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Shall Gulf Monarchies be abolished?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Shall Gulf Monarchies be abolished?

Yes
36
34%
No
45
42%
Neutral
20
19%
Other (please explain)
5
5%
 
Total votes : 106

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Nekostan-e Gharbi
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Shall Gulf Monarchies be abolished?

Postby Nekostan-e Gharbi » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:12 pm

Saudi Arabia is a highly authoritarian political entity that treats its own female subjects including even princesses like shit. Even nominally nicer ones such as Dubai are actually as nasty as Riyadh as what the misfortune of Princess Latifa has revealed.

If human rights actually exist then they must also apply to subjects of Gulf monarchies. Their abolition is a necessity just like the universal abolition of slavery. Even the current regime of Iran is nowhere as horrible as these entities in terms of women’s rights.

What do you guys think, NSG?

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Last edited by Nekostan-e Gharbi on Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:15 pm

That’s no one else’s business other than the citizens of those nations.

Everyone is all for spreading democracy and human rights until it eventually turns into a shit show and nothing was improved.
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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:16 pm

Neocon logic aside, I believe that Saudi-Arabia should be abolished and the terretories be given back to the rightful claimant with is the current King of Jordan whose ancestors were driven out from the holy sites by the Al-Saud usurpators.

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Nekostan-e Gharbi
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Postby Nekostan-e Gharbi » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:18 pm

Adamede wrote:That’s no one else’s business other than the citizens of those nations.

Everyone is all for spreading democracy and human rights until it eventually turns into a shit show and nothing was improved.


> Implying that citizens actually exist in these political entities

The correct word is of course “subject”.
Last edited by Nekostan-e Gharbi on Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Welcome to the Nekostan-e Gharbi. Our ancestors were a group of genetically enhanced Israeli cats raised by two Iranian Jewish women, Rachel Davidi and Esther Moshel. We are a constitutional monarchy where a line of benevolent and powerless feline queens “guide” the citizens or more precisely are the subject of their constant gossiping.

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Current Prime Minister: Dr. Elisheva Cohen (she is fine with Elizabeth for non-Hebrew speakers) from Likud
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Velyka-Ukrayina
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Postby Velyka-Ukrayina » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:21 pm

Nakena wrote:Neocon logic aside, I believe that Saudi-Arabia should be abolished and the terretories be given back to the rightful claimant with is the current King of Jordan whose ancestors were driven out from the holy sites by the Al-Saud usurpators.


I wholeheartedly agree with this post.

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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:25 pm

Yes, but Saudi Arabia is a tough country to restart.
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Celritannia
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Postby Celritannia » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:35 pm

Sundiata wrote:Yes, but Saudi Arabia is a tough country to restart.


If the US was able to destabilised Iraq and allow it to fall into chaos, I don't see why it cannot do the same for Saudi Arabia.

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Tinhampton
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Postby Tinhampton » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:37 pm

Whom does OP propose should rule what he describes as the "Gulf Monarchies?" No answer until I get that answer :P
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Celritannia
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Postby Celritannia » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:37 pm

Tinhampton wrote:Whom does OP propose should rule what he describes as the "Gulf Monarchies?" No answer until I get that answer :P


Lichtenstein.

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Nekostan-e Gharbi
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Postby Nekostan-e Gharbi » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:41 pm

Tinhampton wrote:Whom does OP propose should rule what he describes as the "Gulf Monarchies?" No answer until I get that answer :P


A social liberal state of course.
Welcome to the Nekostan-e Gharbi. Our ancestors were a group of genetically enhanced Israeli cats raised by two Iranian Jewish women, Rachel Davidi and Esther Moshel. We are a constitutional monarchy where a line of benevolent and powerless feline queens “guide” the citizens or more precisely are the subject of their constant gossiping.

Current Queen: Sarah IV (House of Moshel)
Current Prime Minister: Dr. Elisheva Cohen (she is fine with Elizabeth for non-Hebrew speakers) from Likud
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Abolish China and save lives.
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Resilient Acceleration
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Postby Resilient Acceleration » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:43 pm

Replaced by?

If the answer is "far more radical Islamist despot states", or "Libya 2.0", or both, the answer is "no". But there are good geopolitical reasons on why a restructured Middle East might be better for stability in the long run, outside of pesky arguments such as "human rights". The borders are completely arbitrary and the future of Gulf stability, populated by dictatorial states funded by oil exports, is precarious if we consider the possible collapse of the fossil fuel market in the next 10-20 years. UAE's Dubai might be the exception as it's trying to become an international hub of business and finance, but outside of that, it's pretty precarious.

Saudi Arabia in particular, the world's largest state sponsor of terrorism, needs to be keep in check. I mean, it's not like the Saudi royal family sympathizes with ISIS or similar movements. They fund them (at least at the start) because it aligns with their geopolitical interest of keeping Iran and pro-Iran states at bay. Iraq and Yemen in particular, due to their high Shia population, is a grave concern. Also for this reason, the US's agenda of simultaneously 1) defeating terrorism and 2) containing Iran is pretty much doomed to fail as they contradict eachother, the US can only pick one.

To be honest though, I don't see how "abolish the monarchies" can end peacefully. My best hope is currently for a transition akin to Jordan.
Last edited by Resilient Acceleration on Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Celritannia
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Postby Celritannia » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:43 pm

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
Tinhampton wrote:Whom does OP propose should rule what he describes as the "Gulf Monarchies?" No answer until I get that answer :P


A social liberal state of course.


Because that went so well with Iraq /s.

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Nekostan-e Gharbi
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Postby Nekostan-e Gharbi » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:46 pm

Celritannia wrote:
Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
A social liberal state of course.


Because that went so well with Iraq /s.


That hasn’t actually happened. US did not literally patrol all of Iraq and stamped out cultural authoritarianism.
Welcome to the Nekostan-e Gharbi. Our ancestors were a group of genetically enhanced Israeli cats raised by two Iranian Jewish women, Rachel Davidi and Esther Moshel. We are a constitutional monarchy where a line of benevolent and powerless feline queens “guide” the citizens or more precisely are the subject of their constant gossiping.

Current Queen: Sarah IV (House of Moshel)
Current Prime Minister: Dr. Elisheva Cohen (she is fine with Elizabeth for non-Hebrew speakers) from Likud
Cats rule; dogs drool; Israel rocks; China sucks.
Abolish China and save lives.
What is Sinostatism?
Must read on China by David Goldman https://www.tabletmag.com/amp/sections/ ... ina-empire

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Celritannia
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Postby Celritannia » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:47 pm

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
Because that went so well with Iraq /s.


That hasn’t actually happened. US did not literally patrol all of Iraq and stamped out cultural authoritarianism.


And you think it has a chance with Saudi Arabia, with a far larger territory, and oil it sells to the US?

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Resilient Acceleration
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Postby Resilient Acceleration » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:56 pm

Celritannia wrote:
Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
That hasn’t actually happened. US did not literally patrol all of Iraq and stamped out cultural authoritarianism.


And you think it has a chance with Saudi Arabia, with a far larger territory, and oil it sells to the US?

The US is growing more and more self-reliant on energy due to fracking, and energy trade from the middle east now makes up a small percentage in the oil/gas supply.

But yeah, no. Declaring war on 6 heavily armed gulf states –with a history of close military cooperation with the US– during an economic crisis, crush Islamist influence throughout the population by force (how would that happen exactly is beyond me), and then construct a full-blown economically prosperous liberal democracy free of Iraq-like insurgents in its place, while ignoring the explosion of Iranian influence, all of this done for no reason in a geopolitical point of view is pretty much doomed to fail. At least Saddam Hussein gassed his own citizens and was accused of having nukes. Not to mention the economic collapse the rest of the world will experience due to such a sudden shock in the oil supply.
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:59 pm

Celritannia wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Yes, but Saudi Arabia is a tough country to restart.


If the US was able to destabilised Iraq and allow it to fall into chaos, I don't see why it cannot do the same for Saudi Arabia.

Iraq was in chaos when the United States arrived. The issue with Iraq is that the United States isn't prepared to finish what it started. We established a democracy but because democracy is so delicate, a stronger American presence is necessary in the region.
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Celritannia
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Postby Celritannia » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:00 pm

Sundiata wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
If the US was able to destabilised Iraq and allow it to fall into chaos, I don't see why it cannot do the same for Saudi Arabia.

Iraq was in chaos when the United States arrived. The issue with Iraq is that the United States isn't prepared to finish what it started. Ok, we established a democracy but because democracy is so delicate, a stronger American presence is necessary in the region.


No, Iraq was not in chaos before the US entered.

The US created a power vacuum and caused more problems.
We have been over this.

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Postby Cinnibar » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:01 pm

The more coastal monarchies will live longer than Saudi Arabia, in my opinion. The Sauds will probably be replaced by another Monarchical clan from within Arabia within 100 years time. Nothing will truly change because most people are fine with a good chunk of the status quo through either generational indoctrination or actual respect for the status quo. That's my uninformed opinion on the matter. Back to you.

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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:01 pm

Celritannia wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Iraq was in chaos when the United States arrived. The issue with Iraq is that the United States isn't prepared to finish what it started. Ok, we established a democracy but because democracy is so delicate, a stronger American presence is necessary in the region.


No, Iraq was not in chaos before the US entered.

The US created a power vacuum and caused more problems.
We have been over this.

I disagree, Saddam Hussein was hardly the paragon of order and neither is ISIS.
Last edited by Sundiata on Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Celritannia
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Postby Celritannia » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:03 pm

Sundiata wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
No, Iraq was not in chaos before the US entered.

The US created a power vacuum and caused more problems.
We have been over this.

I disagree, Saddam Hussein was hardly the Paragon of order and neither is ISIS.


I am not saying he was, but at least he kept terrorists at bay.

Perhaps you should read this:
https://www.csis.org/analysis/americas- ... q-and-gulf

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Postby Sanghyeok » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:04 pm

Sundiata wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
If the US was able to destabilised Iraq and allow it to fall into chaos, I don't see why it cannot do the same for Saudi Arabia.

Iraq was in chaos when the United States arrived. The issue with Iraq is that the United States isn't prepared to finish what it started. We established a democracy but because democracy is so delicate, a stronger American presence is necessary in the region.


Iraq was perfectly fine until the United States - with the support of both corporate duopoly parties, I must add- invaded them under the false pretense of WMDs, therefore ruining life of millions of innocent Iraqis for generations.
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Resilient Acceleration
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Postby Resilient Acceleration » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:06 pm

Cinnibar wrote:The more coastal monarchies will live longer than Saudi Arabia, in my opinion. The Sauds will probably be replaced by another Monarchical clan from within Arabia within 100 years time. Nothing will truly change because most people are fine with a good chunk of the status quo through either generational indoctrination or actual respect for the status quo. That's my uninformed opinion on the matter. Back to you.

I mean AI singularity, climate change, and the extinction of the fossil fuel economy will already cause so much change to the global situation that predicting what Saudi Arabia will look like by then might be irrelevant.

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Socialist States of Ludistan
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Postby Socialist States of Ludistan » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:07 pm

They shouldn’t be abolished, they should just change their ways.
And if they don’t want to, they should by forced to.
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:08 pm

Celritannia wrote:
Sundiata wrote:I disagree, Saddam Hussein was hardly the Paragon of order and neither is ISIS.


I am not saying he was, but at least he kept terrorists at bay.

Perhaps you should read this:
https://www.csis.org/analysis/americas- ... q-and-gulf

It's a quagmire and the American public is not prepared for six more decades of potential occupation. Like I said before, it was a dumb war.
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Resilient Acceleration
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Postby Resilient Acceleration » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:09 pm

Socialist States of Ludistan wrote:They shouldn’t be abolished, they should just change their ways.
And if they don’t want to, they should by forced to.

How's the procedure, though? Military invasion?
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