TFL is cut, good luck with this.
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Quebecshire
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Postby Quebecshire » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:34 pm

I'm inclined to support this. I think Fauxia's arguments are pretty convincing, and that there is strong reason to believe that a lot of the reasons for the prior second condemnation are not standing issues, at least to my albeit limited knowledge.

I think it was a good call to include mentions of Xoriet and The Seeker of Power, both of whom seem to do a good job representing a more moderate and reasonable NPO.

I think the strongest argument against this probably comes from Crazy girl. Obviously, she's speaking from a point of bias/personal interest, but I can see why some people would want to avoid a "fool me twice" type deal. I know Fauxia added a clause specifying a prerogative to potentially re-condemn, though I that might be more leeway than necessary in some views.

However, from my standpoint, I think that the NPO seems to have rehabilitated its image and some of its practices, and probably does not need a standing condemnation at this point in time. At the moment, support.
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Postby The Python » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:37 pm

For. The NPO has been reforming a lot since its past shenanigans because Lord of Darkness.
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Postby The Notorious Mad Jack » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:43 pm

Considering that much of the evidence used against the Pacific in Lazarus, though damning in some ways, was incomplete and framed in large part by individuals biased against it, and that the NPO’s motives may have been far less malicious than was previously understood,

Against whilst this line is in there.
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Postby ROM » Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:00 pm

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:
Considering that much of the evidence used against the Pacific in Lazarus, though damning in some ways, was incomplete and framed in large part by individuals biased against it, and that the NPO’s motives may have been far less malicious than was previously understood,

Against whilst this line is in there.

yeah that line is some grade A revisionism - 100% against this if that line is included in the submitted version
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Postby Goobergunchia » Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:25 pm

I checked the official Pacific Senate listing and observed the following member listed:
Imperator Emeritus | Pierconium
Imperator Janitorius.

Accordingly, against as per CG. It is my experience that governments involving Ivan Moldavi have a distressingly high tendency to become governments controlled by Ivan Moldavi.
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Postby Comfed » Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:29 pm

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:
Considering that much of the evidence used against the Pacific in Lazarus, though damning in some ways, was incomplete and framed in large part by individuals biased against it, and that the NPO’s motives may have been far less malicious than was previously understood,

Against whilst this line is in there.

I agree, cut this line.
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Postby Honeydewistania » Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:36 pm

Including a line about condemning the Pacific a 3rd time makes me go :eyebrow:
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Postby Altmoras » Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:24 pm

Does a region have to be an ongoing threat to be condemned? Macedon's condemnation tells me no. The NPO's historical resume of condemnable actions are plentiful and it would be a shame to steal their badge just because they haven't done a sovereignty violation in a while. I'd like to hear if they actually want it gone first.
Last edited by Altmoras on Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Outer Sparta » Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:28 pm

Against for now given the over-encompassing NPO history. If this will be repealed, then they don't need to be condemned again unless the NPO goes back to their old tricks...
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Postby Comfed » Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:09 pm

Altmoras wrote:Does a region have to be an ongoing threat to be condemned? Macedon's condemnation tells me no. The NPO's historical resume of condemnable actions are plentiful and it would be a shame to steal their badge just because they haven't done a sovereignty violation in a while. I'd like to hear if they actually want it gone first.

I’m fairly sure they don’t want the Condemn.
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Postby Quebecshire » Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:41 pm

Comfed wrote:
Altmoras wrote:Does a region have to be an ongoing threat to be condemned? Macedon's condemnation tells me no. The NPO's historical resume of condemnable actions are plentiful and it would be a shame to steal their badge just because they haven't done a sovereignty violation in a while. I'd like to hear if they actually want it gone first.

I’m fairly sure they don’t want the Condemn.

My understanding is that they dislike it because it's poorly written, and not for more political reasons.

I might be wrong, though.
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Postby Varanius » Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:04 pm

Altmoras wrote:Does a region have to be an ongoing threat to be condemned? Macedon's condemnation tells me no. The NPO's historical resume of condemnable actions are plentiful and it would be a shame to steal their badge just because they haven't done a sovereignty violation in a while. I'd like to hear if they actually want it gone first.

They don’t mind the condemnation, but want this one repealed because it’s poor quality, or at least that’s the impression I’ve gotten from Xoriet.
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Postby Fauxia » Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:07 pm

A Bloodred Moon wrote:
Fauxia wrote:Noting that the current generation of Pacifican leaders, such as Xoriet (a nation commended by this very Council in SC #266) and The Seeker of Power, do not share the former leadership’s aims of strife and conquest,

There’s a comma behind “The Seeker of Power” which I don’t think makes sense.

Yeah, the way I say a sentence like that usually includes a pause there but you're right that the comma is incorrect. Will fix it, much thanks.

A Bloodred Moon wrote:
Gratified by the Pacific’s reforms, including:
  • Changes to the government structure, including the creation of a new charter and the addition of an elected Senator position. Though by no means did the reforms make the Pacific a democratic region, the changes further empowered the citizens and created added oversight on the region that would formerly have been unthinkable.

I can’t see inside the NPO, but I’ve never heard of their elected position being influential at all, meaning this particular point seems a little overblown.

It's an offhand line that makes pretty clear that it doesn't make the Pacific a democracy, but it is a departure from tradition, and my understanding is that citizens were given more power by the charter.

A Bloodred Moon wrote:
Considering that much of the evidence used against the Pacific in Lazarus, though damning in some ways, was incomplete and framed in large part by individuals biased against it, and that the NPO’s motives may have been far less malicious than was previously understood,

I suggest you cut this entirely.

I likely will for the time being. I will not sink the ship on this.

A Bloodred Moon wrote:
Fauxia wrote:The main point here is that the original Task Force Lazarus logs were incomplete. Sources I would consider to be trustworthy in this regard have made the assertion that the NPO was in to counter a votestack (that, as we all now know, actually did occur).

Sources you trust, which you won’t name, but we’re supposed to trust without knowing?

As I told Codger, work is being done to make this more concrete, but for the time being I will cut it out.

A Bloodred Moon wrote:Provided the line regarding TFL is cut, good luck with this.

Thanks for the help.

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The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:Against whilst this line is in there.

yeah that line is some grade A revisionism - 100% against this if that line is included in the submitted version

Okay, I understand the objection, but by no means is it "grade A". It is not that crazy to say the logs were incomplete, and I think you should leave gameplay forever if you think it's revisionist to argue Cormac doesn't have an agenda (one that has long taken issue with the NPO) and an incredible ability to twist the truth to fit his narrative. Moreover, the line does not say so definitively, only that it should be "considered".

That was a little bit of a rant on a vague comment, but I find that to be hyperbole.

Altmoras wrote:Does a region have to be an ongoing threat to be condemned? Macedon's condemnation tells me no. The NPO's historical resume of condemnable actions are plentiful and it would be a shame to steal their badge just because they haven't done a sovereignty violation in a while. I'd like to hear if they actually want it gone first.

The Macedon comparison is apples to oranges. Macedon is a dead region, and its historical deeds still stand. The Pacific is not run by the same people and has reformed in various ways. It does not maintain continuity with all of its past actions.

I'm not against purging in history, but I don't think the Pacific, a very much living community, is properly represented by the condemnation.

As for do they want it, Xoriet was asked by Jamie on the TRR discord, and her response was: "We don't mind being Condemned but we don't like the current one because it's bad".

Outer Sparta wrote:Against for now given the over-encompassing NPO history. If this will be repealed, then they don't need to be condemned again unless the NPO goes back to their old tricks...

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand your argument.

I would add, I did not make the argument in the proposal (because I am not sure how to execute it) but some of the offenses, about working with blacklisted individuals, are OOC stuff and don't really belong in a condemnation. I'm not sure that argument can be made in the repeal itself, but it is another reason to oppose the condemnation as it stands. I expect that may be part of the reason why the NPO isn't too keen on it.
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Postby Dyllypoly » Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:25 pm

Fauxia wrote:
A Bloodred Moon wrote:There’s a comma behind “The Seeker of Power” which I don’t think makes sense.

Yeah, the way I say a sentence like that usually includes a pause there but you're right that the comma is incorrect. Will fix it, much thanks.


The comma after “The Seeker of Power” is correctly placed - it shouldn’t be removed. It’s considered a nonessential clause in the English language and thus is separated from the rest of the clause by either commas, hyphens, parantheses, etc. at both the beginning and the end.
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Postby Drop Your Pants » Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:50 pm

Lenlyvit wrote:I had actually thought of doing this months ago, but was persuaded not too by TITO command.

Really? *goes to scream Klop and any TITO within range...but mostly Klop*
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Postby Outer Sparta » Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:12 pm

Quebecshire wrote:
Comfed wrote:I’m fairly sure they don’t want the Condemn.

My understanding is that they dislike it because it's poorly written, and not for more political reasons.

I might be wrong, though.

I'm not sure if an updated condemn would do the trick since it would be like a couple of years after the NPO's notoriety at its peak, nor if they want an updated condemn since things may have changed drastically.
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Postby Xoriet » Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:10 am

Goobergunchia wrote:I checked the official Pacific Senate listing and observed the following member listed:
Imperator Emeritus | Pierconium
Imperator Janitorius.

Accordingly, against as per CG. It is my experience that governments involving Ivan Moldavi have a distressingly high tendency to become governments controlled by Ivan Moldavi.

I wanted to stay out of this, but this statement needs some correction. Ivan has an advisory role out of respect for his contributions. He does not contribute to major decisions and serves primarily as an influence bank. We see Ivan maybe a time or two every few months due to RL commitments. Not to mention that Ivan was instrumental in cleaning up messes caused by NPO in modern history rather than being what you probably remember. You can partially thank him for the better turn current NPO took. You can doubt NPO for a lot of things, but Ivan is not one of the realistic reasons.

The Voice of the People (elected Senator) role was Ivan's implementation, as was relinquishment of any connection to St Abbaddon, and certainly a big push in the abolishment of Francoism. Any early images of him are antiquated at this point. Ivan is - these days - the one cleaning up after the messes made by other people, rather than the source of trouble.
Last edited by Xoriet on Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
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