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Gender Abolitionism and Postgenderism

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
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Lutore
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Gender Abolitionism and Postgenderism

Postby Lutore » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:02 pm

As some may know and some not, sex and gender are two different things. Sex is based on your reproductive functions while gender is the characteristics of masculinity and femininity as pertained to societal norms. How you portray yourself in society as either a man or a woman based on social norms put upon the sexes is your gender. Being nonbinary would be to feel like you have a mix of genders, or like you have no gender at all. You are neither a man nor a woman as far as gender goes. Their sex might still say male or female but their gender is neither. Though I believe sex exists (obviously), gender exists only as much as society would claim. Meaning the second society stops putting social norms upon people based on their sex, gender ceases to exist. I believe though there are biological differences to both males and females to say being a real man is to be Strong, Dominant, Confident, Head of the House, Protective, etc is to say women are not, cannot, or should not be that way as well. The same for being told a real woman is to be Soft Hearted, Quiet, Submissive, Emotional, Patient, etc is to say men should not have those characteristics. Remember when Harry Styles wore a dress in some magazine like a month ago and conservatives freaked out over it because men can't wear dresses? That's what gender abolitionism and or postgenderism goes against. Now I know the name kinda sounds dumb but I didn't come up with it so it's not like I can do anything about it, but I would like to know what people think on the issue.

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Arcturus Novus
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Postby Arcturus Novus » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:13 pm

Okay, I'm confused. In advocating for gender abolition, are you saying people should define themselves as their assigned sex at birth, and that presentation/behavior/etc. should not be gendered?
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Postby The Islands of Versilia » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:17 pm

Nah, I’m cool with maintaining the existence of society-ordained genders and ideas of masculinity and femininity, we just got to let people live and let live leaning towards either gender they wish or feel more comfortable with.
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Postby Nilokeras » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:18 pm

Lutore wrote:Sex is based on your reproductive functions while gender is the characteristics of masculinity and femininity as pertained to societal norms.


Sex is in large part also socially determined since the actual genetic pathways involved in determining outward sexual phenotype are much more complex than just XX = female, XY = male, and determination of 'sex' is often made on a very cursory visual basis.

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Postby Auzkhia » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:20 pm

I disagree with the notion that sex and gender are different.

As a trans woman, my sex is female, or at least closer to female than male if anything. I am definitely not male or a man. Women are female, because they are semantically synonymous, however, transgender women are both women and female. My gender is also queer, agender, non-binary. I'm not exclusively a woman, and therefore I am also genderqueer or non-binary, but for the most part I transitioned to be more female, because having a so called female body is just better for me, it helped to reliev gender dysphoria and being more feminized in both physical and social ways, also helped to increase gender euphoria. My sex is female because it matches closer to cis women than cis women, especially for hormonal and endocrinological reasons, and pretty much any medical thing besides reproductive anatomy, however trans people often do report some changes to their genitals on HRT, and this is not getting into surgeries.

Also, biological sex is complicated and complex, especially when we talk about intersex people. Like, I do not know my chromosomes, and that does not matter, even some people can be surprised. I know people who were assigned male at birth but turned out to have two X chromosomes, either just that or something like XXY. Most intersex people I know are also transgender or non-binary as well, and have transitioned away from their assigned gender at birth.

I think I do have tendencies towards gender abolition. I think we shouldn't have gender as a basis for social organization, especially with regards to hierarchies, i.e. patriarchy. Gender roles especially need to go away. I do not think gender is that useful, it makes no sense to me. I do know that my self-perception is best expressed using feminine and some queer or androgynous terminology. Even with expression, I definitely can be non-conforming at times, but like that is not the same as identity. I love being feminine, but I'm more like a masculine woman than a feminine man, even if I used to identify as a "femboy" at some point. Gender expression has always changed up depending on the time, styles, and even cultures. Likewise, cultural genders, like hijras of India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh, or two-spirit people in various North American indigenous nations, or the Māhu of Hawai'i, or the Fa'afafine of Samoa, or the Kathoey of Thailand, or the Sworn Virgins of Albania, or the Femminielli of Naples. Like gender is not universal, it can be different and change over time too. Like, even my identity is based in western transsexuality, which is itself a response to the sex-gender system that exists in most places especially that are "western" or influenced by that, i.e European colonial influence.

Gender is a fluid spectrum based on many socially constructed and psychological factors. It does not matter to me how someone realizes their gender. Good faith self-identification is paramount.
Last edited by Auzkhia on Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Kowani » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:21 pm

I’m sure this will go well
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Postby Lutore » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:25 pm

Arcturus Novus wrote:Okay, I'm confused. In advocating for gender abolition, are you saying people should define themselves as their assigned sex at birth, and that presentation/behavior/etc. should not be gendered?


Not necessarily, socially I would argue most would just be seen as people and identify as people rather than as a man or a woman. However, when it comes to health and science and going to the doctors they would diagnose and or treat your disease or problem based on your sex due to the differences in males and females. Meaning sex would still exist but socially wouldn't mean much. Medically and scientifically and in similar other fields, it would be more prevalent in studies and the like.

I hope I explained that in a way that is understandable.

Sex still exists, but socially most would probably not think much of it while in the science fields it will still be studied and treated the same as it is today

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Postby Arcturus Novus » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:25 pm

Auzkhia wrote:As a trans woman,

I think you mean, As a trans woman,

Lutore wrote:
Arcturus Novus wrote:Okay, I'm confused. In advocating for gender abolition, are you saying people should define themselves as their assigned sex at birth, and that presentation/behavior/etc. should not be gendered?


Not necessarily, socially I would argue most would just be seen as people and identify as people rather than as a man or a woman. However, when it comes to health and science and going to the doctors they would diagnose and or treat your disease or problem based on your sex due to the differences in males and females. Meaning sex would still exist but socially wouldn't mean much. Medically and scientifically and in similar other fields, it would be more prevalent in studies and the like.

I'd argue that a lot of people, especially trans people, find a lot of comfort in their gender though. It's important to who we are, to our personal stories. I'm not just a person, I'm a woman - more importantly, I'm a trans woman. I don't see myself ever identifying otherwise.
Last edited by Arcturus Novus on Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:25 pm

Can we abolish race as a concept?
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Postby Utopian States of America » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:28 pm

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:Can we abolish race as a concept?

Why does it still even exist anyway?
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Postby Auzkhia » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:30 pm

Arcturus Novus wrote:
Auzkhia wrote:As a trans woman,

I think you mean, As a trans woman,

Ha nice, though like her, I'm probably a lesbian now, it's complicated, I just say queer. All I know is that girls and enbies are hot, don't really find men that attractive, except maybe if they're really fem or some fictional ones.
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:Can we abolish race as a concept?

Yes, though one needs to reconcile racial injustices, disparities, and systemic discrimination.

That's how it could serve as a model for other utopian pipedreams like abolish borders or abolish gender in this thread's case.
Utopian States of America wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:Can we abolish race as a concept?

Why does it still even exist anyway?

Logic of domination: a belief on natural hierarchies that are probably unfounded.
Last edited by Auzkhia on Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Arcturus Novus » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:32 pm

Utopian States of America wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:Can we abolish race as a concept?

Why does it still even exist anyway?

Because of complex intersections between ethnic and cultural backgrounds and the societies that they exist in. I don't think Western society is ever going to be "post-racial" but I do hope we'll reach a point where different races are simultaneously seen and treated equally.
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Postby Nilokeras » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:32 pm

Auzkhia wrote:Also, biological sex is complicated and complex, especially when we talk about intersex people. Like, I do not know my chromosomes, and that does not matter, even some people can be surprised. I know people who were assigned male at birth but turned out to have two X chromosomes, either just that or something like XXY. Most intersex people I know are also transgender or non-binary as well, and have transitioned away from their assigned gender at birth.


Some people can be very surprised. Microchimaerism, for example, is something that the majority of people who go through pregnancy have - it's when cells from their fetus migrate through the placenta and take up residence in maternal tissues. This chimaerism can persist for decades after giving birth, and chimaeric cells have been found incorporated in brain tissue, reproductive organs, muscles and almost everywhere else you can think of. The inverse is also true - children frequently acquire chimaeric tissues from their mothers. What is your biological sex if someone were to do a biopsy of your bicep muscles and find a mixture of XY and XX karyotypes?
Last edited by Nilokeras on Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Utopian States of America » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:36 pm

[MOD EDIT]
I kinda now understand why the "innofensive centrist democracy" is renamed to "fascists" in the liberal theme
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Postby Lutore » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:52 pm

Arcturus Novus wrote:
Auzkhia wrote:As a trans woman,

I think you mean, As a trans woman,

Lutore wrote:
Not necessarily, socially I would argue most would just be seen as people and identify as people rather than as a man or a woman. However, when it comes to health and science and going to the doctors they would diagnose and or treat your disease or problem based on your sex due to the differences in males and females. Meaning sex would still exist but socially wouldn't mean much. Medically and scientifically and in similar other fields, it would be more prevalent in studies and the like.

I'd argue that a lot of people, especially trans people, find a lot of comfort in their gender though. It's important to who we are, to our personal stories. I'm not just a person, I'm a woman - more importantly, I'm a trans woman. I don't see myself ever identifying otherwise.


But you'd agree telling someone they should act a certain way based on their sex is wrong right? Because that's the main belief. Gender is just the characteristics of masculine or feminine traits and gender abolitionism says a "biological man" or "biological female" shouldn't have to act feminine or masculine just because of their biological sex

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Postby Atheris » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:58 pm

I'm obviously against "gender abolitionism". Not that transgender people aren't people, they obviously are, it's just that I think gender is generally a net positive. Gender's an important definer between the male and female sexes, like marketing clothes, setting up restrooms, and stuff like that. Not that gender and sex are the same thing, they obviously aren't, and not that women can wear men's clothes or men can wear women's clothes (as in crossdressing, being genderfluid, or cosplaying).
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Postby USS Monitor » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:08 pm

I don't think gender abolition is likely to happen, nor do I think it's necessary.

But people should be free to express themselves in ways that don't strictly follow the gender binary. I think most people will still be cis male or female even if they don't have to, but there's no reason why EVERYONE has to do that. It's OK if some people decide to transition or defy gender norms.
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Postby Kasa Tkoth Sphere » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:15 pm

Lutore wrote:
Arcturus Novus wrote:I think you mean, As a trans woman,


I'd argue that a lot of people, especially trans people, find a lot of comfort in their gender though. It's important to who we are, to our personal stories. I'm not just a person, I'm a woman - more importantly, I'm a trans woman. I don't see myself ever identifying otherwise.


But you'd agree telling someone they should act a certain way based on their sex is wrong right? Because that's the main belief. Gender is just the characteristics of masculine or feminine traits and gender abolitionism says a "biological man" or "biological female" shouldn't have to act feminine or masculine just because of their biological sex

I was under the impression that gender abolitionism said that nobody could even act "feminine" or "masculine" — that with those terms defining categories of behavior or aesthetic gone, there'd be no reason to make the distinction.

I'm worried that this can't be a net positive. If we fence off a category of self-identification and say "nope, no matter how you arrange yourself, you are not allowed to place yourself in any of these conveniently predefined zones", then we've made the space for expression smaller, or at the very least discouraged people from associating with one another for certain reasons. As a transhumanist, I want the future to be as big as possible; completely and utterly rejecting a concept of group identity because it led to problems historically (and I'll readily admit a societal overemphasis on the biology-presentation relation has done so!) is at least a little bit counterproductive.

It'd be the sort of thing one would have to build an entire new society around, starting with people committed to the concept and populated by their descendants after their deaths. I'd love to see that done, by the way, just so everyone else can see if it fits their own preferences — but I really do feel that "choice of gender" should be expanded to "choice of categorization", rather than made taboo.

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Postby Xanthal » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:15 pm

A new label is like a new box: the more you have the more likely any individual is to find one (or more) that they're comfortable living in, but in the end you're not really promoting integration- just segregating people into more groups. Outside the matter of who's capable of fertilizing an egg and who's capable of hosting that egg- which is inescapably relevant for those interested in having biological children- a label is there mainly so someone can judge themselves and be judged by others against the category it specifies. That in mind, it's useful to think about whether our goal is to better judge a person on the basis of their sexuality (which would indicate more labels) or to not judge a person on the basis of their sexuality at all (which would indicate no labels).
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Arcturus Novus
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Postby Arcturus Novus » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:16 pm

Lutore wrote:
Arcturus Novus wrote:I think you mean, As a trans woman,


I'd argue that a lot of people, especially trans people, find a lot of comfort in their gender though. It's important to who we are, to our personal stories. I'm not just a person, I'm a woman - more importantly, I'm a trans woman. I don't see myself ever identifying otherwise.


But you'd agree telling someone they should act a certain way based on their sex is wrong right? Because that's the main belief. Gender is just the characteristics of masculine or feminine traits and gender abolitionism says a "biological man" or "biological female" shouldn't have to act feminine or masculine just because of their biological sex

Okay, I think(?) I get your point now. I agree that no one should be confined to acting, dressing, speaking a sort of way based on circumstances they never controlled. But conversely, I think it’s perfectly fine if you wanna be a man, a woman, both, neither, all of the above.
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:18 pm

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:Can we abolish race as a concept?


Based. Let's do it.

Auzkhia wrote:
Arcturus Novus wrote:I think you mean, As a trans woman,

Ha nice, though like her, I'm probably a lesbian now, it's complicated, I just say queer. All I know is that girls and enbies are hot, don't really find men that attractive, except maybe if they're really fem or some fictional ones.


I believe the term you're looking for is "gynephile" then.

That is, sexual attraction to femininity. Like me.
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Postby Disgraces » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:20 pm

The words gender and sex were separated by a crazy scientist. A womanly man is still a man. A manly woman is still a woman.
Last edited by Disgraces on Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lutore
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Postby Lutore » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:27 pm

Arcturus Novus wrote:
Lutore wrote:
But you'd agree telling someone they should act a certain way based on their sex is wrong right? Because that's the main belief. Gender is just the characteristics of masculine or feminine traits and gender abolitionism says a "biological man" or "biological female" shouldn't have to act feminine or masculine just because of their biological sex

Okay, I think(?) I get your point now. I agree that no one should be confined to acting, dressing, speaking a sort of way based on circumstances they never controlled. But conversely, I think it’s perfectly fine if you wanna be a man, a woman, both, neither, all of the above.


If you identify as a man, woman, both, neither, or all of the above regardless of whether you're cis or trans I would agree is perfectly fine. I just more believe that saying men wear suits and women wear dresses or men have short hair and women have long hair is pretty dumb and unnecessary. I do also believe I could've explained the point way better than I did

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Postby Xanthal » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:29 pm

Disgraces wrote:The words gender and sex were separated by a crazy scientist. A womanly man is still a man. A manly woman is still a woman.

Whether you agree with the idea that gender should be fluid or not, it's still useful to understand that the biological parts you have is not an identical concept to the rules and expectations society applies to people who have those parts. That's really all that separating the ideas of "sex" and "gender" is.
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Postby SD_Film Artists » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:29 pm

Arcturus Novus wrote:. I'm not just a person, I'm a woman - more importantly, I'm a trans woman. I don't see myself ever identifying otherwise.


I thought the goal of transgender was to be the opposite gender than the one at birth. Doesn’t identifying as a trans woman as well as/instead of a woman undermine that? It sounds like you're playing into the exact 'otherness' which transphobes would promote.
Last edited by SD_Film Artists on Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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