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Politics of Settling Space

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Tokora
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Politics of Settling Space

Postby Tokora » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:02 pm

Fairly easy question, if enough people get the desire to leave this rock for a new world (say Mars for example) how would that be done politically? Would the colonies be controlled by the nation of origin, or would they be independent from the start? Would a NGO (like a political or religious movement) have the resources to migrate? Does the Outer Space Treaty ban settlement at all? The moment colonists step onto the new world, who's in charge?

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:29 pm

Would it be possible to flesh out the OP a little bit?
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Resilient Acceleration
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Postby Resilient Acceleration » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:41 pm

So it's the question of space governance.

I'm not sure. The Outer Space Treaty ban national claims of celestial bodies, but other than that, it's a bit unclear. Especially regarding lunar and asteroid mining, which could be one of the largest industry of the future. Who will enforce laws and private property there? Will there be private property at all? Will we see the rise of mecha space marines combating mecha space pirates trying to take over SpaceX mineral shipments? Nontheless, it's pretty exciting to think about it.

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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:43 pm

I imagine it will be somewhat akin to the British East Indies Company.
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The Emerald Legion
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Postby The Emerald Legion » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:27 pm

Honestly, I seriously doubt any terrestrial authority will be able to effectively rule over a martian colony. Any support given by an earthborn nation would face an immense time lag between launch and arrival. Like, suppose there's an insurrection on mars. It would take seven months to get any aid there. Not to mention in all likelyhood requiring local assistance to land any sizeable body of troops safely.
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:28 pm

We'll deal with space traitors the same way we deal with Earth traitors: burn Georgia. :p
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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:45 pm

If we start seriously colonizing space is bet my money on a new treaty/series of treaties being drawn up.

Saying space is owned by no one is all well and good when no one actually lives there, but if we start building colonies that’ll no longer be the case.
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Postauthoritarian America
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Postby Postauthoritarian America » Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:52 pm

Since anyone headed for Mars would be dead long before they arrived, the point is moot. Under the Outer Space Treaty no nation may claim sovereignty over any celestial body. That obviously would apply to portions of any celestial body such as the Moon, as well as to any putative independent colony formed by Earthlings.
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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:55 pm

Postauthoritarian America wrote:Since anyone headed for Mars would be dead long before they arrived,

Where the hell are you getting that?
the point is moot. Under the Outer Space Treaty no nation may claim sovereignty over any celestial body. That obviously would apply to portions of any celestial body such as the Moon, as well as to any putative independent colony formed by Earthlings.

We didn’t exactly follow the treaty of Tordesillas very long when it came to colonizing the Americas.
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:02 pm

The Emerald Legion wrote:Honestly, I seriously doubt any terrestrial authority will be able to effectively rule over a martian colony. Any support given by an earthborn nation would face an immense time lag between launch and arrival. Like, suppose there's an insurrection on mars. It would take seven months to get any aid there. Not to mention in all likelyhood requiring local assistance to land any sizeable body of troops safely.

any insurrection would also find itself cut off from any earth support, communications, and supplies
not a great recipie
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Postauthoritarian America
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Postby Postauthoritarian America » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:03 pm

Adamede wrote:
Postauthoritarian America wrote:Since anyone headed for Mars would be dead long before they arrived,

Where the hell are you getting that?
the point is moot. Under the Outer Space Treaty no nation may claim sovereignty over any celestial body. That obviously would apply to portions of any celestial body such as the Moon, as well as to any putative independent colony formed by Earthlings.

We didn’t exactly follow the treaty of Tordesillas very long when it came to colonizing the Americas.


Their brains would be fried by radiation, their heart and lungs atrophied in conditions of microgravity or their capsule turned into Swiss cheese and all the air leaked out by micrometeorites. Take your pick. Assuming they got there they would again either suffocate within days or have to live in such an oxygen-rich environment that dropping a fork would start a fire. Again, take your pick. Dead people don't make good space colonists either way.

Re: Tordesillas, who do you mean by "we," Spain or Portugal? Those were the only parties to the treaty. England, France, et. al. claimed territory in the New World under the doctrine of discovery. This despite the fact of the substantial native populations there. I suppose any native Martians or Lunatics would have to file their own objections
Last edited by Postauthoritarian America on Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:04 pm

The Emerald Legion wrote:Honestly, I seriously doubt any terrestrial authority will be able to effectively rule over a martian colony. Any support given by an earthborn nation would face an immense time lag between launch and arrival. Like, suppose there's an insurrection on mars. It would take seven months to get any aid there. Not to mention in all likelyhood requiring local assistance to land any sizeable body of troops safely.

Just put a couple of killsats in orbit and if the colony get uppity blast them.

Anyway and colony is goin go to be dependent on earth. We are a long way off form making self sustaining artificial habitats.
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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:06 pm

Postauthoritarian America wrote:
Adamede wrote:Where the hell are you getting that?

We didn’t exactly follow the treaty of Tordesillas very long when it came to colonizing the Americas.


Their brains would be fried by radiation, their heart and lungs atrophied in conditions of microgravity or their capsule turned into Swiss cheese and all the air leaked out by micrometeorites. Take your pick. Assuming they got there they would again either suffocate within days or have to live in such an oxygen-rich environment that dropping a fork would start a fire. Again, take your pick. Dead people don't make good space colonists either way.

Sounds like problems that can be overcome with advancements in technology, not something that is a physical law that cannot be broken like light speed.

Some of the brightest minds in the world are working on creating space colonies, and it’s still seen by most in the scientific community as a worthwhile endeavor. I think that speaks enough for itself.
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Pro: Democracy, 1st & 2nd Amendments, Science, Conservation, Nuclear, universal healthcare, Equality regardless of race, creed, or sexual orientation.
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The Emerald Legion
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Postby The Emerald Legion » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:09 pm

Kowani wrote:
The Emerald Legion wrote:Honestly, I seriously doubt any terrestrial authority will be able to effectively rule over a martian colony. Any support given by an earthborn nation would face an immense time lag between launch and arrival. Like, suppose there's an insurrection on mars. It would take seven months to get any aid there. Not to mention in all likelyhood requiring local assistance to land any sizeable body of troops safely.

any insurrection would also find itself cut off from any earth support, communications, and supplies
not a great recipie


I mean, being reliant on earth for support, communications, or supplies is kind of a worse situation to begin with. I'm assuming any colonization effort has to be able to support itself on just what's there and an initial supply dump. Because seven months is a hell of a time to wait for some food and toilet paper.
"23.The unwise man is awake all night, and ponders everything over; when morning comes he is weary in mind, and all is a burden as ever." - Havamal

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Postauthoritarian America
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Postby Postauthoritarian America » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:12 pm

Adamede wrote:
Postauthoritarian America wrote:
Their brains would be fried by radiation, their heart and lungs atrophied in conditions of microgravity or their capsule turned into Swiss cheese and all the air leaked out by micrometeorites. Take your pick. Assuming they got there they would again either suffocate within days or have to live in such an oxygen-rich environment that dropping a fork would start a fire. Again, take your pick. Dead people don't make good space colonists either way.

Sounds like problems that can be overcome with advancements in technology, not something that is a physical law that cannot be broken like light speed.

Some of the brightest minds in the world are working on creating space colonies, and it’s still seen by most in the scientific community as a worthwhile endeavor. I think that speaks enough for itself.


Some day the human race may enlighten itself to the point where we no longer sacrifice our best and brightest to our vain conceit that there is any place in the known cosmos that can sustain human life except Earth. There is no Planet B.
8:46 | "There are but two parties now: traitors and patriots. And I want hereafter to be ranked with the latter and, I trust, the stronger party." -- Ulysses S. Grant, 1861 | "You don't get mulligans in insurrection." | "It is long past time to admit the blindingly obvious: the Republican party has been hijacked by fascist extremists. It is now a far-right organization in league with neo-Nazis who have made it painfully clear they want to overthrow democracy and seize power, using violence if necessary." | "I didn't vote to overturn an election, and I will not be lectured by people who did about partisanship." -- Rep. Gerry Connolly

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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:13 pm

The Emerald Legion wrote:
Kowani wrote:any insurrection would also find itself cut off from any earth support, communications, and supplies
not a great recipie


I mean, being reliant on earth for support, communications, or supplies is kind of a worse situation to begin with. I'm assuming any colonization effort has to be able to support itself on just what's there and an initial supply dump. Because seven months is a hell of a time to wait for some food and toilet paper.


Matt Damon managed it.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

十年

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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:15 pm

Bombadil wrote:
The Emerald Legion wrote:
I mean, being reliant on earth for support, communications, or supplies is kind of a worse situation to begin with. I'm assuming any colonization effort has to be able to support itself on just what's there and an initial supply dump. Because seven months is a hell of a time to wait for some food and toilet paper.


Matt Damon managed it.

I’ll pass on the night soil potatoes.
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Pro: Democracy, 1st & 2nd Amendments, Science, Conservation, Nuclear, universal healthcare, Equality regardless of race, creed, or sexual orientation.
Neutral : Feminism, anarchism
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Stellar Colonies
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:53 pm

Postauthoritarian America wrote:
Adamede wrote:Sounds like problems that can be overcome with advancements in technology, not something that is a physical law that cannot be broken like light speed.

Some of the brightest minds in the world are working on creating space colonies, and it’s still seen by most in the scientific community as a worthwhile endeavor. I think that speaks enough for itself.


Some day the human race may enlighten itself to the point where we no longer sacrifice our best and brightest to our vain conceit that there is any place in the known cosmos that can sustain human life except Earth. There is no Planet B.

Not yet.

If we do attain the technology necessary to expand into space, which is merely an engineering problem (I'm including life and ecosystem support under this), interplanetary travel and settlement is pretty much inevitable, albeit difficult. The main challenge would probably be enough phosphorus, which is, to put it mildly, a big problem.

That said, interstellar travel involving people is likely not remotely possible anytime soon.
Last edited by Stellar Colonies on Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Cordel One
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Postby Cordel One » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:59 pm

I want to see space treated as neutral international territory, but it won't be if the robber barons continue to dominate it as an industry.
Last edited by Cordel One on Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Emerald Legion
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Postby The Emerald Legion » Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:01 pm

Postauthoritarian America wrote:
Adamede wrote:Sounds like problems that can be overcome with advancements in technology, not something that is a physical law that cannot be broken like light speed.

Some of the brightest minds in the world are working on creating space colonies, and it’s still seen by most in the scientific community as a worthwhile endeavor. I think that speaks enough for itself.


Some day the human race may enlighten itself to the point where we no longer sacrifice our best and brightest to our vain conceit that there is any place in the known cosmos that can sustain human life except Earth. There is no Planet B.


Nonsense. It exists, therefor it must be conquered.
"23.The unwise man is awake all night, and ponders everything over; when morning comes he is weary in mind, and all is a burden as ever." - Havamal

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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:03 pm

The Emerald Legion wrote:
Postauthoritarian America wrote:
Some day the human race may enlighten itself to the point where we no longer sacrifice our best and brightest to our vain conceit that there is any place in the known cosmos that can sustain human life except Earth. There is no Planet B.


Nonsense. It exists, therefor it must be conquered.


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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:09 pm

Lets have it become like the Gundam universe where the peoples on Earth and in the space colonies evolve separately to the point where the space colonies rebel against the Earth for autonomy/self rule, and there is regular warfare between and perhaps within the two worlds.

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UniversalCommons
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Postby UniversalCommons » Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:02 pm

Industrialization of space happens before settlement. First space tourism, then asteroid mining, moon mining, solar power satellites, and other industries.

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Stellar Colonies
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:45 pm

Saiwania wrote:Lets have it become like the Gundam universe where the peoples on Earth and in the space colonies evolve separately to the point where the space colonies rebel against the Earth for autonomy/self rule, and there is regular warfare between and perhaps within the two worlds.

The spectre of nuclear intra-planetary war between countries on the same planet is horrifying enough, but the WMDs of interplanetary war would likely be to nukes what nukes are to conventional bombs.

You would not want regular warfare between fully developed nation-worlds.
344 days since local 'stay-at-home order' was announced

Native of The East Pacific and Northern California


Stellar Colonies is a loose confederacy comprised from most of the human-settled parts of the galaxy.

Ida Station is the only Confederate member state permitted to join the WA.
An Incomplete List of Ida's Interpretations of WA Resolutions

Add 3000 years for the date I use.
If you want a mental image of me: Straight(?), white male.

I try to be objective, but I do have some biases.

I don't think the political compass is
fully accurate, but here are my results:

X-Axis: -5.38
Y-Axis: -2.62

Also, I'm diagnosed as a high-functioning autistic.

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Northern Socialist Council Republics
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Founded: Dec 13, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Northern Socialist Council Republics » Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:48 pm

Stellar Colonies wrote:You would not want regular warfare between fully developed nation-worlds.

Like a real-life game of Interplanetary? I suppose that would be very interesting, in the sense of the "may you live in interesting times" kind of interesting.
Last edited by Northern Socialist Council Republics on Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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