NATION

PASSWORD

Are gangs always a problem?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Borderlands of Rojava
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11463
Founded: Jul 27, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Are gangs always a problem?

Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:13 am

I'm sure we all have seen at least one hood film in our life. The movies often portray gang life in the inner city among black and hispanic youths and the dangers of it, such as murder and prison time, and we all have seen the endless news reports that have come out of the war on the streets of Chicago, with names like the Vice Lords, the Latin Kings, the Gangster Disciples and the Black P Stones being thrown around in them. Or you've seen news reports out of Los Angeles on the latest violence between the crips and Florencia 13. But are gangs always bad? What even constitutes a gang? Is a gang just a group of people who associate with each other? Or is it a group that commits crime together? How organized does the group have to be to be a gang? Is there a certain number of members required before a group is a gang? And were inner city gangs always this dangerous? I think the trouble with talking about gang violence often comes down to the struggle to define what a gang even is, because while we know who definitely is a gang (the Bloods often come to mind), we often disagree on where the cutoff line is between gang and not a gang. This has led to a disagreement among people in my own state about whether Detroit has a history of gang violence or not, with the issue being more complicated than simply "there definitely are or definitely aren't gangs." So what is your opinion NSG? Do gangs refer simply to crime groups and are gangs always a problem, and what even is a gang anyway?
Leftist, commie and Antifa Guy. Democratic Confederalist, Anti-racist

"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

User avatar
Resilient Acceleration
Diplomat
 
Posts: 721
Founded: Sep 23, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Resilient Acceleration » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:22 am

Well, depends. In my country, many street thugs and gang members are eventually recruited by local or religious unions and become a "non-governmental organization". Usually they either become (1) an organized, government-approved racketeering group that are allowed to extort local businesses in exchange for their participation in upholding public order, (2) an organized thug group owned by political interests, usually religious, (3) both, or (4) recruited directly into local police corps whose task is to do local governments' dirty job such as evicting illegal slums standing in the way of real estate interests.

The rest would depend on the crime they're involved in, and dealt with accordingly. Drug traffickers, but also motor gangs, vehice robbery groups, etc.
Last edited by Resilient Acceleration on Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

2033.12.21
 Nippon World | Secretary Pasca: "release Taiwan lmao" if China wants embargo of critical phosphorus lifted, according to tweet // PLA dispatched to crush food riots in 18 Chinese cities amid agricultural collapse in North China due to the 2033 Asian Water Crisis and global shortage of phosphorus-based fertilizer // Skirmishes over Indian dams in Kashmir as the Indus river recorded lowest water levels in 2500 years

A near-future scenario where transhumanist tech barons and their ruthless capitalism are trying to save the planet, emphasis on "try" | Resilient Accelerationism in a nutshell | OOC

User avatar
Major-Tom
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14679
Founded: Mar 09, 2016
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Major-Tom » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:25 am

I miss the impeccable street choreography of the gangs portrayed in old-timey movies.

"When you're a jet, you're a jet all the way baby."
"We're flawed because we want so much. We're ruined because we get these things and wish for what we had."
Who is Tom?
Other Pertinent Factbooks

User avatar
Astral Traveller
Secretary
 
Posts: 26
Founded: Feb 27, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Astral Traveller » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:28 am

A gang in its definition is a group that commits criminal activity, so yes it's per definition a problem.
Distributist, Agrarianist, Conservative, Theologian and Philosopher.

User avatar
Jabberwocky
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 375
Founded: Nov 02, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Jabberwocky » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:28 am

Chinese were writing about gang problems 2000 years B. C.
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gambol in the wabe.
All mimsy were the borogoves
And the mome raths outgrabe.

User avatar
Ancapimania
Envoy
 
Posts: 227
Founded: Feb 11, 2021
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Ancapimania » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:29 am

The UK is full of gangs.

User avatar
Risottia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 53378
Founded: Sep 05, 2006
New York Times Democracy

Postby Risottia » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:29 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:I'm sure we all have seen at least one hood film in our life.

Yes, I remember a thing about a gang whose leader was called "Robber Hood" or something like that. The were a sort of all-white Anglo an-cap libertarians armed with improvised weapons who refused to pay the due taxes to the legitimate government of the country, yelling "freedum" and attacking the local sheriff constantly.
Statanist through and through.
Evilutionist Atheist Crusadjihadist. "Darwinu Akhbar! Dawkins vult!"
Founder of the NSG Peace Prize Committee.
I'm back.
SUMMER, BLOODY SUMMER!

User avatar
Saiwania
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18653
Founded: Jun 30, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Saiwania » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:29 am

Gangs usually refer to criminal groups but a broader definition could include fraternal organizations or whatever other type of group that doesn't have to be inherently criminal. Sometimes its really just a group of people with common interests and identity.

User avatar
Side 3
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 183
Founded: Jul 07, 2018
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Side 3 » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:31 am

Well the definition of gang is "an organized group of criminals," so I'd say that answers the question of whether or not they exist/what they are. And yes, they are a problem. Although a lot of people try to paint gangs as "families," they're not. They're like an abusive spouse. They'll exploit you and use you, and then throw you away when you're no longer useful. But unfortunately, a lot of the people in them come crawling back because they don't have anyone else to turn to. So yes, they are always a problem, and one that really needs to be dealt with.
Sieg Zeon!

REDCON-1

ZeoNet Channel 2:

January 22nd, 0097: Stocks in the Zimmad Corporation have gone down by 5% today, following the military's decision to halt its purchase of the company's latest mobile armor. The unnamed mobile armor has been rumored to have been in development for the past 6 years, and would've been worth roughly $150 million.

User avatar
The New California Republic
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33573
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:49 am

Ancapimania wrote:The UK is full of gangs.

Yes and no. It depends where you are.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

User avatar
Resilient Acceleration
Diplomat
 
Posts: 721
Founded: Sep 23, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Resilient Acceleration » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:51 am

Side 3 wrote:Well the definition of gang is "an organized group of criminals," so I'd say that answers the question of whether or not they exist/what they are. And yes, they are a problem. Although a lot of people try to paint gangs as "families," they're not. They're like an abusive spouse. They'll exploit you and use you, and then throw you away when you're no longer useful. But unfortunately, a lot of the people in them come crawling back because they don't have anyone else to turn to. So yes, they are always a problem, and one that really needs to be dealt with.

Still, in most cases, poverty levels and social mobility is directly related to the prevalence of criminal gang activity, so 'curing' the latter can only be done if we cure the former. In my country, violent gangs are shot on the spot during the military dictatorship while less violent gangs are allowed. Many surviving gang leaders eventually became politicians with control over government spending, and can thus support subordinate gangs by directly giving them taxpayer money in exchange for political support. This reduces the need for violent crime.

Political power also grants access to the planning of public security, which allows for peaceful conflict resolutions or an orderly distribution of racketeering territories. Most notorious here would be the Pemuda Pancasila, a thug group involved in the 1966-67 genocide whose current vice leader is the speaker of the national parliament. I guess that's one way to, uh, solve gang violence.

2033.12.21
 Nippon World | Secretary Pasca: "release Taiwan lmao" if China wants embargo of critical phosphorus lifted, according to tweet // PLA dispatched to crush food riots in 18 Chinese cities amid agricultural collapse in North China due to the 2033 Asian Water Crisis and global shortage of phosphorus-based fertilizer // Skirmishes over Indian dams in Kashmir as the Indus river recorded lowest water levels in 2500 years

A near-future scenario where transhumanist tech barons and their ruthless capitalism are trying to save the planet, emphasis on "try" | Resilient Accelerationism in a nutshell | OOC

User avatar
Borderlands of Rojava
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11463
Founded: Jul 27, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:52 am

Resilient Acceleration wrote:Well, depends. In my country, many street thugs and gang members are eventually recruited by local or religious unions and become a "non-governmental organization". Usually they either become (1) an organized, government-approved racketeering group that are allowed to extort local businesses in exchange for their participation in upholding public order, (2) an organized thug group owned by political interests, usually religious, (3) both, or (4) recruited directly into local police corps whose task is to do local governments' dirty job such as evicting illegal slums standing in the way of real estate interests.

The rest would depend on the crime they're involved in, and dealt with accordingly. Drug traffickers, but also motor gangs, vehice robbery groups, etc.


Damn, where are u from?
Leftist, commie and Antifa Guy. Democratic Confederalist, Anti-racist

"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

User avatar
Borderlands of Rojava
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11463
Founded: Jul 27, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:53 am

Side 3 wrote:Well the definition of gang is "an organized group of criminals," so I'd say that answers the question of whether or not they exist/what they are. And yes, they are a problem. Although a lot of people try to paint gangs as "families," they're not. They're like an abusive spouse. They'll exploit you and use you, and then throw you away when you're no longer useful. But unfortunately, a lot of the people in them come crawling back because they don't have anyone else to turn to. So yes, they are always a problem, and one that really needs to be dealt with.


It sounds simple enough but what counts as a group committing criminal acts? Do the acts need to be sanctioned by some head of the group or does a group full of guys who commit criminal acts all the time without being told to count as a gang?
Leftist, commie and Antifa Guy. Democratic Confederalist, Anti-racist

"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

User avatar
Salus Maior
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22527
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:54 am

Insofar as they break the law and victimize people, it's a problem.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist.

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. -1 Timothy 1:15

“No one in the world can change Truth. What we can do and should do is to seek truth and to serve it when we have found it. The real conflict is the inner conflict. Beyond armies of occupation and the hecatombs of extermination camps, there are two irreconcilable enemies in the depth of every soul: good and evil, sin and love. And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?”
~ St. Maximilian Kolbe

User avatar
Resilient Acceleration
Diplomat
 
Posts: 721
Founded: Sep 23, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Resilient Acceleration » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:55 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Resilient Acceleration wrote:Well, depends. In my country, many street thugs and gang members are eventually recruited by local or religious unions and become a "non-governmental organization". Usually they either become (1) an organized, government-approved racketeering group that are allowed to extort local businesses in exchange for their participation in upholding public order, (2) an organized thug group owned by political interests, usually religious, (3) both, or (4) recruited directly into local police corps whose task is to do local governments' dirty job such as evicting illegal slums standing in the way of real estate interests.

The rest would depend on the crime they're involved in, and dealt with accordingly. Drug traffickers, but also motor gangs, vehice robbery groups, etc.


Damn, where are u from?

Indonesia. But I mean, they usually only operate on the poorer parts of the city, or on traditional markets. There was actually a TV drama serial about a retired gang boss, and it documented how they extract levy in traditional markets, regulate trade activities, enforce security in the area, fight for territories, etc. To be honest, except on the "fight for territories" part, this is a far more peaceful way for gangs to earn money and I can see why the model stays (especially since the boss are often politicians or public security officials themselves).

A bit of fun fact, the 'local police corps' (many of whom are ex-thugs' are officially called the Pamongpraja Police Unit. Pamongpraja is an institution we inherited from the Dutch, and during colonization years, they are local thugs hired by Dutch corporate interests to oppress plantation laborers and extract harvest quotas. So I guess this model isn't exactly new.
Last edited by Resilient Acceleration on Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

2033.12.21
 Nippon World | Secretary Pasca: "release Taiwan lmao" if China wants embargo of critical phosphorus lifted, according to tweet // PLA dispatched to crush food riots in 18 Chinese cities amid agricultural collapse in North China due to the 2033 Asian Water Crisis and global shortage of phosphorus-based fertilizer // Skirmishes over Indian dams in Kashmir as the Indus river recorded lowest water levels in 2500 years

A near-future scenario where transhumanist tech barons and their ruthless capitalism are trying to save the planet, emphasis on "try" | Resilient Accelerationism in a nutshell | OOC

User avatar
Side 3
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 183
Founded: Jul 07, 2018
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Side 3 » Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:13 am

Resilient Acceleration wrote:
Side 3 wrote:Well the definition of gang is "an organized group of criminals," so I'd say that answers the question of whether or not they exist/what they are. And yes, they are a problem. Although a lot of people try to paint gangs as "families," they're not. They're like an abusive spouse. They'll exploit you and use you, and then throw you away when you're no longer useful. But unfortunately, a lot of the people in them come crawling back because they don't have anyone else to turn to. So yes, they are always a problem, and one that really needs to be dealt with.

Still, in most cases, poverty levels and social mobility is directly related to the prevalence of criminal gang activity, so 'curing' the latter can only be done if we cure the former.

I agree 100%. Most "gangsters" end up that way due to a lack of any other options to generate income. This in turn leads to gangs having economic control over entire neighborhoods. It's only by improving socio-economic conditions that we are truly going to bring an end to gangs.
Sieg Zeon!

REDCON-1

ZeoNet Channel 2:

January 22nd, 0097: Stocks in the Zimmad Corporation have gone down by 5% today, following the military's decision to halt its purchase of the company's latest mobile armor. The unnamed mobile armor has been rumored to have been in development for the past 6 years, and would've been worth roughly $150 million.

User avatar
My Political Fantasy
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 191
Founded: Jan 10, 2021
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby My Political Fantasy » Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:27 am

States are like very big gangs, you pay them money to protect you and provide you services.
A combination of the neutrality of Switzerland, the military capabilities of Israel, and the authoritarian governance of Russia.
I like to complain about bad governments are people halfway across the world, but I prefer that anyone except me deal with them.
The official themesong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbkqE4fpvdI

User avatar
Astral Traveller
Secretary
 
Posts: 26
Founded: Feb 27, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Astral Traveller » Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:39 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:It sounds simple enough but what counts as a group committing criminal acts? Do the acts need to be sanctioned by some head of the group or does a group full of guys who commit criminal acts all the time without being told to count as a gang?

A gang is, per definition, an organized group of criminals. Most crimes are that which produce victims, either by force or removing some sort of freedom. The organization does not matter, because the intent of a gang is to commit crimes. Therefore, it is per definition a problem.

Resilient Acceleration wrote:Still, in most cases, poverty levels and social mobility is directly related to the prevalence of criminal gang activity, so 'curing' the latter can only be done if we cure the former.

That does not deny the fact that gangs are a problem (for other citizens). Whilst gangs are a phenom of poor socio-economic environments it does not make their deeds acceptable. I agree that it's merely a symptom of a bigger problem, but in itself, it is a problem as well.
Distributist, Agrarianist, Conservative, Theologian and Philosopher.

User avatar
Atheris
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5612
Founded: Oct 05, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Atheris » Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:16 am

9/10 times, yeah.
Kannap wrote:It is I, the stranger in the night who cuts the power lines with hedge clippers
Valentine Z wrote:**a m b i e n c e**
Kick cancer's ass for me, Owlograd!
a gentleman in the streets, asleep in the bed
The self-proclaimed Resident Shitposter of NSG.
Proudly sex-repulsed ace and bisensual aro. Cis he/him. Trans ally. ADHD.
"To comment is human, to preview, divine." - Godot
Orthodox Preterist non-denominational Christian Universalist.
I write fanfiction (of the non-explicit kind). Fuck you if you judge me.
Pirate Politics are fucking awesome.

User avatar
The Astrocracy
Secretary
 
Posts: 40
Founded: Jul 07, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Astrocracy » Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:20 am

If you mean criminal gangs, then yes; they are answerable to nobody but themselves, engage in criminal and often violent behavior, and in certain places, they basically control the entire neighborhood, terrorizing its citizenry and suppressing any attempts to stop the through violence and intimidation.

User avatar
Adamede
Minister
 
Posts: 2741
Founded: Jul 22, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Adamede » Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:22 am

Effectively speaking yes they are.
21yo American male. Political beliefs lean classical liberal/libertarian. Like most everyone else my opinions are garbage.

Pro: Democracy, 1st & 2nd Amendments, Science, Conservation, Nuclear, universal healthcare, Equality regardless of race, creed, or sexual orientation.
Neutral : Feminism, anarchism
Anti: Left and Right wing authoritarianism, religious extremists & theocracy, monarchy, nanny & surveillance states

User avatar
Ethel mermania
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 113110
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ethel mermania » Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:26 am

Major-Tom wrote:I miss the impeccable street choreography of the gangs portrayed in old-timey movies.

"When you're a jet, you're a jet all the way baby."

They could sing, the could dance, they could act. Not like the crap today.
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

http://www.salientpartners.com/epsilont ... ilizations

User avatar
Dogmeat
Minister
 
Posts: 2913
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Dogmeat » Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:36 am

They are, but they're also a problem that can get better or worse.

Like Herpes.
Immortal God Dog
Hey boy, know any tricks?
天狗

User avatar
Kubra
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13792
Founded: Apr 15, 2006
Libertarian Police State

Postby Kubra » Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:50 am

A gang is a gang when it engages in organised criminal activity. If it's just dudes hanging out on a block then it's just, y'know, dudes hanging out on a block. Breaking COVID social gathering restrictions doesn't count as organised criminal activity, of course.
a gang is not necessarily a formal organisational structure, a few guys who boost cars together are gang even if they don't have a fancy oath and funny hand signs.
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
-Comrade Posadas

User avatar
Herador
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6997
Founded: Mar 08, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Herador » Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:05 pm

Where I grew up in California the gangs mainly pushed drugs, violence wasn't rare but it wasn't uncommon and a lot of central and south american first gen kids got wrapped up in it. I'd say it wasn't ideal but it wasn't a huge problem. In the California town I moved to in my early 20's gangs were groups of kids who did copious amounts of meth and picked street fights. Harder drugs, bigger problem. Now I live in DC and bodies turn up every day, this is a huge problem and kids,I mean 10 and younger, catch bullets over this shit.

I guess my takeaway is that a gangs ability to cause harm seems to be linked to pop size,though that's anecdotal I'll admit, butI've never seen them be a net positive for a community.
I know what I'm talking about ~5% of the time, the rest is drunken shitposting

"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind"

These are tough times to be a dreamer.

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Arcanda, Celritannia, Ethane, Gnark, Greater Blue Vikings, Grinning Dragon, Ifreann, Istoreya, Kannap, Loeje, Maliswankia, Necroghastia, Old Tyrannia, Senkaku, Shofercia, Taiwanese South West Africa, The New California Republic, The Reformed American Republic, Vassenor, Vos May, Washington Resistance Army, West Balkan Union, Yessederce

Advertisement

Remove ads