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Future of Nation State

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Arifzakin38
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Founded: Mar 04, 2021
Ex-Nation

Future of Nation State

Postby Arifzakin38 » Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:25 am

Thee world is currently plagued with several protests for more autonomy or liberation viz Hong Kong, Catalonia, Kashmir ,Balochistan, Kurdistan,Khalistan, and so on. It's been only around 400 years since the treaty of Westphalia was signed, which caused the emergence of modern Nation State. Do you think it would survive another hundred years given the widening schisms in the countries and the rise of corporates who are powerful enough to replace the government? It seems that the increasing regionalism, unregulated capitalism and religious militancy would eventually lead to the collapse of the nation state and something sinister like Neo feudalism will ensue later. What are your thoughts on it?

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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:28 am

The end of nation states is like the European Union. It will take a little longer for the people of the Middle East to understand this, but you cannot escape from innovation, do not forget the french revolution.
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Punished UMN
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:51 pm

I had a thought on a similar issue in the bath which I believe to constitute political reality, let me write it down and then I will post my full take here.
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Punished UMN
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:25 pm

I would argue that the Nation State represents what may be the largest type of polity that could be stable, however, even many of these are not stable, for a simple reason that undermines the idea of supranational states, and that is the scale of the state and the room for factionalism. While the European Union has been plagued lately with accusations that its system is unfair and doesn't offer representation, the EU is actually quite a bit fairer than most supranational unions would be, in that it has many large nations and thus there is not a single nation which utterly dominates the union (despite accusations against Germany). However, something like a world-state as is fashionable in science fiction would be untenable due to population disparities between nations. It would simply not be in the interests of small nations to join, as in doing so, they would lose control over much of their own affairs and hand much of it over to an entity in which they have very little representation or influence.

An example of this historically would be the United Arab Republic, established as a union-state between Egypt and Syria at the height of the Pan-Arabist movement of the Cold War. While both nations were initially enthusiastic, Syrian enthusiasm began to collapse when they collectively realized that Egypt, possessing a population many times that of Syria in size, dominated the union-state politically, at which point the short-lived union-state was dissolved.

The problem with the assumptions of those who want larger states is that firstly, they assume that nations will join the union voluntarily (which is fair enough, it has happened several times), but secondly, they assume that they will never want to leave. This presents the fundamental problem of secession in international relations and where sovereignty rests. If sovereignty rests with the people, then secession seems that it must be legal, with central governments having little recourse. If a nation has voluntarily entered a union, surely its consent can be revoked. If it rests with the central government, however, this opens a second can of worms, which is that sovereignty then rests ultimately with the state rather than with the public, and then the legal theories of authoritarianism are entirely valid, even in democratic states.

And assume, for a moment, that one does manage to create a global national culture, so what? It would be folly to assume that a global culture marks the end of history, as new sub-cultures arise within the newly-established world-state based on common experience. After all, nationalism was a fairly recent development in history, so it isn't unreasonable to assume that something like it will never be developed again. There are also sharp class divides by region and by class which this state would not solve immediately, and these disparities would lead to cultural differences which could fray at such a state.

When one looks at our own time, in light of history, they will see that there is no march of progress towards a single state. If anything, the previous one-hundred years have displayed a trend towards Balkanization, even within Europe and other Western states. The Austro-Hungarian Empire split into multiple states, Poland was crafted out of the remains of the German and Russian Empires, the Ottoman Empire lost control of the Middle East, India ceased to be united by a single power, the collapse of colonial empires took place. The Soviet Union and Yugoslavia broke up in the twilight of the twentieth century, leading to a spring of nations, new nations gained independence from places such as Ethiopia, Pakistan, Indonesia, Somalia, and others. Even in the twenty-first century, we see Balkanization, most notably with the secession of South Sudan, the internal-Balkanization of Syria, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Mali, Sudan, South Sudan, Iraq, Ukraine, and even Mexico with the Chiapas movement. Further, even relatively stable and democratic unions are beginning to come under strain, with many movements to leave the European Union quite powerful, and parts of the United Kingdom with powerful secession movements. It is quite clear that the trend is still towards national or ethnic states rather than toward supranational states.
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:03 pm

I don't believe the nation-state is going out of style anytime soon. People have trouble getting along with folks that are different from them.
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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:50 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:I don't believe the nation-state is going out of style anytime soon. People have trouble getting along with folks that are different from them.
I wonder what Marie Antoinette was thinking when she was eating at her palace while people were getting poorer. Have you calculated the number of hunger and active wars in 2021 ? We will defend the states of the Union. Read the book Lord of the Flies.
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:57 pm

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:I don't believe the nation-state is going out of style anytime soon. People have trouble getting along with folks that are different from them.
I wonder what Marie Antoinette was thinking when she was eating at her palace while people were getting poorer. Have you calculated the number of hunger and active wars in 2021 ? We will defend the states of the Union. Read the book Lord of the Flies.
Image


1. The French Revolution had absolutely nothing to do with supranational unions.
2. Marie Antoinette actively tried to help the poor. You're just echoing republican propaganda designed to make the Royals look bad. Like seriously, I'm anti-monarchist myself but come on dude.
3. Lord of the Flies is not some holy book for you to thump when people disagree with your positions.
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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:09 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:I wonder what Marie Antoinette was thinking when she was eating at her palace while people were getting poorer. Have you calculated the number of hunger and active wars in 2021 ? We will defend the states of the Union. Read the book Lord of the Flies.


1. The French Revolution had absolutely nothing to do with supranational unions.
2. Marie Antoinette actively tried to help the poor. You're just echoing republican propaganda designed to make the Royals look bad. Like seriously, I'm anti-monarchist myself but come on dude.
3. Lord of the Flies is not some holy book for you to thump when people disagree with your positions.
In fact, we are all people stranded on the island, why are we fighting because arms dealers want it ? Unity is the power of humanity and modernity.
https://youtu.be/LIIz82ZUCQY?t=55
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Wink Wonk We Like Stonks
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Wink Wonk We Like Stonks » Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:01 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:I wonder what Marie Antoinette was thinking when she was eating at her palace while people were getting poorer. Have you calculated the number of hunger and active wars in 2021 ? We will defend the states of the Union. Read the book Lord of the Flies.
Image



2. Marie Antoinette actively tried to help the poor. You're just echoing republican propaganda designed to make the Royals look bad. Like seriously, I'm anti-monarchist myself but come on dude.

i'm intrigued, do you have sauce?
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:09 pm

Wink Wonk We Like Stonks wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:

2. Marie Antoinette actively tried to help the poor. You're just echoing republican propaganda designed to make the Royals look bad. Like seriously, I'm anti-monarchist myself but come on dude.

i'm intrigued, do you have sauce?


My mistake. I was thinking of someone else.

I know she never said "Let them eat cake", however. That was propaganda.
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Immoren
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Immoren » Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:46 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:I don't believe the nation-state is going out of style anytime soon. People have trouble getting along with folks that are different from them.


Are there nation states that didn't start as "bunch of disparate tribes on each others shoulders wearing a trenchcoat"?
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Claorica
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Ex-Nation

Postby Claorica » Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:09 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Wink Wonk We Like Stonks wrote:i'm intrigued, do you have sauce?


My mistake. I was thinking of someone else.

I know she never said "Let them eat cake", however. That was propaganda.


Even if she did , It wasn't in the dismissive tone that the propaganda applies - she was a sheltered Austrian royal who was leading a sheltered life as the wife of a French Royal, a Hapsburg married into the Bourbons - She was literally a member of both of the richest and most powerful families in continental Europe at the time. She literally didn't understand that people were starving because she had no conception of mass starvation.
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Kowani
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:10 pm

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
1. The French Revolution had absolutely nothing to do with supranational unions.
2. Marie Antoinette actively tried to help the poor. You're just echoing republican propaganda designed to make the Royals look bad. Like seriously, I'm anti-monarchist myself but come on dude.
3. Lord of the Flies is not some holy book for you to thump when people disagree with your positions.
In fact, we are all people stranded on the island, why are we fighting because arms dealers want it ? Unity is the power of humanity and modernity.
https://youtu.be/LIIz82ZUCQY?t=55

You know, a Lord of the Flies situation happened in real life. Only, the exact opposite of what the book suggests should happen did.
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