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What would happen if Turkey joined the European union?

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Erskentania
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What would happen if Turkey joined the European union?

Postby Erskentania » Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:36 pm

Since Turkey's proposal to join the European Union has been rejected for a long time... Why don't they let them join? and What would happenn if they finally join?

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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:47 pm

Erskentania wrote:Why don't they let them join?
Because they're headed by a dictator.
What would happenn if they finally join?

There would be pressure to democratize.
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The Lone Alliance
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Postby The Lone Alliance » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:53 pm

Erskentania wrote:Since Turkey's proposal to join the European Union has been rejected for a long time... Why don't they let them join?

Because Erdoğan is a dictator.

Erskentania wrote:and What would happenn if they finally join?

As long as the current regime rules Turkey there isn't going to be anything like that, the EU has enough problem with Hungary and Poland acting like borderline Authoritarian states, they don't need Turkey making it worse.
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Baltenstein
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Postby Baltenstein » Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:40 am

Sundiata wrote:
Erskentania wrote:There would be pressure to democratize.



Countries like Poland and Hungary (and not just them, we are seeing similar developments in Bulgaria, Romania and from what I'm hearing Slovenia too) indiciate otherwise.

That is of course if you define "democracy" in terms of checks and balances and separation of powers. If you go by a definition of democracy as the will of the majority, Poland and Hungary are probably very democratic.
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:03 am

Erskentania wrote:Since Turkey's proposal to join the European Union has been rejected for a long time... Why don't they let them join?

It hasn't been rejected. It's on hold, waiting for Turkey to proceed on the reforms required as per accession candidacy agreements, just like any other applicant.
So far, Turkey has refused to proceed on the road towards EU standards and it has actually rolled back in a lot of fields, so, it's not a matter of the EU refusing to let them join, it's a matter of Turkey not wanting to.

and What would happenn if they finally join?

They won't in any foreseeable future. And considering what are the political likings of the majority of Turks, the EU is better off without Turkey; sorry for the rest of the Turkish population, if they want to come and live in a land of rule of law and democracy they can immigrate.
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Baltenstein
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Postby Baltenstein » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:05 am

Risottia wrote:
Erskentania wrote:Since Turkey's proposal to join the European Union has been rejected for a long time... Why don't they let them join?

It hasn't been rejected. It's on hold, waiting for Turkey to proceed on the reforms required as per accession candidacy agreements, just like any other applicant.
So far, Turkey has refused to proceed on the road towards EU standards and it has actually rolled back in a lot of fields, so, it's not a matter of the EU refusing to let them join, it's a matter of Turkey not wanting to.

and What would happenn if they finally join?

They won't in any foreseeable future. And considering what are the political likings of the majority of Turks, the EU is better off without Turkey; sorry for the rest of the Turkish population, if they want to come and live in a land of rule of law and democracy they can immigrate.


It looks like Erdogan's autocracy is fine for a great many people, as long as they personally don't have to deal with its consequences, economical or otherwise.
Last edited by Baltenstein on Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:14 am

Baltenstein wrote:
Risottia wrote:It hasn't been rejected. It's on hold, waiting for Turkey to proceed on the reforms required as per accession candidacy agreements, just like any other applicant.
So far, Turkey has refused to proceed on the road towards EU standards and it has actually rolled back in a lot of fields, so, it's not a matter of the EU refusing to let them join, it's a matter of Turkey not wanting to.


They won't in any foreseeable future. And considering what are the political likings of the majority of Turks, the EU is better off without Turkey; sorry for the rest of the Turkish population, if they want to come and live in a land of rule of law and democracy they can immigrate.


It looks like Erdogan's autocracy is fine for a great many people, as long as they personally don't have to deal with its consequences, economical or otherwise.


Yep. That's why I think that long-time residents (let's say 10+ years? 20+ ?) from extra-EU/EEA countries should be given the choice between taking an EU citizenship and relinquishing the original one, or leaving the EU.
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Kilobugya
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Postby Kilobugya » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:30 am

Erskentania wrote:Since Turkey's proposal to join the European Union has been rejected for a long time... Why don't they let them join? and What would happenn if they finally join?


There are three main reasons for that.

The first, obvious and official one, is that Turkey doesn't meet EU standards. Erdogan's respect for human rights and democracy is just lacking. Sure it's also the case of some current EU country, but it mostly happened after they already joined, so it's slightly different.

The second is that the EU is pretty dysfunctional right now, and has many crisis it's unable to tackle properly, so it's definitely not the best time to open the door to new members, especially big ones. EU needs to reform and strengthen before growing, or it'll collapse.

The third is, sadly, racism from many of EU members, who just don't want to open the door to a country where the majority is Muslim. That's unfortunate (I believe we shouldn't extend to Turkey right for now the first two reasons, but I strongly oppose the third one), but that's a reality we'll have to deal with.
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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:49 am

The Lone Alliance wrote:
Erskentania wrote:Since Turkey's proposal to join the European Union has been rejected for a long time... Why don't they let them join?

Because Erdoğan is a dictator.

Erskentania wrote:and What would happenn if they finally join?

As long as the current regime rules Turkey there isn't going to be anything like that, the EU has enough problem with Hungary and Poland acting like borderline Authoritarian states, they don't need Turkey making it worse.
That's one of the reasons, but it's not enough. The door of the European Union will not be opened to Turks unless political Islam ends.
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Postby Crabaiaia » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:51 am

Turkey will be forced to recognize Armenian Genocide and fix relations with Greece, or be forced to stripped of voting rights
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Baltenstein
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Postby Baltenstein » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:07 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
The Lone Alliance wrote:Because Erdoğan is a dictator.


As long as the current regime rules Turkey there isn't going to be anything like that, the EU has enough problem with Hungary and Poland acting like borderline Authoritarian states, they don't need Turkey making it worse.
That's one of the reasons, but it's not enough. The door of the European Union will not be opened to Turks unless political Islam ends.
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A Turkish state ruled by your (as in you, Hakinda, not you, the Turks) particular mindset won't ever enter the EU either. Just so you know.
O'er the hills and o'er the main.
Through Flanders, Portugal and Spain.
King George commands and we obey.
Over the hills and far away.


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-Ocelot-
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Postby -Ocelot- » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:53 am

Turkey would have to fill a lot of criteria and even then I'm not sure the EU wants to factor in a country of 80 million people that would most likely be a net loss for a long time in their budget.

2021 Turkey is moving away from the EU and they'd have to change a lot of things before joining. With this government, they are unfit to join the EU.

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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:01 am

-Ocelot- wrote:Turkey would have to fill a lot of criteria and even then I'm not sure the EU wants to factor in a country of 80 million people that would most likely be a net loss for a long time in their budget.

2021 Turkey is moving away from the EU and they'd have to change a lot of things before joining. With this government, they are unfit to join the EU.
Do not worry approaching early elections in Turkey and Kemalist social democrats in this election will be in power. The Kemalists will not make the mistakes political Islamists make. I have no doubts that we can have good relations with Europe.
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Postby The Islands of Versilia » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:04 am

I’d be more than happy that the United Kingdom left it. The EU governments shouldn’t be enabling Turkey, much less support it by allowing it into the European Union. Besides, I don’t consider Anatolia to be Europe so Turkey is automatically disqualified on the grounds it isn’t in Europe nor European.
Last edited by The Islands of Versilia on Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby -Ocelot- » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:05 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
-Ocelot- wrote:Turkey would have to fill a lot of criteria and even then I'm not sure the EU wants to factor in a country of 80 million people that would most likely be a net loss for a long time in their budget.

2021 Turkey is moving away from the EU and they'd have to change a lot of things before joining. With this government, they are unfit to join the EU.
Do not worry approaching early elections in Turkey and Kemalist social democrats in this election will be in power. The Kemalists will not make the mistakes political Islamists make. I have no doubts that we can have good relations with Europe.


As a Greek, I hope Turkey becomes more friendly not only towards its neighbors but also towards its NATO allies. I'm not sure if Kemalists will be better for their country or the region as a whole.

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Kilobugya
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Postby Kilobugya » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:06 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Do not worry approaching early elections in Turkey and Kemalist social democrats in this election will be in power. The Kemalists will not make the mistakes political Islamists make. I have no doubts that we can have good relations with Europe.


If Kemalists stick to the original nationalism of Kemal Atatürk, including the negation of Armenian genocide, oppression against Kurds, and aggressive behavior toward Cyprus, it won't fit well into the EU proclaimed value. Now it's true that the EU is sometimes a bunch of hypocrites, and can "forget" about their values for economical reasons, at least to a point. Just see how they pandered with Erdogan just to get him do their dirty work in "controlling immigration".

If those Kemalists only keep the secularism and furture-oriented mindset from Kemal Atatürk, but accept to have a more tolerant and less aggressive attitude towards other cultures (Armenian, Kurds, Cypriotes) then perhaps something can be done.
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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:18 am

-Ocelot- wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Do not worry approaching early elections in Turkey and Kemalist social democrats in this election will be in power. The Kemalists will not make the mistakes political Islamists make. I have no doubts that we can have good relations with Europe.


As a Greek, I hope Turkey becomes more friendly not only towards its neighbors but also towards its NATO allies. I'm not sure if Kemalists will be better for their country or the region as a whole.
It will be good for all of us because all we need to know is that political Islamists are always bad, just like the people who adopted the idea of ​​the Megali Idea. I dream of a future without borders that separate us.
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Last edited by Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum on Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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-Ocelot-
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Postby -Ocelot- » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:29 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
-Ocelot- wrote:
As a Greek, I hope Turkey becomes more friendly not only towards its neighbors but also towards its NATO allies. I'm not sure if Kemalists will be better for their country or the region as a whole.
It will be good for all of us because all we need to know is that political Islamists are always bad, just like the people who adopted the idea of ​​the Megali Idea. I dream of a future without borders that separate us.
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Agree with you, but getting rid of Erdogan's Islamist government is half the battle. Turkey would still have to be financially viable for the EU, which I'm not sure if it's possible at this moment.

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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:24 am

One of the more interesting side-effects from an Orthodox Christian perspective would be that the Turkish government would - assuming freedom of movement applies - no longer be able to restrict the office of Ecumenical Patriarch to Turkish citizens. It would theoretically be open to any Orthodox EU citizen. Since there are now only roughly 3-5 thousand ethnic Greek citizens of the Republic of Turkey, and the Turkish government closed the only remaining Orthodox seminary back in 1971 under the pretext of banning private higher education institution, the pool of potential patriarchs to replace Bartholomew (born in 1940, when there were rather more Greeks in Turkey) is obviously limited.

Now, should it become impossible to maintain the Patriarchate of Constantinople in its historical home over the next couple of decades, it would likely simply move - perhaps to Mount Athos, which is under the Patriarch's direct jurisdiction. But all the same... anyone in favour of keeping the patriarchate in its traditional home can't be entirely opposed to Turkish EU membership.


I freely acknowledge that as a side-effect it's a relatively minor one as far as most Europeans are concerned; but the irony would be delicious.

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Postby Baltenstein » Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:30 am

The Archregimancy wrote:One of the more interesting side-effects from an Orthodox Christian perspective would be that the Turkish government would - assuming freedom of movement applies - no longer be able to restrict the office of Ecumenical Patriarch to Turkish citizens.


Is that actually true, though? What if Turkey becomes a member...and then continues its policies of slowly erasing the Patriarchate anyway. It's not as if the EU could send an army to enforce church policies on the Turkish state.
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The Islands of Versilia
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Postby The Islands of Versilia » Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:46 am

Baltenstein wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:One of the more interesting side-effects from an Orthodox Christian perspective would be that the Turkish government would - assuming freedom of movement applies - no longer be able to restrict the office of Ecumenical Patriarch to Turkish citizens.


Is that actually true, though? What if Turkey becomes a member...and then continues its policies of slowly erasing the Patriarchate anyway. It's not as if the EU could send an army to enforce church policies on the Turkish state.


If only :(
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Postby Bienenhalde » Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:28 am

The EU already has enough problems dealing with lack of rule of law and human rights abuses in Hungary and Poland.
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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:43 am

Bienenhalde wrote:The EU already has enough problems dealing with lack of rule of law and human rights abuses in Hungary and Poland.
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:44 am

Oh God please no.
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Postby GRHB puppet » Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:45 am

if Turkey joins the EU everyone is going to wear a fez

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